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Pokémon: Kyogre upgrades

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StrymULTRA

StrymULTRA

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So, is simple.

We have this evidence for Kyogre:
To do this, is needed 5.6205 Exatons.

This not only bumps all High 6-As, but also makes some upgrades to 5-C.

  • Urshifu > Groudon = Kyogre = 5.6205 Exatons
  • Gigantamax Urshifu is >x5 his base, making it >28.1025 Exatons (High 6-A+)
  • Base Eternatus is stronger than Gigantamax Urshifu, making it baseline 5-C.
  • Eternamax is >>x5 that, making it 148 Exatons
This is pretty much it. Everyone who scales from them gets upgraded too.
 
So. In the manga Kyogre and Groudon match Rayquaza's hyper beam with two of theirs combined and there's generally a theme of Rayquaza being equal to Groudon+Kyogre there. Wouldn't it make more sense to scale them to 1/2 of Ray's 5-B?

(Scans will be sent later)
 
Arceus0x said:
So. In the manga Kyogre and Groudon match Rayquaza's hyper beam with two of theirs combined and there's generally a theme of Rayquaza being equal to Groudon+Kyogre there. Wouldn't it make more sense to scale them to 1/2 of Ray's 5-B?
Click to expand...
Issue. In the games is said that Rayquaza beat the primals. how we handle it?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Issue. In the games is said that Rayquaza beat the primals. how we handle it?
Click to expand...
Doesn't change much. Before, some peow tried to say that he "stomped" them, though that was a lie. It could just mean that Primal Kyogre and Groudon are only stronger to an extent. For all we know they could be just somewhat below Rayquaza or almost comparable to him. He can still beat them even if they are, let's say 1.5x weaker than him.
 
Kyogre and Groudon clash with Rayquaza
pokemon_adventures_262_6.jpg


Kyogre and Groudon match Rayquaza
 
idk what is going on but i can't link the other image

ht tps://im gur.com/a/ pyQiXpF

write the link together to get it
 
Aight, I'm anything but good when it comes to manga scaling, so I really can't have a word there.

I just wanted to point out this small stuff about Kyogre. @GyroNutz might help though.
 
so if i had to say sth, i'd say that the manga is on anime level when it comes to the canonicity heirarchy. Just saying
 
StrymULTRA said:
So, is simple.

We have this evidence for Kyogre:
Click to expand...
Even happens in Pokémon Generations
StrymULTRA said:
To do this, is needed 5.6205 Exatons.

This not only bumps all High 6-As, but also makes some upgrades to 5-C.
Click to expand...
Not knowledgeable about this so I'm going to pass
StrymULTRA said:
  • Urshifu > Groudon = Kyogre = 5.6205 Exatons
  • Gigantamax Urshifu is >x5 his base, making it >28.1025 Exatons (High 6-A+)
  • Base Eternatus is stronger than Gigantamax Urshifu, making it baseline 5-C.
  • Eternamax is >>x5 that, making it 148 Exatons
Click to expand...
Why is Urshifu stronger than Kyogre .
 
Yemma670 said:
Why is Urshifu stronger than Kyogre .
Click to expand...
Urshifu=1 Regi member (the one-shot was an outlier/super effective crit cause later we see the same pokemon having trouble fighting a single regi)
G-Max Urshifu is 5x his base

1 Regi = (Groudon+Kyogre)/3 = 0.67x Groudon

0.67*5=3.33x Groudon
 
Arceus0x said:
Doesn't change much. Before, some peow tried to say that he "stomped" them, though that was a lie. It could just mean that Primal Kyogre and Groudon are only stronger to an extent. For all we know they could be just somewhat below Rayquaza or almost comparable to him. He can still beat them even if they are, let's say 1.5x weaker than him.
Click to expand...
To add more to your points, the anime also suggests the difference isn’t that big when the Primals fight Mega Rayquaza and don’t get blatantly one shotted.

They could do things like stagger Rayquaza with their attacks, or stuff like Primal Kyogre getting hit at point blank range and sent flying by Mega Ray’s hyper beam and tank it.

Mega Ray only wins once it pulled out Dragon Ascent, it’s strongest attack. And the games don’t conflict with this since Mega Ray in the games doesn’t even physically confront them, but rather, wins only by unleashing it’s passive ability to drain their power overtime.

Rayquaza is clearly stronger than Groudon and Kyogre, but the difference isn’t, like, “stomp” level like some people believe.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
To add more to your points, the anime also suggests the difference isn’t that big when the Primals fight Mega Rayquaza and don’t get blatantly one shotted.

They could do things like stagger Rayquaza with their attacks, or stuff like Primal Kyogre getting hit at point blank range and sent flying by Mega Ray’s hyper beam and tank it.

Mega Ray only wins once it pulled out Dragon Ascent, it’s strongest attack. And the games don’t conflict with this since Mega Ray in the games doesn’t even physically confront them, but rather, wins only by unleashing it’s passive ability to drain their power overtime.

Rayquaza is clearly stronger than Groudon and Kyogre, but the difference isn’t, like, “stomp” level like some people believe.
Click to expand...
So the base forms should be higher or still the same or as much as urshifu?
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Maybe Rayquaza Mega Evolved to beat Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre? Considering Rayquaza doesn't need anything to Mega Evolve, this could still work
Click to expand...
even if it didn't mega evolve i've argued on how it could work even without it

Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Base Groudon and Kyogre doesn't even attempt to fight Rayquaza when it showed up in Emerald, so it's pretty clear that Base Rayquaza is >>> Groudon + Kyogre
Click to expand...
I would say that this isn't necessarily the truth either. I am pretty sure that the reason the two were fighting was because the two orbs can mind control them which the two leaders did. Rayquaza just came in and woke em up with the roar i guess. In the manga the two fight Rayquaza with Ray being very clearly 2x above them but not more since it doesn't stomp them and they can tank its full power attacks.
 
Anyways the scaling would now be

Groudon/Kyogre - 448.265 zettatons
P. Groudon/Kyogre - >448.265 zettatons
Regis - 298.843333333 zettatons
Regigas - >298.843333333 zettatons
Urshifu - 298.843333333 zettatons
G-max Urshifu - 1494.21666666 zettatons or 1.49 yottatons
Eternatus - >298.843333333 zettatons
Eternamax Eternatus - >1.49 yottatons
Guildmaster Wigglytuff - >298.843333333 zettatons
 
Arceus0x said:
Anyways the scaling would now be

Groudon/Kyogre - 448.265 zettatons
P. Groudon/Kyogre - >448.265 zettatons
Regis - 298.843333333 zettatons
Regigas - >298.843333333 zettatons
Urshifu - 298.843333333 zettatons
G-max Urshifu - 1494.21666666 zettatons or 1.49 yottatons
Eternatus - >298.843333333 zettatons
Eternamax Eternatus - >1.49 yottatons
Guildmaster Wigglytuff - >298.843333333 zettatons
Click to expand...
What about for zacian and zamazenta?
 
Arceus0x said:
Anyways the scaling would now be

Groudon/Kyogre - 448.265 zettatons
P. Groudon/Kyogre - >448.265 zettatons
Regis - 298.843333333 zettatons
Regigas - >298.843333333 zettatons
Urshifu - 298.843333333 zettatons
G-max Urshifu - 1494.21666666 zettatons or 1.49 yottatons
Eternatus - >298.843333333 zettatons
Eternamax Eternatus - >1.49 yottatons
Guildmaster Wigglytuff - >298.843333333 zettatons
Click to expand...
Eternatus is > G Max Urshifu in its base tho.
 
Arceus0x said:
I would say that this isn't necessarily the truth either. I am pretty sure that the reason the two were fighting was because the two orbs can mind control them which the two leaders did. Rayquaza just came in and woke em up with the roar i guess. In the manga the two fight Rayquaza with Ray being very clearly 2x above them but not more since it doesn't stomp them and they can tank its full power attacks.
Click to expand...
The games should be taken a higher priority regarding canonicity compared to manga or anime adaptations, so Rayquaza being portrayed as being >>> Groudon and Kyogre should be more accurate
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
The games should be taken a higher priority regarding canonicity compared to manga or anime adaptations, so Rayquaza being portrayed as being >>> Groudon and Kyogre should be more accurate
Click to expand...
Except it was never truly portrayed that way and it just came in roared and Groudon and Kyogre left. Unless you've evidence like statements that Ray spooked off the two of them with its strength then i won't agree with you.
 
Arceus0x said:
So. In the manga Kyogre and Groudon match Rayquaza's hyper beam with two of theirs combined and there's generally a theme of Rayquaza being equal to Groudon+Kyogre there. Wouldn't it make more sense to scale them to 1/2 of Ray's 5-B?

(Scans will be sent later)
Click to expand...
Honestly....base Rayquaza being 5-B comes from him scaling to Deoxys who is rated as 5-B because he controlled a 5-B Meteor so I don't really see how that makes Deoxys 5-B in terms of strength and durability while he has no feats, scaling or statements on that level but whatever.

OT : I'm neutral on the upgrade, we don't have any specific time frame for the feat
 
Gohanblanco217 said:
Honestly....base Rayquaza being 5-B comes from him scaling to Deoxys who is rated as 5-B because he controlled a 5-B Meteor so I don't really see how that makes Deoxys 5-B in terms of strength and durability while he has no feats, scaling or statements on that level but whatever.
Click to expand...
Deoxys WAS the meteor itself. Also this is saying that Psychic Type Mons don't physically scale to their own Psychic moves.

Gohanblanco217 said:
OT : I'm neutral on the upgrade, we don't have any specific time frame for the feat
Click to expand...
The calc I linked doesn't need a timeframe lmao.
 
Not to mention Deoxys didn’t get eviscerated as the meteor by Mega Rays Dragon Ascent. It cleaved through the meteor and Deoxys was completely unharmed before battling it.
 
Doubt the calc is applicable to Kyogre.
A) It assumes the water is vaporized form somewhere first before the flooding, which I don't think Kyogre does.
B) It assumes a flooding height of 45m above all land, which isn't indicated for Kyogre.
C) It assumes the flooding was done nigh-instantly, which isn't the case for Kyogre. For Kyogre one would have to divide the result by the amount of seconds the flooding took.
 
DontTalkDT said:
A) It assumes the water is vaporized form somewhere first before the flooding, which I don't think Kyogre does.
B) It assumes a flooding height of 45m above all land, which isn't indicated for Kyogre.
C) It assumes the flooding was done nigh-instantly, which isn't the case for Kyogre. For Kyogre one would have to divide the result by the amount of seconds the flooding took.
Click to expand...
Literally nothing suggest any of those requirements.

It takes as reference the Noah flooding, which is essentially done in the same way Kyogre does.

And Kyogre was treated as quite the immediate threat. They were quite in a hurry defeating it, and calc assumes that it uses a pretty huge rain across all Earth to do so, exactly like Kyogre does lol.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Literally nothing suggest any of those requirements.
Click to expand...
If you use a common feats calc it is your obligation to read through the calc and find the requirements to use that calc yourself. These calcs aren't universally accepted for all circumstances and contexts.

Given, I try writing out the requirements more explicitely if I add a feat to the page, but others sadly don't. So that work is on you users.

StrymULTRA said:
It takes as reference the Noah flooding, which is essentially done in the same way Kyogre does.
Click to expand...
Nah. Bad assumption that the vague resemblance means equal water level.

StrymULTRA said:
And Kyogre was treated as quite the immediate threat. They were quite in a hurry defeating it, and calc assumes that it uses a pretty huge rain across all Earth to do so, exactly like Kyogre does lol.
Click to expand...
If it took literally just a minute you would still need to divide the result. And the time for it to literally cover all the Earth under a 45m layer of water is probably in the hours or longer even if we believe it happens. Honestly, you're gonna need an accurate quantification of the time here, beyond it just being a threat.
 
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