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Probably yeah
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to be honest i wouldn't mind saying that all pokemon with some exceptions should have a minimum above average in combat. I mean even a machop trains in all martial arts and yet pokemon clash with him constantly. Pokemon are quite literally hard wired for combat, just saying "higher" is useless, i feel like saying higher after the base intelligence of below average is really an understatement
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Feels a little weird. I mean, Machop trains in all martial arts, & while it has a variety of moves, how do we know it employs them Intelligently in combat? Let alone that other Pokemon fight back with it intelligently? They might overcome it through strength, defense, speed, or even hax, as opposed to combat intelligence/skill.
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i mean they still consistently fight, sometimes even have to deal with higher stage pokemon. We see that often pokemon can trick each other and that they know how to implement status effect moves into their combat style, meaning that they shouldn't be just "average". If I put myself in a fight i ain't gonna figure out what type of strategy i need to use, i'm probably gonna use whatever's gonna deal damage or something more obvious, meanwhile pokemon often stay a lot more rational during combat than most.
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To be fair with the right abilities and maybe ranged attacks you can definitely take on a martial artist without really being comparable to them in technical fields. But I would say that a Pokèmon's combat intuition is definitely superior to untrained humans, considering they can learn tens of moves just by brawling with other Pokèmon even without any actual formal training
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- Thread starter
- #91
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i believe the basic statistics have been implemetned into the standards via Finepoint's revision, making all pokemon below average with above average combat skills and their fully evolved forms being gifted at bare minimum
Now we need to go over specific cases i guess
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I still disagree with scaling all of the normal pokemon (as in, non-legendaries, obviously) to the Machop stuff because of Imagi's and Chomp's reasons. But I'm fine with fighting-type pokemon and pokemon that are comparable to machop that also fight mostly in close-quarters scaling to it.
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above average mostly comes from the fact that an average guy would have way less survival and combat skills than a pokemon. I mean have you seen those things move?
- 16,084
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i mean here's an untrained scorbunny fighting Ash's pikachu who's e-net is strong enough to one-shot him later on.
Pretty damn agile if you ask me
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Oh they are agile I'm just memeing
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That video is hilarious.
But yeah, even if we discount the machop stuff, Pokémon should be far better fighters than the average person.
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While I feel inclined to agree, I feel like I'm unsure on what the justifications are.
Sure, the average person, especially IRL, is not going to be very experienced, skilled, nor wisened in combat, because they probably haven't had many fights, nor trained or studying for fights much.
But the same could be argued for many Pokemon; Many Pokemon don't train or study, & while they do fight, the skills they do demonstrate can be questionable.
So I suppose they're "above average" by being more experienced than a regular person.
But I'd presume it's easy to look at the anime or such, & find a Wild Pokemon, & find an Anti-Feat demonstrating that that Pokemon is not much more skillful than an average person.
If we are to argue they are more skilled than an Average Person, especially without the Machop stuff -Since, applying that to all species is a little shakey for multiple reasons, I'd assume- then what is our answer to such Anti-Feats, especially if they exist in great quantities?
I'd like to believe the conclusion that Pokemon are Above Average in combat-related intelligence/skill/experience, but what evidence do we bring up to support this in general?
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I mean, even wild Pokèmon can learn a variety of techniques just by fighting in the wild or under mediocre trainers, even something lame like a Rattata can learn relatively impressive moves like Quick Attack, Sucker Punch or Laser Focus, and I think that's better than what a guy would pick up by street fighting a bunch
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Eh, skill only gets you so far in battle, obviously a martial artist is going to demolish any random dude but martial arts become a lot less effective on something that doesn't work by human standards, you can't really karate a chimpanzee or a large dog too effectively.
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Fair. So maybe part of the justification might be that "Pokemon can, after sufficient amounts of experience in battle, naturally learn not only new techniques but how to use those new techniques reasonably well shortly after learning them?".
Although, part of me worries about using Level-Up moves as a justification, especially if other media may differ on the portrayal of such.
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Well, our intention is not to imply that every single Pokémon is Above Average, just most of them.
I don't doubt either that you can find a lot of stupid Pokémon, but just as Alakazam doesn't upgrade all Pokémon to genius, a Metapod doesn't downgrade every Pokémon to below average either.
If a Pokémon is exceptionally stupid, feel free to list them as exceptionally stupid.
The general evidence is the fact that they all learn a lot of moves and are able to utilize them in combat effectively, and typically can fight pretty competently even after they're just born. It's not rare for wild Pokémon to dodge either. That said, most Pokémon don't fully scale to Machop/Machamp either, they only scale to the fact that Machamp/Machop aren't skill gods who lord over their habitats unopposed, and so most Pokémon are able to at least put up a fight.
Plus it's not like Above Average in combat is a hard bar to pass... you just have to be better than a typical person, who is pretty bad at fighting.
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Oh okay.
So basically, just, for any species, get their Intelligence feats/statements, gather them here, & prepare to revise the individual species according to the relevant Intelligence Feats?
If so, I think I can readily help with fetching some feats/statements.
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Yes.
The "Below Average normally, Above Average in combat for 1st/2nd, Gifted in combat for 3rd" is just for Pokémon who have no significant feats or information relating to their intelligence. It's a baseline we can work with, so that we don't have profiles which just say "Above Average" with no explanation because nobody could think of anything.
Ideally, if a Pokémon has plenty of information about them they should have their own reasonings.
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What does Gifted for the 3rd stage come from?
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Downscaling from Machamp + All the experience needed to evolve to 3rd stage/Upscaling from 1st&2nd Stage
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Eh, nah. Downscaling from literally one of the most skilled members of the Type that is literally about skill makes no sense in my opinion, and fighting experience doesn't really make you gifted in itself, especially if you main method of combat is like, shooting fire or something like that.
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That's what we agreed to in the standards thread.
You know... the one that all the staff suddenly ignored after page 1...
It's not closed yet, you should leave a comment if you really disagree with it.
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Which standards thread?
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This one, I think: https://vsbattles.com/posts/4484736/
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Nope, not really, skill isn't hax that makes you stomp anyone that doesn't have it, it's like saying I'd need to be Gifted to beat Mike Tyson if I was holding a handgun.
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But I don't think it's that extreme.
They upscale twice from 1st stage Pokémon, and Machamp is Genius so they downscale pretty hard.
Plus it's a lot of experience to get to third stage, just looking at the episodes/gametime it takes to do that.
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Starting with a quick search of the word "Intelligent" in Pokedex entries.
Since we might be assuming higher intelligence for higher stages, I'll begin with the relevant entries for lower stage Pokemon that I found, be they good or bad.
Bounsweet is explicitly not intelligent enough to care about bird Pokemon being allured by its sweet aroma. When under attack, it produces a sweet, delicious scent that calls more enemies to it, & to resist being swallowed, it... "fruitlessly" spins the sepals on its head.
Bounsweet seems... laughably unintelligent, lol.
Lillipup uses its face's fur as a radar to check "subtle changes in its surroundings"< & apparently is also used for probing the condition of its battle opponents.
It's also noted as deciding to flee if it decides it can't win or is at a disadvantage, being "intelligent", obedient to its Trainer's commands, & easy to raise.
It's also described as cautious, & "far brighter than the average child", as well as not forgetting both love it receives or abuse it suffers.
Notably, the rest of Lillipup's line has similar entries.
Herdier is described as loyal, & faithful, & distinguishes who it listens to based on if it respects them or not. Believed to have been living with people for a long time, perhaps even the first to partner with people.
Described as "a very smart and friendly Pokémon".
Described as "extremely wise" & excelling at "rescuing people stranded at sea or in the mountains.", & described with "Intelligent, good-natured, and valiant, it’s a trustworthy partner on rescue teams.", & there being no concern it'd attack people, & some trusting it to babysit.
Wild Stoutland take about 3 days to warm up to people.
Apparently very proud of its moustache, & moustache length being what determines social standing among its species.
Then again, some would argue this Pokemon/line is the "literally my mom's dog" 1, so maybe take it with a grain of salt?
Magneton has an... interesting entry about its intelligence:
Described as impulsive, selfish, fickle, prideful, crafty, being picky about food, & highly intelligent/keenly smart.
On one hand, if its pride is wounded or the gold coin on its head is dirtied, it flies into "a hysterical rage".
But on the other hand, its said it "moves with cunning during battle and relentlessly attacks enemies' weak points.".
I guess at least it has described feats to go with the statements.
Should we consider Intelligence Statements/Feats as applicable to other regional variants? Ex: The original Meowth's when considering Alolan or Galarian Meowth, for example?
Original Meowth has a lot of stuff that might be relevant.
Snivy has a little about it:
There's probably a bunch of other stuff I haven't gone over for Pokemon that aren't fully evolved, but part of me says I should wait for people's opinions & answers regarding the contents of this post of mine.
Since we might be assuming higher intelligence for higher stages, I'll begin with the relevant entries for lower stage Pokemon that I found, be they good or bad.
| Ultra Sun | Because of its sweet, delicious aroma, bird Pokémon are always after it, but it’s not intelligent enough to care. |
|---|---|
| Ultra Moon | It tries to resist being swallowed by a bird Pokémon by spinning the sepals on its head. It’s usually a fruitless attempt. |
| Shield | When under attack, it secretes a sweet and delicious sweat. The scent only calls more enemies to it. |
|---|
Bounsweet is explicitly not intelligent enough to care about bird Pokemon being allured by its sweet aroma. When under attack, it produces a sweet, delicious scent that calls more enemies to it, & to resist being swallowed, it... "fruitlessly" spins the sepals on its head.
Bounsweet seems... laughably unintelligent, lol.
| Black | It faces strong opponents with great courage. But, when at a disadvantage in a fight, this intelligent Pokémon flees. |
|---|---|
| White | The long hair around its face provides an amazing radar that lets it sense subtle changes in its surroundings. |
| Black 2 White 2 | Though it is a very brave Pokémon, it’s also smart enough to check its foe’s strength and avoid battle. |
| Moon | The long fur surrounding its face functions as radar, enabling it to probe the condition of its battle opponents. |
|---|---|
| Ultra Sun | This Pokémon has excellent judgment. If it decides it can’t defeat an opponent, it immediately turns tail and vamooses. |
| Ultra Moon | This Pokémon is popular with beginners because it’s intelligent, obedient to its Trainer’s commands, and easy to raise. |
|---|---|
| Sword | This Pokémon is courageous but also cautious. It uses the soft fur covering its face to collect information about its surroundings. |
| Shield | This Pokémon is far brighter than the average child, and Lillipup won’t forget the love it receives or any abuse it suffers. |
Lillipup uses its face's fur as a radar to check "subtle changes in its surroundings"< & apparently is also used for probing the condition of its battle opponents.
It's also noted as deciding to flee if it decides it can't win or is at a disadvantage, being "intelligent", obedient to its Trainer's commands, & easy to raise.
It's also described as cautious, & "far brighter than the average child", as well as not forgetting both love it receives or abuse it suffers.
Notably, the rest of Lillipup's line has similar entries.
| White | It loyally follows its Trainer’s orders. For ages, they have helped Trainers raise Pokémon. |
|---|
| Moon | This Pokémon obeys its master’s orders faithfully. However, it refuses to listen to anything said by a person it doesn’t respect. |
|---|
| Ultra Moon | It has been living with people for so long that portrayals of it can be found on the walls of caves from long, long ago. |
|---|---|
| Sword | Herdier is a very smart and friendly Pokémon. So much so that there’s a theory that Herdier was the first Pokémon to partner with people. |
Herdier is described as loyal, & faithful, & distinguishes who it listens to based on if it respects them or not. Believed to have been living with people for a long time, perhaps even the first to partner with people.
Described as "a very smart and friendly Pokémon".
| White | This extremely wise Pokémon excels at rescuing people stranded at sea or in the mountains. |
|---|
| Sun | Intelligent, good-natured, and valiant, it’s a trustworthy partner on rescue teams. |
|---|---|
| Moon | With this wise Pokémon, there could be no concern that it would ever attack people. Some parents even trust it to babysit. |
| Sword | These Pokémon seem to enjoy living with humans. Even a Stoutland caught in the wild will warm up to people in about three days. |
|---|---|
| Shield | Stoutland is immensely proud of its impressive moustache. It’s said that moustache length is what determines social standing among this species. |
Described as "extremely wise" & excelling at "rescuing people stranded at sea or in the mountains.", & described with "Intelligent, good-natured, and valiant, it’s a trustworthy partner on rescue teams.", & there being no concern it'd attack people, & some trusting it to babysit.
Wild Stoutland take about 3 days to warm up to people.
Apparently very proud of its moustache, & moustache length being what determines social standing among its species.
Then again, some would argue this Pokemon/line is the "literally my mom's dog" 1, so maybe take it with a grain of salt?
Magneton has an... interesting entry about its intelligence:
Sun | When three Magnemite link together, their brains also become one. They do not become three times more intelligent. |
|---|
| Sun | This Pokémon was not originally found in Alola. Human actions caused a surge in their numbers, and they went feral. They’re prideful and crafty. |
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| Moon | When its delicate pride is wounded, or when the gold coin on its forehead is dirtied, it flies into a hysterical rage. |
| Ultra Sun | It’s impulsive, selfish, and fickle. It’s very popular with some Trainers who like giving it the attention it needs. |
| Let's Go Pikachu Let's Go Eevee | Highly intelligent and prideful, it’s famously difficult to handle—but that’s also a reason for its popularity. |
|---|---|
| Sword | It’s accustomed to luxury because it used to live with Alolan royalty. As a result, it’s very picky about food. |
| Shield | Deeply proud and keenly smart, this Pokémon moves with cunning during battle and relentlessly attacks enemies’ weak points. |
Described as impulsive, selfish, fickle, prideful, crafty, being picky about food, & highly intelligent/keenly smart.
On one hand, if its pride is wounded or the gold coin on its head is dirtied, it flies into "a hysterical rage".
But on the other hand, its said it "moves with cunning during battle and relentlessly attacks enemies' weak points.".
I guess at least it has described feats to go with the statements.
Should we consider Intelligence Statements/Feats as applicable to other regional variants? Ex: The original Meowth's when considering Alolan or Galarian Meowth, for example?
Original Meowth has a lot of stuff that might be relevant.
Snivy has a little about it:
| Black | It is very intelligent and calm. Being exposed to lots of sunlight makes its movements swifter. |
|---|
| Black 2 White 2 | Being exposed to sunlight makes its movements swifter. It uses vines more adeptly than its hands. |
|---|
There's probably a bunch of other stuff I haven't gone over for Pokemon that aren't fully evolved, but part of me says I should wait for people's opinions & answers regarding the contents of this post of mine.
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Sorry, I think we should just go through the Pokèmon profiles in order instead of randomly picking them or organizing this is going to be an nightmare
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You mean me?
Do you mean that you would prefer I try to go in National Dex order or such?
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Yeah, NatDex, just the profiles we have, since we're going to need to work on their ratings specifically. Or alphabetically if preferred.
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Oh okay. (Also, Bounsweet line lacks a profile, lol.)
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