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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
It's hilarious tbh, Rose was like: "Eternatus is the ultimate pokémon" yet it's current feats are less impressive than the gen 1 Kanto legendary birds let alone the regis but considering the manga gave two solid tier 4 feats (that backed up the multiple tier 4 lore/statements from other sources) to the Aloha legendaries, I won't count out gen 8 (in terms of AP) just yet (but I won't be holding my breath either).
Click to expand...
Difference is that even in the games, gen 7 god tiers had 4-B statements.

Gen 8 Games doesn’t have any impressive feats with these legendaries, and the most impressive statement is the ocean splitting one.

eternatus infinite energy statement is also not new. Victini was the first Pokémon to provide that statement and he only scales to the gen 5 dragons.
 
Ovrhide said:
Pretty sure that statement literally implies it can’t use that power.
Click to expand...
Yes, I’m aware, I explicitly mentioned that it’s bound. But why are Zekrom and Reshiram considered to be superior to base Kyurem.
 
LordTracer said:
Yes, I’m aware, I explicitly mentioned that it’s bound. But why are Zekrom and Reshiram considered to be superior to base Kyurem.
Click to expand...
the statement would be redundant otherwise. “Dwelling within it is a power even greater than that of Reshiram or Zekrom, but the extreme cold keeps that power bound... but he is still stronger without it”
 
I’m not saying he’s stronger regardless, I simply want to know where Zekrom and Reshiram being superior comes from.
 
I mean, Kyurem base has less base points than Zekrom or Reshiram and the lore of Kyurem is that he is the living remains of the original dragon as opposed to Reshiram/Zekrom, which are basically the two halves of the original dragon.
 
Howdy, just a thought, aren't there plenty of trainer feats above 9-C?

Hilbert is slammed into a wall after being shot a long distance from a cannon in Skyla's Gym.

Nate is struck with violent winds, smashing large barrels as he is whisked away, also in Skyla's Gym.

Brendan is shot from boiling geysers in Flannery's Gym.

Lucas smashes large, packed snowballs by slamming into them in Candice's Gym.
 
Yeah, a lot of trainers have stuff way above normal human tiers. Matter of fact, wasn’t there talk before the forum move about upgrading some trainers to scale to Pokemon?
 
I plan on eventually fixing Team Rockets profile. They should scale to Pikachu’s constant blasting, Meowth once took on every Protagonists Pokémon at once and won, James is consistently shown affection by his Pokémon in very violent manners, and Jessie has even tamed Pokémon after beating them up by hand. A lot of their inventions are designed to catch Pikachu, especially early-on, and are consistently portrayed as even making Fully Evolved Pokémon struggle to escape. Yet they’re rated 9-C, with Small Building Dura iirc.
 
Daddybrawl said:
I plan on eventually fixing Team Rockets profile. They should scale to Pikachu’s constant blasting, Meowth once took on every Protagonists Pokémon at once and won, James is consistently shown affection by his Pokémon in very violent manners, and Jessie has even tamed Pokémon after beating them up by hand. A lot of their inventions are designed to catch Pikachu, especially early-on, and are consistently portrayed as even making Fully Evolved Pokémon struggle to escape. Yet they’re rated 9-C, with Small Building Dura iirc.
Click to expand...
one of their mechs literally countered a triple z move two of which came from pikachu and another fully evolved pokemon
 
Also, small nitpick, but the protagonists of Sun and Moon are named Elio and Selene in the game's continuity, yet are referred to as Sun and Moon on their profile.
 
I wonder why they have profiles but the rest (besides Red) don't. Is there any reason other than they just haven't been made yet?

I may try and make the Gen 2 protags at some point.
 
Sun and Moon are just kind of impressive. Gen 7 gave themselves a pretty wide power boost, with Necrozma being able to light up the entirety of Ultra Space and Ultra Beasts being considered so dangerous Zygarde had to come out and give them the 1-2.
 
I just had a thought. In Agate Village, there's an old man who says his Wingull brings him berries from somewhere far away every day.
Presuming the distance from Orre to Hoenn (The only region known at the time to have such berries, unless FR/LG Kanto counts.) is like that of their real world basises, Phoenix, Arizona & Kyushu, Japan....

Looking it up, the distance is around 10,252.49 km
www.distance.to

Distance Kagoshima > Phoenix, AZ, USA - Air line, driving route, midpoint

Shows the distance in kilometres between Kagoshima and Phoenix, AZ, USA and displays the route on an interactive map. Worldwide distance calculator with air line, route planner, travel duration and flight distances.
www.distance.to www.distance.to
Although as the crow flies (a straight line.) says 8,849.980 km. https://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm
Maybe the exact distance can be more finely worked out, if it's worthwhile. I'm a little curious myself. ANYWAY....

He says Wingull does so every day. Being an old man, I doubt he'd be standing outdoors into the evening, & also given he uses the word "day", he must receive the berries between dawn & dusk. Not to mention, we never see Agate during nighttime anyway. Game mechanics, but kinda supports it given the other evidence.
Also presuming his partner Pokemon, Wingull, gets up around the same time as he does, we can thus assume it's probably getting up in a similar time range.

So let's say Wingull leaves Agate Village after 6 AM at the earliest & returns before 6 PM at the latest. That leaves 6 hours one way & 6 hours back at the slowest.
10,252,490 meters in 21,600 seconds = 474.652315 meters per second.
8,849,980 meters in 21,600 seconds = 409.721296 meters per second.

Both results are Supersonic.
If we assume 1 hour both ways?
8,849,980 m / 3600 s = 2,458.32778 m/s (Hypersonic)
10,252,490 m / 3600 s = 2,847.91389 m/s (Also Hypersonic)
Since Hypersonic+ starts at 3,430 m/s, being 71.67% to 83.02% of the way there already seems kind of impressive.

If we ever stop scaling from electric attacks, this might be a good backup feat, I guess.

Albeit, this also may be for an experienced Pokemon; Agate village is described as full of Veteran trainers, so an old man there probably has quite a respectably capable partner Pokemon.

(Which reminds me that supposed legend Eagun, with his high level Pikachu, loses in a scripted fight, & the 'cause of his loss is apparently that Shadow Pokemon are (or that specific Hitmontop.) are just that powerful.) Although, his Pikachu also takes out half of Hitmontop's HP, so Eagun's probably not a slouch either. Might be interesting for tiering.
 
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Say, know what’s funny? Mustard in Sword and Shield refers to Exp when you try to battle him as a rematch. Avery from Pokemon Shield commonly refers to Pokemon Moves and Natures as a quirk when he speaks. In the Pokemon Anime, Pokemon are able to level up an learn moves mid-battle, such as a Hoppip leveling up and using Solar Beam mid-match in the OG Anime or Pikachu learning Electroweb in Sun and Moon.
Exp and Levels canonically exist in the Pokemon Universe
 
Exp stands for experience.

And of course they get stronger when they battle, and are capable of learning moves as a result of leveling up.

how is that news?
 
It’s that Exp is typically Game Mechanics. They aren’t usually things that exist in-verse. However, there is now more than one instance of people on Pokèmon referring to ‘Game Mechanics‘ (minus Stats of course) as actual things, meaning Exp is canonically a thing apparently.
 
Tbh I feel like pokémon as a species should get Accelerated Development, there've been too many instances of mons growing stronger in the middle of battle, learning new moves/techniques and even adapting to the strategies of the opponent (Ash's gym leader rematches are proof enough).

I'm currently compiling some evidence (it's slow going tho) and IF exp is indeed canon then this just adds to the argument.

Just one question tho, would this only apply to trained mons or all mons?
 
Iirc certain Wild Mons learn new moves mid-battle too. I can’t tell you which though, as I’m forgetting. Either way it doesn’t make sense for it to be restricted to Trained Pokemon though- If anything, it’s more applicable to Wilds, as we find Wild Pokemon evolved before they should be able to and even see Wild Pokemon using evolutions that shouldn’t be possible for a Wild Pokemon in the first place, such as Wild Scizor.
 
@Daddybrawl: I can imagine some people not liking Mystery Dungeon as evidence, but that also has wild Pokemon beng able to evolve (If they KO you or your partner or something?) so that might also count. Math & biology rambling & calcing below:
Arguable supporting evidence might be that they seem to reproduce fast. I'd bet it's a matter of days going by anime Egg hatching time, but I haven't checked yet.


& going by game mechanic Egg Times....
Well, every species has a number of Egg Cycles, so multiple Pokemon from the same line take just as long to hatch; Your Magikarp won't hatch any faster than mine EXCEPT if:
1. Magma Armor/Flame Body/O-Powers are speeding up one of our eggs but not the other.
2. We're in different generations (Except 2 & 7.), since most generations don't have matching step counts for how long an Egg Cycle is.
In any other circumstances, our Eggs for Pokemon from the same lines would take an equal amount of steps to hatch.

As for how long it can take?
Well, the shortest amount of Egg Cycles (5) belongs to Magikarp & Gyarados, so if you get an Egg with either of those Pokemon (Gyarados is possible via some glitches, IIRC. & obviously, hacking/cheating.), it will hatch in at the very most 1,536 steps.
In Generations 3 & 4, the game checks if the Egg Cycle count is at 0, if so, THEN hatches, but if not decrements the cycles remaining by 1; So if a Pokemon's Egg Cycles remaining goes from 1 to 0 in Gens 3 or 4, the Egg doesn't hatch, & if you have to walk another 256 or 255 steps! Thanks, programmers!

Anyway, this means Gen 3 with its 256 step cycles (Unlike Gen 4's 255 ones.), an Egg containing, say, a Deoxys, would take 120 (But actually 121.) Egg Cycles.

Supposedly, the average human walking speed is 1.4 meters per second (m/s).
....Well, that's a figure Wikipedia gives, but if you want other source's info, they claim 2.5 mph to 4 mph (1.1176 to 1.78816 m/s; Why so many of them use mph is bafflingly beyond me.)
Wikipedia also claims: "Although many people are capable of walking at speeds upwards of 2.5 m/s (9.0 km/h; 5.6 mph; 8.2 ft/s), especially for short distances, they typically choose not to.[4]"

ANYWAY....

"On average, adults have a step length of about 2.2 to 2.5 feet. In general, if you divide a person's step length by their height, the ratio value you get is about 0.4 (with a range from about 0.41 to 0.45)."

But if we're to use them as units of measurement, are "stride" & "step" interchangeable?

https://www.healthline.com/health/stride-length#stride-length says:

"What is stride length?

Stride length is the distance covered when you take two steps, one with each foot. Start with your two feet together and start walking. You can start with either foot, but let’s say you start with your left:

  1. Lift your left foot up and step forward.
  2. Now both feet are on the ground with the left foot ahead of the right one.
  3. Lift your right foot and swing it forward past your left foot, and place it on the ground.
  4. Now both feet are on the ground with the right foot ahead of the left one.
What is step length?

A step length is the distance covered when you take one step. Start with your two feet together and start walking. You can start with either foot, but let’s say you start with your left:

Lift your left foot up and step forward.
Now both feet are on the ground with your left foot ahead of your right one.
The distance your left foot traveled (from the toe of your right foot to the toe of your left foot, or from the heel of your right foot to the heel of your left foot) is your step length. There might be a difference between your left step length and your right step length."

So apparently "stride" and "step" are NOT identical, nor interchangeable, at least not for our purposes especialy!

But most of the Pokemon protagonists aren't adults, so we should probably get data that applies to humans their age. Perhaps unsurprisingly, data on how fast youths typically walk wasn't easy to find, but I have some:


It's a couple of studies actually, but it's the one from 2000 we're concerned with since it gets data for ages 3 to 18 while the 1988 one only gets data for ages 1 to 7 & I doubt even the Let's Go Protagonists are THAT young!
Said study was published in Rochester, Minnesota & the other in London, England, so I dunno why it seems to have been uploaded by Quebec's government. Also why is there a Rochester in New York AND Minnesota but only Minnesota also has a Manchester?!)
So....

Well, apparently, Google failed to recognize plain black text on plain white background as text in a PDF that can be copied, so I'll have to make do with a screenshot of the chart.
If you can't view that image, here a transcription of the relevant info:

(SD1 is standard deivation of the group as a whole, SD2 is mean standard deviation of individuals. Meaurements seem to be in cm/s.)


All fast: 171 cm/s (SD1 22, SD2 7) Step Length 63 cm (SD1 13, SD2 3) Cadence 169 Steps/minute, (SD1 29, SD2 6)
All Normal: 119 cm/s (SD1 19, SD2 7) Step Length 100 cm (SD1 11, SD2 3) Cadence 134 Steps/Minute (SD1 17, SD2 6)
All slow: 86 cm/s (SD1 19, SD2 6) Step Length 48 cm (SD1 11, SD2 3) Cadence 110 Steps/Minute (SD1 17, SD2 5)
7-11: Fast 179 cm/s (SD1 21, SD2 8.) Step Length 62 cm (SD1 5, SD2 3) Cadence 175 Steps/Minute (SD1 25, SD2 7)
12-18 Fast: 179 cm/s (SD1 18, SD2 5) Step Length 78 cm (SD1 7, SD2 2) Cadence 138 Steps/Minute (SD1 12, SD2 3)
7-11 Normal: 119 cm/s (SD1 18, SD2 5) Step Length 54 cm (SD1 6 SD2 2) Cadence 132 Steps/Minute (SD1 12, SD2 5)
12-18 Normal 129 cm/s (SD1 15, SD2 6) Step Length 67 cm (SD1 6, SD2 3) Cadence 116 Steps/Minute (SD1 11, SD2 4)
7-11 Slow: 83 cm/s (SD1 17, SD2 6) Step Length 48 cm (SD1 7, SD2 3) Cadence 105 Steps/Minute (SD1 16, SD2 5)
12-18 Slow: 99 cm/s (SD1 17, SD2 5), Step Length 60 cm (SD1 7, SD2 3) Cadence 99 Steps/Minute (SD1 12, SD3)


If we look at this data, we can see that a Normal 7-11 y/o walks 54 cm per step, & their velocity is 119 cm/s, which makes sense, since the step is not the full stride.
Thus, if it takes them 1 second to move 119 cm, but 1 step moves them only 54 cm, then presumably the single step takes as much time to do as 54 cm's size as a portion/percentage of 119 cm! So....

119 / 54 = 2.2037037. Thus, divide 1 second by 2.2037037 for how much time for the 54 cm 1 step! 0.453781513 seconds!

As an alternative, it was mentioned above most people (Adults especially) have step-length-to-height ratios of 0.40 to 0.45.
We can try applying this to youths.... (Link for average heights used.) For simplicity & brevity's sake, we'll use the lowest ratio.
11 yrs F: 144 cm * 0.40 = 57.6
12 yrs F: 149.8 * 0.40 = 59.92
11 yrs M: 143.5 * 0.40 = 57.4
12 yrs F: 149.1 * 0.40 = 59.64

More or less the same. The ratio is probably more applicable to adults, or maybe Standard Deviations has to do with it. Not entirely sure.

Anyway, we now have a sort of means of deriving timeframe per step, so....
The absolute most steps would be any Legendary in Gen 3 that isn't a bird, beast or golem, needing 30,976 steps!
So a Deoxys in Gen 3, at 30,976 steps, each step taking 0.453781513 seconds would take....30,976 * 0.453781513 =
14,056.3361 seconds.
Or about 3 hours, 56 minutes & 16 seconds.

The fastest hatching Pokemon are Magikarp & Gyarados, at 1,280 steps in Gens 2 & 7.
This comes out to 580.840337 seconds or 9 minutes & 40.84 seconds to hatch a Magikarp/Gyarados.

The very slowest age group (12-18 Slow) the study documents walks 99 cm/s & has a step length of 60 cm/s, so 1 second / 1.65 = 0.606060606 seconds.
30,976 / 0.606060606 = 18,773.3333 seconds or 5 hours, 12 minutes & 53.3 seconds.


So yeah. Based on how much time it takes real humans around Pokemon protagonist age to take steps & how fast they walk, & applying that to how many steps for Pokemon Eggs to hatch, Pokemon reproduce terrifyingly fast.
(At least, as far as egg hatching is concerned.)

For some comparisons,
ocean sunfish can produce 300 million eggs in however long a "spawning season" is. How long to hatch? How long to mature?
& the African driver ant can produce 3 to 4 million eggs every 25 days.... But they mostly just have 1 female, a queen, & their males' eggs take 8 weeks to hatch.

Regarding mammals:
"The stripe-faced dunnart, a tiny carnivorous marsupial found in Australia, has the shortest gestation period of any mammal of just 11 days."
Cabbage aphid females clone themselves at 5 to 10 per day in spring, until summer & in autumn, then make males. Dr Richard Harrington, head of the long-running Rothamsted Insect Survey estimates that "a single aphid could spawn enough descendants to cover the Earth in a layer of aphids 149km deep within a year.". But in reality, high mortality because lol predators.
www.discoverwildlife.com

Which mammal has the most babies in its lifetime?

The figures below represent the maximum number of babies that a wild female of each species could have in her lifetime. Factors such as food availability will have an impact on these numbers for any individual.
www.discoverwildlife.com www.discoverwildlife.com
Affrican Killifish can mature as fast as 2 weeks, but are notedly inconsistent.
Other interesting stuff: Antechinus males reproduce nonstop, consuming their own bodies, becoming diseased, furless & bleeding internally to do so.
Scientists do math about how maximum rate of evolution.

So yeah. If Pokemon reproduce at 1 offspring per 1 male & 1 female in a matter of hours, it's no wonder Pokemon are called monsters....
& could also possibly contribute to why real world species practically don't exist in the Pokemon world.

But game mechanics, lol.
I really ought to look into anime egg hatching timelimes next, sometime in the near future.

Sorry for all the words.
 
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Glad you appreciate it. Although, to keep the thread looking a little neater, I'm probably try putting a bunch of that in spoiler tags.

Also, I recently realized we can also sort of calculate how long it takes Pokemon to produce an egg (As opposed to how long to hatch an egg, as I calc'd above.), but it uses a similar kind of fallacious calc-ing.

Basically, how likely two Pokemon are to breed is a probability checked every Egg Cycle while they're in the Day Care, & the probability goes up for having Same Species &/or different Original Trainers, & down for Different Species &/or same Original Trainer.
0% is if no shared Egg Groups, same Gender, 1 or both are in the Undiscovered Egg Group, or both are Ditto.

Ignoring the Oval Charm (Canon as it arguably is.) & Gen 2's weird system, the non-0% probabilities are 20% (Different Species & Same OT.), 50% (Species & OT are both Same or both Different.), & 70% for Same Species, different OT.

The probability for the pair producing an Egg is rolled once, each time the player character takes 256 steps while the pair is there.

So using the above step time "calculations":
0.453781513 seconds per step (7-11 Normal):
20% chance, an average of 5 cycles, so 256 * 5 = 1280, which * 0.453781513 = 580.840337 seconds. (9 minutes, 40.84 seconds.)
40%, average of 2.5 cycles = 290.420168 seconds (4 minutes, 50.42 seconds.)
50%, average of 2 cycles = 232.336135 (3 minutes, 52.33 seconds.)
70%, average of 142.857143 visits = 165.954382 seconds (2 minutes, 45 seconds or so.)
0.606060606 seconds per step (12-18 Slow):
20% chance, an average of 5 visits, so 256 * 5 = 1280, which * 0.606060606 = 775.757576 seconds (12 minutes, 55.75 seconds.)
40%, so 387.878788 seconds (6 minutes, 27.87 seconds.)
50%, so 310.30303 (5 minutes, 10.30 seconds.)
70%, so 221.645022 (3 minutes, 41.64 seconds.)

Lol, game mechanics. The idea of a species that takes as little as 13 minutes to create offspring, at the most, & only 10 minutes to under 5 & a quarter hours for the offspring to arrive boasts terrifying potential for hyper-invasiveness.

So one hand, lol. By this logic, Pokemon would be the best/worst invasive species ever to unleash on an alien world. At least most of them are nice & not omnicidal, right? But on the other hand, game mechanics, & I can think of at least a couple reasons to disbelieve they're this capable of rapidly amassing numbers.
 
Technically, Pokemon Eggs aren’t even produced. As explained in Journeys, the ‘They just show up’ explanation is canonical. They’re not laying these eggs- something’s putting them there. Remember, Pokemon were once worshipped as Deities in the Manga for a reason...
 
Daddybrawl said:
Technically, Pokemon Eggs aren’t even produced. As explained in Journeys, the ‘They just show up’ explanation is canonical. They’re not laying these eggs- something’s putting them there. Remember, Pokemon were once worshipped as Deities in the Manga for a reason...
Click to expand...
Lol. All the more reason to call what my math is discussed Game Mechanics, then? Though, it still seems connected to two Pokemon being with each other.
 
Inter-species marriage
Seen enough anime to know where this is going
Machamp Cafes (which by itself isn't 18+, but considering it confirms that people are attracted to machamp, as well as them also being confirmed to be naked (those ain't pants), it's definitely 18+)
Detective Pikachu movie jokes about Pokemon Prostitution with the whole “I never do this. I’m not that kind of Pokemon” line

I know there's more, but can't recall at the moment

--edit: Found some more lol
Bet this is knot what you expected
Apparently there was a chapter somewhere in the manga where they met a guy who married a Gothitelle
 
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A quick little bump for interest so while we wait for the Gen 8 manga to give potential visual feats plus the possibility of pokémon physiology.

At the very least we should focus on things that can be done in the immediate future, such as adding Dynamax to the Crown tundra mons (I believe Arceus also gets it via virtue that his kids can Dynamax).

I'm currently searching for speed-feats for another verse (while dealing with the winter rush), so I'm kinda busy atm.
 
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Yeah, I noticed the profile too. Doesn’t quite have the best image, and the Techniques bit could use the proper Link, but both of those are an easy fix. Otherwise, I’m afraid I don’t see what’s wrong with the profile. Are the statistics wrong? Last I checked we still made Legendaries 6-B low though...
 
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