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????@LephyrTheRevanchist Mind elaborating why a statement such that has any value or meaning to qualitative superiority transcendence?
Why are you questioning me? I'm straight up saying it doesn't by default.
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????@LephyrTheRevanchist Mind elaborating why a statement such that has any value or meaning to qualitative superiority transcendence?
"Multiverse is a part of him"Tier 1 consists of characters that are, according to the Tiering System page, "usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence which trivialize everything below them into insignificance." Wouldn't a 4-D structure being trivialized to a mere aspect of Arceus' being fall under that?
There’s a huge flaw with this point here. This is Cognita saying the realm is outside space-time, compared to Arceus’s own interpretation of his realm where he says something very different.People bring up his dimension as being 5D, but the truth is that his realm is rather located outside the multiverse, and not in a qualitative superiority way
VIZ is infamous for screwing up translations. Someone should get the raw Japanese scans directly translated"Multiverse is a part of him"
This is the scan that is supposed to prove that the multiverse is part of him.
The official Viz scan didn't even say anything close to that.
Let me break it downI know I’ve said to some that I’m finished with Pokémon threads, but I was shown this from others, so I will make an exception this time to get some thoughts off my chest.
I disagree with this heavily, and mainly because the OP is being very “summed up” and detail-less with his argument as to why this isn’t Low 1-C.
To start with, all of us here already knows transcendence by itself…doesn’t give you entry to tier 1? We know by now that context is the deciding factor, we went through this the first time Arceus got Low 1-C as well. The context is here, but being glossed over. But before getting to that, I want to start addressing this.
There’s a huge flaw with this point here. This is Cognita saying the realm is outside space-time, compared to Arceus’s own interpretation of his realm where he says something very different.
Arceus himself, right at the literal beginning of the game, directly cites his dimension lies beyond that of time and space. This is something coming straight up from the horses mouth. Cognita is the one who’s saying something different (and not even differently either, “Far beyond space-time” in the Imgur album is what she says according to the translation, so she’s not even saying “outside”, but I’m doing this as a devils advocate).
Why would Cognitas interpretation of Arceus’s dimension have any sort of validity here in comparison to…the literal creator of the dimensions interpretation? Any implication of Cognitas word rivaling Arceus’s is pretty ridiculous, and for several obvious clear reasons. He’s the creator of said dimension and has a far far far superior understanding of space-time and it’s concepts than she would. Cognita in this particular case is simply wrong.
But even without addressing Cognitas part in all of this, transcendence in this case for Arceus and his dimension, as I mentioned, does have context. And it’s Arceus being superior to that of the Pokémon Cosmology.
The original thread that got Low 1-C accepted (my Low 1-C thread) for Arceus clarified more than once that being superior to that of 4-D space-time, as outlined in the notes section of our sites tiering system, is enough to be granted Low 1-C. Ultima himself agreed with this being a valid method of getting tier 1 as well (and my thread shows this too).
This is also precisely why other characters, such as Archie Sonic, were able to be given Low 1-C as well. Again, also mentioned many times in the original upgrade thread.
So for Arceus’s particular case, this is the same thing. The entire Pokémon cosmology is a mere aspect of Arceus’s true existence. It’s a facet of Arceus, which goes into the idea that the 4-D aspect of Pokemons cosmology is inferior to True Arceus. Coupled with the other supporting details like Giratinas DW lacking directions.
So when using the statement of Arceus transcending everything, it being an abstract god with the entire cosmology being such a small aspect of its true existence would mean True Arceus transcends the cosmology.
All in all? The context and reasons given the first time around are all sound and solid enough to be Low 1-C. The OP really gave next to no explanation as to why it isn’t, and the original upgrade already went over a lot of the details the first time before determining if it qualified or not, so I’m not seeing why this quick summary of just saying “it isn’t Low 1-C” would make anything different.
So yeah, I disagree with the downgrade.
So hast thou proven by thine actions.
Much as that ancient hero once did. He and the Pokémon that walked beside him.
To see such truths proven anew, beyond the bounds of time and space, bringeth joy to me.
That will be very difficult to find. But that doesn't even mean the entire multiverse is part of it thoVIZ is infamous for screwing up translations. Someone should get the raw Japanese scans directly translated
May I see evidence supporting this claim?Disagree to this CRT, this was in fact not the reason the upgrade came about.
To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.
Trivialized?Disagree to this CRT, this was in fact not the reason the upgrade came about.
To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety and within in which all of space and time (and stuff outside space and time) are one, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.
I've read it. Where is the low 1C proof?The basic summary is sufficiently given in the sections you quoted, but a more in-depth one would require the likes of Executor_N0's blogs as theirs a lot that goes into understanding the heart and it's relationship to the Pokéverse.
But, regardless this CRT falls apart at it's basic premise, as it's built on the logic that Ultima and other Staff agreed that it was Low 1-C because of a mere transcending statement, when their agreement was because of unrelated reasons.
Not really hard, the scans are already translated and they are on the Pokémon Called Gods blog. It's also not really exclusive to that manga, as that is just a line from the Plates and the Origin Story calling Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina as Arceus' bunshins (Avatar, split body). In regards to the multiverse, it's a part of Arceus being called an All-encompassing entity and the whole original heart story. The Creation Trio are also called the embodiment of their concepts such as Dialga being called the "Embodiment of Time" by Cyrus on Pokémon Diamond and also Giratina in Pokémon Platinum.That will be very difficult to find. But that doesn't even mean the entire multiverse is part of it tho
Even the fan translation mentioned it is Dialga and Palkia that are part of it, not the entire multiverse .
But you agree that there's not enough proof for Low 1C?Not really hard, the scans are already translated and they are on the Pokémon Called Gods blog. It's also not really exclusive to that manga, as that is just a line from the Plates and the Origin Story calling Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina as Arceus' bunshins (Avatar, split body). In regards to the multiverse, it's a part of Arceus being called an All-encompassing entity and the whole original heart story. The Creation Trio are also called the embodiment of their concepts such as Dialga being called the "Embodiment of Time" by Cyrus on Pokémon Diamond and also Giratina in Pokémon Platinum.
Just go read the upgrade thread where Low 1-C was accepted, it is still very much accessible and just wastes staff time repeatedly having to answer the same points over and over again because user's can't put the effort in to check why a upgrade went through in the upgrade thread itself.I've read it. Where is the low 1C proof?
Where is the "Trivialized" or anything similar to that?
You dropped a huge aah blog and where should I look for what you want me to see exactly? I don't think I missed anything when I read it
Whatever it is, the justification is definitely not on his profile
I read it for fun once in a while.Just go read the upgrade thread where Low 1-C was accepted, it is still very much accessible and just wastes staff time repeatedly having to answer the same points over and over again because user's can't put the effort in to check why a upgrade went through in the upgrade thread itself.
So you know that a bunch of staff, including Executor_N0 agreed to Low 1-C for reasons that weren't simply they transcended space and time.I read it for fun once in a while.
Ironically, the thread says we shouldn't bring the Avatar into the thread because it's about True Form Arceus, and the profile proceeds to use his Avatar as the justification for 95% of it
I know that as a Non Pokémon supporter these things will go over their heads. Not me though. My knowledge on Arceus is Top tier and there's nothing here that proves low 1C, which i proved to hasty and of course, he couldn't counter it for obvious reasonsSo you know that a bunch of staff, including Executor_N0 agreed to Low 1-C for reasons that weren't simply they transcended space and time.
You said "Trivialized". Prove it and Antvasima will close the thread immediately(Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the parallel dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves. Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being, as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time and Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power
Basically name fallacy. AlrightNot really hard, the scans are already translated and they are on the Pokémon Called Gods blog. It's also not really exclusive to that manga, as that is just a line from the Plates and the Origin Story calling Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina as Arceus' bunshins (Avatar, split body). In regards to the multiverse, it's a part of Arceus being called an All-encompassing entity and the whole original heart story. The Creation Trio are also called the embodiment of their concepts such as Dialga being called the "Embodiment of Time" by Cyrus on Pokémon Diamond and also Giratina in Pokémon Platinum.
Here, I go into detail on why none of the scans prove Low 1C.Lucky for you, my knowledge on Arceus is 10000%. Let's break it down shall we?
None of these is anything close to low 1C. Why is this even there?
We know that Arceus isn't a 5D being, so his transcendence over everything is more talking about his authority over all creation and not a qualitative difference. Everything being a part of him is true, and that scan is talking about the OS avatar. Realm beyond space time means his dimension is outside of it, and not a higher dimensional realm. The multiverse is literally an extension of the Pokémon Arceus, and he's definitely not 5D. Consciousness spreading across space and time is omnipresence, why is this even a justification?. Everything about Hoopa is nonsense because Hoopa didnt even attempt to access Arceus dimension, so why is this there?
An appeal to authority is it. That alone isn't going to overturn the opinion of a number of staff who agreed that the evidence they were presented was another to accept a proposal.I know that as a Non Pokémon supporter these things will go over their heads. Not me though. My knowledge on Arceus is Top tier and there's nothing here that proves low 1C, which i proved to hasty and of course, he couldn't counter it for obvious reasons
You said "Trivialized". Prove it and Antvasima will close the thread immediately
Dude. Where are the scans?An appeal to authority is it. That alone isn't going to overturn the opinion of a number of staff who agreed that the evidence they were presented was another to accept a proposal.
Talking about Argument fallacies, this one was an appeal to popularity.An appeal to authority is it. That alone isn't going to overturn the opinion of a number of staff who agreed that the evidence they were presented was another to accept a proposal.
It's implied through multiple avatars of 4-D stature, as lesser pieces of himself, that they are trivialized even to an avatar of The Heart. That's the main argument.I'll repeat, where is it implied trivialization?
However, the other translation thread (the one from reddit) seems to suggest another meaning as well, which is why I don't see that as particularly solid here.About translations and the general meaning
In regards to "transcend space-time" or "beyond space-time", as I explained before, the wording in Japanese is a lot of times just used to refer to "time travel" or "travel across different universes", it's "beyond" in the sense of going beyond the linear perspective of those dimensions and not being in the place it should be.
For example, in the Pokémon Mystery Files there are some lines about that in regards to Dialga and Celebi, for them, it makes perfect sense, even more, because it's talking about an action, that it means "time travel".
When Arceus talked about that at the end of the story, he talked about "beyond the bonds of time and space" in the sense of the character has traveled across time and space to reach Hissui of the past and show once again the values that Arceus wanted to see again. So if the general context is to talk about an action,I think that "travel/cross" is a more direct translation if you don't want to be a bit vague with the terms.
But when talking about Arceus' universe, Arceus is just talking about where the player is located and the nature of that universe, so I don't think that it's used in the sense of "crossing" as in "time travel" or "travel between universes" (Dialga's world already seems to be the time between split seconds and Palkia's world already is the space between parallel spaces, so it being really in the sense of crossing space and time would just make Arceus live where Dialga and Palkia already live, and we know that isn't the case). So in this context, I do think that "koeta" really is used to mean "transcend" because it lacks the same context as the ending where it's talking about an action (That is, the term in the ending is referring to the context of what was happening that was time travel, while the first is talking about the nature of a place, so it makes sense to be "transcendence).
Transcendence enough for low 1C?5DAbout translations and the general meaning
In regards to "transcend space-time" or "beyond space-time", as I explained before, the wording in Japanese is a lot of times just used to refer to "time travel" or "travel across different universes", it's "beyond" in the sense of going beyond the linear perspective of those dimensions and not being in the place it should be.
For example, in the Pokémon Mystery Files there are some lines about that in regards to Dialga and Celebi, for them, it makes perfect sense, even more, because it's talking about an action, that it means "time travel".
When Arceus talked about that at the end of the story, he talked about "beyond the bonds of time and space" in the sense of the character has traveled across time and space to reach Hissui of the past and show once again the values that Arceus wanted to see again. So if the general context is to talk about an action,I think that "travel/cross" is a more direct translation if you don't want to be a bit vague with the terms.
But when talking about Arceus' universe, Arceus is just talking about where the player is located and the nature of that universe, so I don't think that it's used in the sense of "crossing" as in "time travel" or "travel between universes" (Dialga's world already seems to be the time between split seconds and Palkia's world already is the space between parallel spaces, so it being really in the sense of crossing space and time would just make Arceus live where Dialga and Palkia already live, and we know that isn't the case). So in this context, I do think that "koeta" really is used to mean "transcend" because it lacks the same context as the ending where it's talking about an action (That is, the term in the ending is referring to the context of what was happening that was time travel, while the first is talking about the nature of a place, so it makes sense to be "transcendence).
I will note this on my cosmology page for the verse. However, I still failed to see a single statement talking about literal transcendence over the main universe means 5D. Not excluding the fact, that we no longer take name fallacy as a valid argument.About translations and the general meaning
In regards to "transcend space-time" or "beyond space-time", as I explained before, the wording in Japanese is a lot of times just used to refer to "time travel" or "travel across different universes", it's "beyond" in the sense of going beyond the linear perspective of those dimensions and not being in the place it should be.
For example, in the Pokémon Mystery Files there are some lines about that in regards to Dialga and Celebi, for them, it makes perfect sense, even more, because it's talking about an action, that it means "time travel".
When Arceus talked about that at the end of the story, he talked about "beyond the bonds of time and space" in the sense of the character has traveled across time and space to reach Hissui of the past and show once again the values that Arceus wanted to see again. So if the general context is to talk about an action,I think that "travel/cross" is a more direct translation if you don't want to be a bit vague with the terms.
But when talking about Arceus' universe, Arceus is just talking about where the player is located and the nature of that universe, so I don't think that it's used in the sense of "crossing" as in "time travel" or "travel between universes" (Dialga's world already seems to be the time between split seconds and Palkia's world already is the space between parallel spaces, so it being really in the sense of crossing space and time would just make Arceus live where Dialga and Palkia already live, and we know that isn't the case). So in this context, I do think that "koeta" really is used to mean "transcend" because it lacks the same context as the ending where it's talking about an action (That is, the term in the ending is referring to the context of what was happening that was time travel, while the first is talking about the nature of a place, so it makes sense to be "transcendence).
Palkia, Dialga and Giratina already are as big as the multiverse. They are nothing to Arceus, who can recreate them as it pleases and as many as he wants practically whenever he wants. The Heart trivializes that, as Arceus is but a mere aspect to it too.The Heart encompasses the multiverse yes? How does that make it low 1C? 5D?