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Alright, thanks. So basically, we can remove any arguments related to it or give any value to it.
Currently, we have no context, as to why it is low 1-C.
Currently, we have no context, as to why it is low 1-C.
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Tier 1 consists of characters that are, according to the Tiering System page, "usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence which trivialize everything below them into insignificance." Wouldn't a 4-D structure being trivialized to a mere aspect of Arceus' being fall under that?
Sniper670
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- #45
"Multiverse is a part of him"
This is the scan that is supposed to prove that the multiverse is part of him.
The official Viz scan didn't even say anything close to that.
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I know I’ve said to some that I’m finished with Pokémon threads, but I was shown this from others, so I will make an exception this time to get some thoughts off my chest.
I disagree with this heavily, and mainly because the OP is being very “summed up” and detail-less with his argument as to why this isn’t Low 1-C.
To start with, all of us here already knows transcendence by itself…doesn’t give you entry to tier 1? We know by now that context is the deciding factor, we went through this the first time Arceus got Low 1-C as well. The context is here, but being glossed over. But before getting to that, I want to start addressing this.
Arceus himself, right at the literal beginning of the game, directly cites his dimension lies beyond that of time and space. This is something coming straight up from the horses mouth. Cognita is the one who’s saying something different (and not even differently either, “Far beyond space-time” in the Imgur album is what she says according to the translation, so she’s not even saying “outside”, but I’m doing this as a devils advocate).
Why would Cognitas interpretation of Arceus’s dimension have any sort of validity here in comparison to…the literal creator of the dimensions interpretation? Any implication of Cognitas word rivaling Arceus’s is pretty ridiculous, and for several obvious clear reasons. He’s the creator of said dimension and has a far far far superior understanding of space-time and it’s concepts than she would. Cognita in this particular case is simply wrong.
But even without addressing Cognitas part in all of this, transcendence in this case for Arceus and his dimension, as I mentioned, does have context. And it’s Arceus being superior to that of the Pokémon Cosmology.
The original thread that got Low 1-C accepted (my Low 1-C thread) for Arceus clarified more than once that being superior to that of 4-D space-time, as outlined in the notes section of our sites tiering system, is enough to be granted Low 1-C. Ultima himself agreed with this being a valid method of getting tier 1 as well (and my thread shows this too).
This is also precisely why other characters, such as Archie Sonic, were able to be given Low 1-C as well. Again, also mentioned many times in the original upgrade thread.
So for Arceus’s particular case, this is the same thing. The entire Pokémon cosmology is a mere aspect of Arceus’s true existence. It’s a facet of Arceus, which goes into the idea that the 4-D aspect of Pokemons cosmology is inferior to True Arceus. Coupled with the other supporting details like Giratinas DW lacking directions.
So when using the statement of Arceus transcending everything, it being an abstract god with the entire cosmology being such a small aspect of its true existence would mean True Arceus transcends the cosmology.
All in all? The context and reasons given the first time around are all sound and solid enough to be Low 1-C. The OP really gave next to no explanation as to why it isn’t, and the original upgrade already went over a lot of the details the first time before determining if it qualified or not, so I’m not seeing why this quick summary of just saying “it isn’t Low 1-C” would make anything different.
So yeah, I disagree with the downgrade.
I disagree with this heavily, and mainly because the OP is being very “summed up” and detail-less with his argument as to why this isn’t Low 1-C.
To start with, all of us here already knows transcendence by itself…doesn’t give you entry to tier 1? We know by now that context is the deciding factor, we went through this the first time Arceus got Low 1-C as well. The context is here, but being glossed over. But before getting to that, I want to start addressing this.
There’s a huge flaw with this point here. This is Cognita saying the realm is outside space-time, compared to Arceus’s own interpretation of his realm where he says something very different.
Arceus himself, right at the literal beginning of the game, directly cites his dimension lies beyond that of time and space. This is something coming straight up from the horses mouth. Cognita is the one who’s saying something different (and not even differently either, “Far beyond space-time” in the Imgur album is what she says according to the translation, so she’s not even saying “outside”, but I’m doing this as a devils advocate).
Why would Cognitas interpretation of Arceus’s dimension have any sort of validity here in comparison to…the literal creator of the dimensions interpretation? Any implication of Cognitas word rivaling Arceus’s is pretty ridiculous, and for several obvious clear reasons. He’s the creator of said dimension and has a far far far superior understanding of space-time and it’s concepts than she would. Cognita in this particular case is simply wrong.
But even without addressing Cognitas part in all of this, transcendence in this case for Arceus and his dimension, as I mentioned, does have context. And it’s Arceus being superior to that of the Pokémon Cosmology.
The original thread that got Low 1-C accepted (my Low 1-C thread) for Arceus clarified more than once that being superior to that of 4-D space-time, as outlined in the notes section of our sites tiering system, is enough to be granted Low 1-C. Ultima himself agreed with this being a valid method of getting tier 1 as well (and my thread shows this too).
This is also precisely why other characters, such as Archie Sonic, were able to be given Low 1-C as well. Again, also mentioned many times in the original upgrade thread.
So for Arceus’s particular case, this is the same thing. The entire Pokémon cosmology is a mere aspect of Arceus’s true existence. It’s a facet of Arceus, which goes into the idea that the 4-D aspect of Pokemons cosmology is inferior to True Arceus. Coupled with the other supporting details like Giratinas DW lacking directions.
So when using the statement of Arceus transcending everything, it being an abstract god with the entire cosmology being such a small aspect of its true existence would mean True Arceus transcends the cosmology.
All in all? The context and reasons given the first time around are all sound and solid enough to be Low 1-C. The OP really gave next to no explanation as to why it isn’t, and the original upgrade already went over a lot of the details the first time before determining if it qualified or not, so I’m not seeing why this quick summary of just saying “it isn’t Low 1-C” would make anything different.
So yeah, I disagree with the downgrade.
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VIZ is infamous for screwing up translations. Someone should get the raw Japanese scans directly translated
Sniper670
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Let me break it down
1. First of all "Transcendence" doesn't mean much here without further context. In this case, Arceus mentioned his realm is located beyond both space and time, with Cogita mentioning its located outside of it, with Arceus himself confirming its outside the boundary of space and time clearly indicates no qualitative superior but rather range, being outside the multiverse
2. You bring Ultima but what Ultima said is that you can't be 4D and be larger than it. In this case, there's nothing hinting at anything of that sort to begin with. You're free to show me. Which is very evident in the fact that it doesn't even exist in the low 1C justification for Arceus to begin with. You said the multiverse is "but a mere aspect of Arceus True self".... And you proceed to use Omnipresence as proof on his profiles.
3. Sonic? I quite remember Sonic had a statement of a "Higher Plane of Reality". Which Arceus lacks entirely as it's disproven by Arceus himself saying its beyond the boundaries/outside time and space.
To sum up. There's nothing hinting at qualitative superiority here. And anything related to the Avatar is meaningless as there's nothing of it that is qualitatively superior. The only thing that remotely qualifes for that is the Original Spirit, and we know barely anything about it. Might as well be unknown, but at the very least it should be equal it's avatar
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Disagree to this CRT, this was in fact not the reason the upgrade came about.
To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety and within in which all of space and time (and stuff outside space and time) are one, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.
To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety and within in which all of space and time (and stuff outside space and time) are one, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.
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May I see evidence supporting this claim?
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I want to see the evidence too
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The basic summary is sufficiently given in the sections you quoted, but a more in-depth one would require the likes of Executor_N0's blogs as theirs a lot that goes into understanding the heart and it's relationship to the Pokéverse.
But, regardless this CRT falls apart at it's basic premise, as it's built on the logic that Ultima and other Staff agreed that it was Low 1-C because of a mere transcending statement, when their agreement was because of unrelated reasons.
TLDR: Just go search up Ultima's post in the Arceus upgrade thread, it shouldn't take that much effort to find.
But, regardless this CRT falls apart at it's basic premise, as it's built on the logic that Ultima and other Staff agreed that it was Low 1-C because of a mere transcending statement, when their agreement was because of unrelated reasons.
TLDR: Just go search up Ultima's post in the Arceus upgrade thread, it shouldn't take that much effort to find.
Sniper670
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I've read it. Where is the low 1C proof?
Where is the "Trivialized" or anything similar to that?
You dropped a huge aah blog and where should I look for what you want me to see exactly? I don't think I missed anything when I read it
Whatever it is, the justification is definitely not on his profile
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Not really hard, the scans are already translated and they are on the Pokémon Called Gods blog. It's also not really exclusive to that manga, as that is just a line from the Plates and the Origin Story calling Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina as Arceus' bunshins (Avatar, split body). In regards to the multiverse, it's a part of Arceus being called an All-encompassing entity and the whole original heart story. The Creation Trio are also called the embodiment of their concepts such as Dialga being called the "Embodiment of Time" by Cyrus on Pokémon Diamond and also Giratina in Pokémon Platinum.
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I’m still not seeing what’s “vague” about the context.
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Just go read the upgrade thread where Low 1-C was accepted, it is still very much accessible and just wastes staff time repeatedly having to answer the same points over and over again because user's can't put the effort in to check why a upgrade went through in the upgrade thread itself.
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So you know that a bunch of staff, including Executor_N0 agreed to Low 1-C for reasons that weren't simply they transcended space and time.
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Sniper670
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I know that as a Non Pokémon supporter these things will go over their heads. Not me though. My knowledge on Arceus is Top tier and there's nothing here that proves low 1C, which i proved to hasty and of course, he couldn't counter it for obvious reasons
You said "Trivialized". Prove it and Antvasima will close the thread immediately
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Basically name fallacy. Alright
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An appeal to authority is it. That alone isn't going to overturn the opinion of a number of staff who agreed that the evidence they were presented was another to accept a proposal.
Sniper670
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Dude. Where are the scans?
And there was a huge flaw I pointed out. You say it's True Form Arceus and proceed to use Avatar Arceus and for obvious reasons as nothing proves 5D 95% of the justification is using the Avatar, who isn't even 5D.
I'll repeat, where is it implied trivialization?
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Talking about Argument fallacies, this one was an appeal to popularity.
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About translations and the general meaning
In regards to "transcend space-time" or "beyond space-time", as I explained before, the wording in Japanese is a lot of times just used to refer to "time travel" or "travel across different universes", it's "beyond" in the sense of going beyond the linear perspective of those dimensions and not being in the place it should be.
For example, in the Pokémon Mystery Files there are some lines about that in regards to Dialga and Celebi, for them, it makes perfect sense, even more, because it's talking about an action, that it means "time travel".
When Arceus talked about that at the end of the story, he talked about "beyond the bonds of time and space" in the sense of the character has traveled across time and space to reach Hissui of the past and show once again the values that Arceus wanted to see again. So if the general context is to talk about an action,I think that "travel/cross" is a more direct translation if you don't want to be a bit vague with the terms.
But when talking about Arceus' universe, Arceus is just talking about where the player is located and the nature of that universe, so I don't think that it's used in the sense of "crossing" as in "time travel" or "travel between universes" (Dialga's world already seems to be the time between split seconds and Palkia's world already is the space between parallel spaces, so it being really in the sense of crossing space and time would just make Arceus live where Dialga and Palkia already live, and we know that isn't the case). So in this context, I do think that "koeta" really is used to mean "transcend" because it lacks the same context as the ending where it's talking about an action (That is, the term in the ending is referring to the context of what was happening that was time travel, while the first is talking about the nature of a place, so it makes sense to be "transcendence).
In regards to "transcend space-time" or "beyond space-time", as I explained before, the wording in Japanese is a lot of times just used to refer to "time travel" or "travel across different universes", it's "beyond" in the sense of going beyond the linear perspective of those dimensions and not being in the place it should be.
For example, in the Pokémon Mystery Files there are some lines about that in regards to Dialga and Celebi, for them, it makes perfect sense, even more, because it's talking about an action, that it means "time travel".
When Arceus talked about that at the end of the story, he talked about "beyond the bonds of time and space" in the sense of the character has traveled across time and space to reach Hissui of the past and show once again the values that Arceus wanted to see again. So if the general context is to talk about an action,I think that "travel/cross" is a more direct translation if you don't want to be a bit vague with the terms.
But when talking about Arceus' universe, Arceus is just talking about where the player is located and the nature of that universe, so I don't think that it's used in the sense of "crossing" as in "time travel" or "travel between universes" (Dialga's world already seems to be the time between split seconds and Palkia's world already is the space between parallel spaces, so it being really in the sense of crossing space and time would just make Arceus live where Dialga and Palkia already live, and we know that isn't the case). So in this context, I do think that "koeta" really is used to mean "transcend" because it lacks the same context as the ending where it's talking about an action (That is, the term in the ending is referring to the context of what was happening that was time travel, while the first is talking about the nature of a place, so it makes sense to be "transcendence).
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It's implied through multiple avatars of 4-D stature, as lesser pieces of himself, that they are trivialized even to an avatar of The Heart. That's the main argument.
I thought that you needed bit more than that to qualify, but if that's enough then I too disagree with the downgrade then.
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However, the other translation thread (the one from reddit) seems to suggest another meaning as well, which is why I don't see that as particularly solid here.
The justification with the avatars seem way more solid, and the profile should reflect that better.
Sniper670
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Transcendence enough for low 1C?5D
Just that one statement that Cogita herself mentioned is far outside?
No. Transcendence has never been enough to prove qualitative superiority anyway.
Which is one of the basis why Yggdrasil was downgraded. That statement is not enough for such a huge jump from 4D to 5D
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I will note this on my cosmology page for the verse. However, I still failed to see a single statement talking about literal transcendence over the main universe means 5D. Not excluding the fact, that we no longer take name fallacy as a valid argument.
So any other evidence presented except those two? Name Fallacy, one statement?
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Palkia, Dialga and Giratina already are as big as the multiverse. They are nothing to Arceus, who can recreate them as it pleases and as many as he wants practically whenever he wants. The Heart trivializes that, as Arceus is but a mere aspect to it too.
That's different than just encompassing the multiverse.
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