Pokémon: Arceus Low 1-C Revision

[Sniper670]

Palkia, Dialga and Giratina already are as big as the multiverse. They are nothing to Arceus, who can recreate them as it pleases and as many as he wants practically whenever he wants. The Heart trivializes that, as Arceus is but a mere aspect to it too.

You mean their Avatars so no

I see no trivialization here.

If I encompass a 2A structure, basically I am the 2A structure, how does that make me 5D

That's different than just encompassing the multiverse.

There's none. I'm yet to see Trivialization

 

[Sniper670]

You see the flaw in Arceus low 1C ratings?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You mean their Avatars so no

"The Avatars" are themselves the aspect they embody. As in, there's no difference to their scale. That should be more than apparent given the lore.

If I encompass a 2A structure, basically I am the 2A structure, how does that make me 5D

... or you are way bigger than it and "it" (the structure) exists within you. That can also lead to proper transcendence, you know. And given how Arceus itself trivializes the 4-D structure, capable of pretty much doing whatever the hell it wants with it, the Heart trivializes even that. Yeah, I can see how that can qualify.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Being superior to 4-D space time in general is enough for Low 1-C here. Again, this is outlined in the notes of the tiering system page and was agreed in the original thread too to be enough.

And why does Cognitas statement keep being brought up?

 

[Sniper670]

"The Avatars" are themselves the aspect they embody. As in, there's no difference to their scale. That should be more than apparent given the lore.

And that makes the OS 5D? How

... or you are way bigger than it and "it" (the structure) exists within you. That can also lead to proper transcendence, you know. And given how Arceus itself trivializes the 4-D structure, capable of pretty much doing whatever the hell it wants with it, the Heart trivializes even that. Yeah, I can see how that can qualify.

Drop scans.

You talk a lot. We've been over 20 texts and I'm yet to see scans from you or the opposing staff

 

[Sniper670]

Being superior to 4-D space time in general is enough for Low 1-C here. Again, this is outlined in the notes of the tiering system page and was agreed in the original thread too to be enough.

And where is your scans.

I'm yet to see them.

I'll repeat. I made this thread solely on what I see on his profile. And none of the scans prove what you say

And why does Cognitas statement keep being brought up?

Because Cogita is the most knowledgeable about the Arceus lore in-game

And Arceus already says his realm is outside the boundary anyway, so it throws his realm 5Dness out the window

 

[Executor_N0]

However, the other translation thread (the one from reddit) seems to suggest another meaning as well, which is why I don't see that as particularly solid here.

The justification with the avatars seem way more solid, and the profile should reflect that better.

In regards to that, it's a part of the translator's own references to that stuff. Something I have seen there was some kind of way to know "it's used in the sense of superiority", when that isn't something that is really possible to say just by grammar, it's something with context. In the same way that there's no single word in English to be used in regard to "transcendence in the subject of superiority", there's also no way of saying that in Japanese.

Take the Koeru subject again, technically there are two kanjis that correspond to that, one that means "moving across, to the other side" and one that means "beyond", and yet there's a lot of moments where the Kanji with the sense of "Beyond" is used as "travel across", is a nuance in works of fiction that aren't really represented just if you use the dictionary.

Take "Kukan" (Space) as an example. It's a word to describe physical space as in the three-dimensional world we live in, yet there are a lot of moments when it's used as a generic word for "a different dimension, universe", something that Pokémon does a lot and I explained on my blog due to Palkia ruling over "Space", that includes "parallel spaces" that are the way they call parallel universes.

Asking those translations without knowing the context is always a double-edge sword.

In regards to the use of transcendence, I would say that the way that the creation myth is explained it always made sense for me for the Mind to be transcendent over time and space itself, something that is mentioned in more than one place (For example the statue in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Sky) and it makes sense to talk about the omnipotent creator of the universe that at the same time is everything in space-time and also is beyond that. But if we are talking about very direct mentions about being "infenitely stronger" similar stuff, I don't think it's possible to get that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Being superior to 4-D space time in general is enough for Low 1-C here. Again, this is outlined in the notes of the tiering system page and was agreed in the original thread too to be enough.

By itself, no it's not. I hate whataboutism with a passion, but Bayonetta and now recently LotR have contentions on that.

What makes Arceus qualify imo is the manner of how he is superior.

 

[Sniper670]

In regards to that, it's a part of the translator's own references to that stuff. Something I have seen there was some kind of way to know "it's used in the sense of superiority", when that isn't something that is really possible to say just by grammar, it's something with context. In the same way that there's no single word in English to be used in regard to "transcendence in the subject of superiority", there's also no way of saying that in Japanese.

Take the Koeru subject again, technically there are two kanjis that correspond to that, one that means "moving across, to the other side" and one that means "beyond", and yet there's a lot of moments where the Kanji with the sense of "Beyond" is used as "travel across", is a nuance in works of fiction that aren't really represented just if you use the dictionary.

Take "Kukan" (Space) as an example. It's a word to describe physical space as in the three-dimensional world we live in, yet there are a lot of moments when it's used as a generic word for "a different dimension, universe", something that Pokémon does a lot and I explained on my blog due to Palkia ruling over "Space", that includes "parallel spaces" that are the way they call parallel universes.

Asking those translations without knowing the context is always a double-edge sword.

In regards to the use of transcendence, I would say that the way that the creation myth is explained it always made sense for me for the Mind to be transcendent over time and space itself, something that is mentioned in more than one place (For example the statue in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon Explorers of Sky) and it makes sense to talk about the omnipotent creator of the universe that at the same time is everything in space-time and also is beyond that. But if we are talking about very direct mentions about being "infenitely stronger" similar stuff, I don't think it's possible to get that.

"It makes sense"

It makes sense for a lot of things but the wiki doesn't work that way.

You need scans that prove your claim, no?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Drop scans.

You talk a lot. We've been over 20 texts and I'm yet to see scans from you or the opposing staff

What scans, lol. I'm using your own justification against you. You keep saying how The Heart "encompasses" reality, and thus is only 4-D. But that can also be used as 5-D with the proper context. Which:

And that makes the OS 5D? How

Because 4-D already is insignificant to his avatar, that's stated to be akin to a fragment of itself (elaborated on Executor's blog).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It's implied through multiple avatars of 4-D stature, as lesser pieces of himself, that they are trivialized even to an avatar of The Heart. That's the main argument.

I thought that you needed bit more than that to qualify, but if that's enough then I too disagree with the downgrade then.

Pretty sure IIRC, you do need more further context for qualitative superiority. Heck, even our FAQ made mentions of this .

Also I not sure why we using a screenshot from Ultima on Discord in the thread that was accepted for Arceus’s Low 1C as he wasn’t given the context regarding Pokemon.
Anyway, I am neutral for the downgrade overall.

Not disagreeing with nor agreeing with.
Just neutral.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Pretty sure IIRC, you do need more further context for qualitative superiority. Heck, even our FAQ made mentions of this .

Also I not sure why we using a screenshot from Ultima on Discord in the thread that was accepted for Arceus’s Low 1C as he wasn’t given the context regarding Pokemon.
Anyway, I am neutral for the downgrade overall.

Not disagreeing with nor agreeing with.
Just neutral.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That's what I believe as well, but staff apparently accepted the thingy based on that (from what I understood on the original thread, and the subsequent one that made the rating more solid).

 

[Sniper670]

What scans, lol. I'm using your own justification against you. You keep saying how The Heart "encompasses" reality, and thus is only 4-D. But that can also be used as 5-D with the proper context. Which:

Of which there's none.

He's the 2A structure. Doesn't make him low 1C

Because 4-D already is insignificant to his avatar, that's stated to be akin to a fragment of itself (elaborated on Executor's blog).

"Insignificant?"

Being able to easily create 3D beings makes you 5D?

How does that prove anything beyond creation feat

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And where is your scans.

I'm yet to see them.

I'll repeat. I made this thread solely on what I see on his profile. And none of the scans prove what you say

This has already been answered, but either way, the viz scan your using is wrong. Viz is notorious for using wrong translations

And the manga by itself doesn’t just support this either. Things like the hiker quote and encompassing everything do as well.

Because Cogita is the most knowledgeable about the Arceus lore in-game

And Arceus’s word > hers. So again, why is she being referenced here?

And Arceus already says his realm is outside the boundary anyway, so it throws his realm 5Dness out the window

You didn’t show him saying this here. And outside the boundary doesn’t contradict me as outside can also mean beyond as well. It’s not explicitly a counter contradiction.

Arceus at the beginning of the game already stated as well that his realm is beyond space-time also, as said before.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"Insignificant?"

Being able to easily create 3D beings makes you 5D?

How does that prove anything beyond creation feat

3-D being whose heartbeat makes a 4-D structure flow... Huh.

Edit: And again, is not just he created them. He made them from itself, they cannot reach him and he can do so however he wants. That's complete superiority to them, who already are 4-D. The fact that The Heart can trivialize even that, is what shows his overall superiority to the verse, and thus 5-D.

 

[Sniper670]

This has already been answered, but either way, the viz scan your using is wrong. Viz is notorious for using wrong translations

Okay. It's more valid than fan translation so your scan is also dead in the water

And the manga by itself doesn’t just support this either. Things like the hiker quote and encompassing everything do as well.

Of which there is none on his profile.

I have a problem with the justification on his profile

And Arceus’s word > hers. So again, why is she being referenced here?

Okay. Arceus said his realm is outside the multiverse so her statement supports hers. Which would be a good range fest anyway

You didn’t show him saying this here. And outside the boundary doesn’t contradict me as outside can also mean beyond as well. It’s not explicitly a counter contradiction.

Well, Cogita exists. Unless you think your interpretation is beyond WoG using Cogita as a mouthpiece to give us info about Arceus

Arceus at the beginning of the game already stated as well that his realm is beyond space-time also, as said before.

Yes. It's outside of it

Plus, Transcendence has never been enough for the kind of jump you want so badly.


Yggdrasil has a direct statement of transcendence of time and space and this same Ultima you used to prove your point says that means nothing

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That's what I believe as well, but staff apparently accepted the thingy based on that (from what I understood on the original thread, and the subsequent one that made the rating more solid).

From what I see, it was based on the evidence as well as supporting evidence.

Disagree to this CRT, this was in fact not the reason the upgrade came about.

To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety and within in which all of space and time (and stuff outside space and time) are one, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.

In the initial CRT for Arceus’s true form, I see a lot of evidence being provided.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

From what I see, it was based on the evidence as well as supporting evidence.

In the initial CRT for Arceus’s true form, I see a lot of evidence being provided.

And that's what I'm explaining here. What I stated there is what that evidence means, pretty much.

 

[Sniper670]

3-D being whose heartbeat makes a 4-D structure flow... Huh.

Where are you getting at. It's creation feat.

Definitely not qualitative superiority

Edit: And again, is not just he created them. He made them from itself, they cannot reach him and he can do so however he wants. That's complete superiority to them, who already are 4-D. The fact that The Heart can trivialize even that, is what shows his overall superiority to the verse, and thus 5-D.

He made them from his body = 5D

I don't need to tell you how wrong that is

"The Heart can trivialize them."

You keep saying that but where are your scans. Definitely not on his profile. If you're willing to provide a better justification, be my guest


Anyway I'll change your vote to disagree.

 

[Sniper670]

True Form Arceus should get Low 1-C. As a reminder, this thread is only to discuss True Form Arceus receiving the potential upgrade, not upgrading the creation trio, the cosmology, or otherwise. A separate thread can, if desired, be made to discuss this for them later on.

And yet the only thing that touched on Arceus True Form in the justification was Omnipresence. Hinting at an absolute lack of evidence for anything close to Low 1-C

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

He made them from his body = 5D

I don't need to tell you how wrong that is

Yeah, cuz I didn't say that, ayy lmao. What I said is that it proves how he can already do whatever the hell he wants with 4-D coupled with the other things. And that proves superiority overall, not dimensionality. What proves the overall stature of The Heart is how even that is merely a fragment to "the reality he encompasses", as you put it.

The scans are on Executor's blog, btw, where he also provides more detailed explanation to this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay. It's more valid than fan translation so your scan is also dead in the water

We take fan translations over Vizs all the time, and this fan translation is a highly respected one that has been long running and translated thousands of pages worth of Pokémon manga material.

Okay. Arceus said his realm is outside the multiverse so her statement supports hers. Which would be a good range fest anyway

And? Your missing the point. Arceus saying “outside” (which, again, hasn’t been shown here but playing devils advocate) in the first place doesn’t contradict beyond. Outside doesn’t automatically = “not beyond”

Especially when this said being first said beyond space time anyway.

Well, Cogita exists. Unless you think your interpretation is beyond WoG using Cogita as a mouthpiece to give us info about Arceus

No, but I am saying Arceus’s interpretation takes precedence over Cognitas. So only what he says here matters.

Yes. It's outside of it

See above. Outside =/= not beyond.

Plus, Transcendence has never been enough for the kind of jump you want so badly.

I know….we went over this multiple times here now. This is circular.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

And that's what I'm explaining here. What I stated there is what that evidence means, pretty much.

Tbh, the CRT did list multiple evidences plus the blogs from @Executor_N0 .
Thread 'A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-cer...-low-1-c-upgrade-for-true-form-arceus.136195/

But, anyway, as I stated earlier, I am neutral towards the downgrade.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah, cuz I didn't say that, ayy lmao. What I said is that it proves how he can already do whatever the hell he wants with 4-D coupled with the other things. And that proves superiority overall, not dimensionality. What proves the overall stature of The Heart is how even that is merely a fragment to "the reality he encompasses", as you put it.

Where do you guys get
"mere fragment" seriously that's headcannon

"He can do whatever the hell he wants with 4D" creating 4D things doesn't make you superior.

You're stressing me out. How does he Heart become 5D for being the multiverse. Explain

The scans are on Executor's blog, btw, where he also provides more detailed explanation to this.

I have read it. Multiple times.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Tbh, the CRT did list multiple evidences plus the blogs from @Executor_N0 .
Thread 'A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-cer...-low-1-c-upgrade-for-true-form-arceus.136195/

But, anyway, as I stated earlier, I am neutral towards the downgrade.

I-- I know? That's what I'm trying to explain to @Sniper670 , but he doesn't see it as enough. That's the point of contention.

What I agree with him primarily is that the justification on the profile should explain this better. Because just saying stuff like "Oh yeah, he resists Hoopa, totally above everything" is kind of doo-doo imo.

 

[Sniper670]

Yes. Basically the justification on his profile is really bad and if no one can provide proper evidence, we nuke him back to 2A

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I-- I know? That's what I'm trying to explain to @Sniper670 , but he doesn't see it as enough. That's the point of contention.

What I agree with him primarily is that the justification on the profile should explain this better. Because just saying stuff like "Oh yeah, he resists Hoopa, totally above everything" is kind of doo-doo imo.

Yeah. Also I am kinda technically neutral to that CRT as well as the CRT did a bunch of explanation using in-verse statements plus WOG statement.

Anyway, I do think it will need better justification tbh since it seems one of the links for Arceus’s page is apparently invalid.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Where do you guys get
"mere fragment" seriously that's headcannon

But you read Executor's blog, huh.

Anyways, the thing has been pointed out to you. There are at least two threads and a blog going in detail, and seems multiple staff agree to it.

Only thing that needs to change imo is the justification. If other staff comes and conclude that these things aren't enough (which honestly is what I believe, but it is what it is), then so be it. You refusing to accept things is on you.

 

[Sniper670]

But you read Executor's blog, huh.

Anyways, the thing has been pointed out to you. There are at least two threads and a blog going in detail, and seems multiple staff agree to it.

Those Threads are crap.

Executor_N0 blog has something hinting at low 1C. Which is vague as hell but sure. Whatever, I'd rather we not use it than go away with possibly.

Seriously we trying to hard to make him Low 1C by grasping at straws

Only thing that needs to change imo is the justification. If other staff comes and conclude that these things aren't enough (which honestly is what I believe, but it is what it is), then so be it. You refusing to accept things is on you.

That's why I'm here. The justification is bad

 

[HammerStrikes219]

https://imgur.io/a/AQ4Ure6

This should been brought up as well.
Anyway, when Executor was talking about the Mind being superior to time and space, he was also mentioning Arceus as well.

 

[Sniper670]

https://imgur.io/a/AQ4Ure6

This should been brought up as well.
Anyway, when Executor was talking about the Mind being superior to time and space, he was referring to Arceus by the same token as well.

This is the ONLY thing hinting at qualitative superiority. Certainly not that nonsense that is on his profile. If this doesn't qualify, then I'm sorry I cannot think of a single thing that makes Arceus low 1C

 

[Sniper670]

For more context here the Heart is the same as awareness/perception/mind

The multiverse exists within this Mind, and the multiverse grows as it enriches.

Those familiar with the concept of Brahman, this is one such being

Still vague as hell but that's basically the only thing close to Low 1-C in the verse

@Executor_N0

 

[ImmortalDread]

Tbh, the CRT did list multiple evidences plus the blogs from @Executor_N0 .
Thread 'A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-cer...-low-1-c-upgrade-for-true-form-arceus.136195/

But, anyway, as I stated earlier, I am neutral towards the downgrade.

If I am recalling correctly, is it all presented in OP? Because I won't search for 5 pages for hidden scans.
If they are all, I will take a deep look and give my opinion based on it, as well as give notes to the cosmology page I am planning for it.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

If I am recalling correctly, is it all presented in OP? Because I won't search for 5 pages for hidden scans.
If they are all, I will take a deep look and give my opinion based on it, as well as give notes to the cosmology page I am planning for it.

There is already a blog made by @Executor_N0 regarding the Cosmology for Pokemon IIRC or was it someone else?

It was posted in a previous CRT before this downgrade CRT was ever posted.
Also still neutral overall.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Never mind, it was from Kukui.

2-A Pokemon Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is already a blog made by @Executor_N0 regarding the Cosmology for Pokemon IIRC or was it someone else?

It was posted in the previous CRT before this downgrade CRT was ever posted.
Also still neutral overall.

I checked everything, nothing was really related to cosmology, hence I created one and will be finishing it soon.
I mean, is that CRT you linked contain all information? I really don't want to go through 5 pages for it.

Never mind, it was from Kukui.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:professorKukui4Life/2-A_Pokemon_Cosmology_Blog

This is possibly 2-A. Not really low 1-C (+ yes, I am taking references and info from there).


I wonder why none really create an official page for this large verse, lol.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I checked everything, nothing was really related to cosmology, hence I created one and will be finishing it soon.
I mean, is that CRT you linked contain all information? I really don't want to go through 5 pages for it.

This is possibly 2-A. Not really low 1-C (+ yes, I am taking references and info from there).


I wonder why none really create an official page for this large verse, lol.

If you talking about the multiple scans and other statements relating to Arceus’s upgrade to Low 1C. It was in the first post from the OP.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-certain-llama-wants-in-on-the-low-1-c-club-pokemon-low-1-c-upgrade-for-true-form-arceus.136195/

 

[ShivaShakti]

I am going to disagree. The OP's use of the Yggdrasil downgrade simply ignores the context of the actual thread. It wasn't that "transcendence isn't enough" it was that a great portion of the justification was the claim that The Nine Realms were contained within the Yggdrasil. The argument was refuted because there wasn't evidence for the 9 realms being an infinitesimal point contained in the greater Yggdrasil.

Arceus is Low 1-C for different reasons, for he exists within a realm beyond the Pokemon Multiverse, and has statements of transcendence to coincide with this.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you talking about the multiple scans and other statements relating to Arceus’s upgrade to Low 1C. It was in the first post from the OP.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-certain-llama-wants-in-on-the-low-1-c-club-pokemon-low-1-c-upgrade-for-true-form-arceus.136195/

Thank you, I will check everything then.

Also here is my project regarding this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ImmortalDread/PokémonCosmology

 

[Sniper670]

I am going to disagree. The OP's use of the Yggdrasil downgrade simply ignores the context of the actual thread. It wasn't that "transcendence isn't enough" it was that a great portion of the justification was the claim that The Nine Realms were contained within the Yggdrasil. The argument was refuted because there wasn't evidence for the 9 realms being an infinitesimal point contained in the greater Yggdrasil.

Are you saying a single statement like that is enough?

And no, Yggdrasil has a direct statement of transcendence over space and time. Definitely not Low 1C.

Never has been. We don't make such a leap without context. And in this case it means Arceus realm is outside

Arceus is Low 1-C for different reasons, for he exists within a realm beyond the Pokemon Multiverse, and has statements of transcendence to coincide with this.

Beyond meaning outside, as mentioned by Arceus himself as well as a very knowledgeable character in the series Cogita