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Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
- Start date
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- #522
No. This is about the plates. I’m not going to have another drawn out argument about the battle reverie.
you lost this one. Go work on reinstating the abilities with a new crt.
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- #524
The plates alone are not enough. The profile uses the plates. To add the battle reverie as the main source of proof requires an entirely different discussion
Sniper670
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The Plates are valid as well and so in the end, nothing needs to be changed
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- #526
Did you not read the sentence?
anyways, Ant the majority of staff on here agree the plates don’t support Arceus having these abilities or that the evidence is weak and needs more.
For the time being the added plates abilites should be removed from the profile and can be added after a NEW crt thread about the battle reverie evidence has been made and discussed.
this conversation has run its course and won’t go anywhere.
Sniper670
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Again you're wrong. The Plates are there to support the notion that Arceus has all powers. In addition to Eternal Battle Reverie
Which is what Moritz noted
Yup. We're done. I'll add a note about eternal battle reverie in addition to the plates.
Sniper670
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Yes. Very few knowledgeable staff made it here. It's best to wait
Sniper670
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We haven't discussed the battle reverie in full. It will create another few pages of back and forth. It going to become cluttered with basically three arguments going:
1. arguing over the plates as supporting evidence (what this thread is about)
2. arguing over the battle reverie as supporting evidence
3. arguing over the battle reverie and the plates together as supporting evidence.
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now i'll connect abilities to types, and if it is not big enough, connect moves to abilities
Adaptability powers up moves of the same type as the Pokémon, Aerilate turns normal moves into flying ones, Blaze powers up Fire-type moves when the Pokémon’s HP is low, Flash fire powers up the Pokémon’s Fire-type moves if it’s hit by one, fluffy, because those mons got a lot of fur, makes you take 2x damage from fire-type moves, Galvanize turns Normal-type moves to Electric-type moves and power of those moves is boosted a little, Liquid voice turns sound-based moves into Water-type moves, Mmicry changes the pokemon type to that of the terrain (flowing with energy that is used by some moves, as i mentioned), normalize turns all pokemon moves into normal type (blank plate contains the essence of "normalcy"), water bubble halves damage from Fire-type moves, doubles power of Water-type moves used, and prevents burns, Psychic/misty/electric/grassy surge The Pokémon creates a Terrain of a certain type when it enters a battle.
now connect abilities to moves, most above count but i'll focus on more general ones, abilities first:
bulletproof protects user from ball and bomb moves, ice scales halves damage from Special moves, iron fist boosts the power of punching moves, Long reach the Pokémon uses its moves without making contact with the target, magic bounce reflects status- changing moves, neuroforce powers up moves that are super effective, queenly majesty prevents use of priority moves, sand force boosts certain moves' power in a sandstorm, screen cleaner nullifies effects of Light Screen, Reflect, and Aurora Veil, technian powers up the Pokémon's weaker moves.
moves:
Gastro acid cancels out the effect of the opponent's Ability, core enforcer suppresses the target's ability if the target has already moved, moongeist beam ignores the target's ability, role play user copies the opponent's Ability, snipe shot ignores moves and abilities that draw in moves,
skill swap: The user employs its psychic power to exchange Abilities with the target.
simple: The user’s mysterious psychic wave changes the target’s Ability to Simple.
yeah, i fail to see any distinctions between types, status, moves and abilities power-wise, they all seem very connected to me, be it buffing/nerfing each other, drawing power from each other and even modifying each other, all also showing energies being used, and also having physical representations.
oh, someone worthy mentioningis regidrago, check out it's signature ability and shield pokedex entry:
dragon's maw: Powers up Dragon-type moves.
Pokedex entry: Its body is composed of crystallized dragon energy. Regidrago is said to have the powers of every dragon Pokémon.
i wanna understand how "the powers of every dragon pokemon" does not lead to the context of abilities when it even says powers, plural, last i checked, a lot of dragon pokemon don't have signature powers that aren't moves.
so the same entry that says it has the powers of every dragon pokemon, talks about it being made of dragon energy, and it's signature ability powers up dragon-type moves, and the draco plate has the essence of dragons too.
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That seems like it would set a terrible precedence. Tons of other creator entities that created everyone in their verse don't get all abilities from their creations.
Quite frankly, there is just not much of a relation between being able to create an entity that can learn an ability and having it yourself.
I mean, some of those abilities straight up come from physiological aspects Arceus doesn't even have. Like Cryogonal's ability to regenerate after being turned to water, which only makes sense since it is made out of ice, which Arceus isn't. Or Dark Matter's ability to regenerate due to being the incarnation of negative emotions, which Arceus just isn't.
That argument goes against our running standards, as far as I am aware. If we seriously consider using it here, then we should have a debate about the standard in general, as this argument can be used for many other characters as well.
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he'd have access to them, he doesn't need to already have the physiology for it when it is just an avatar, also mesprint is literally all emotions incarnate and is a piece of arceus so yes, he is, mesprit not scaling can either be added or, if it is really so wrong, just don't include physiological abilities i guess? the rest of the moves are covered by the types/plates anyway so losing super specific power doesn't sound like an argument for the other non-physiological abilities
i kinda agree with battle reviere not being great evidence due to that standard though, even as supporting evidence it is meh, the main argument should be connecting the plates, types, moves and abilities
Sniper670
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Yes. You make a great point overall.
It's the energy that allows for the powers to be used. One of the reasons why Regidrago composed of crystallized Dragon Energy, can use all dragon type moves.
And then we have Arceus who has the literal Essense of all powers. I fail to see why he shouldn't be capable of doing anything any one can
Sniper670
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This.
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Technically every move appears to require a certain physiology, though. Or at least something similar.
Why can Pikachu learn Volt Tackle, but a member of the Zebstrika species will never be able to, despite both having access to the electric type? The only reason I can see is that the Pikachu species has some attribute that the Zebstrika species lacks. An attribute responsible for allowing them to learn that move.
And if not every electric type has that attribute, how do we know Arceus has it?
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That's just the magician argument all over again. Every magician has the same mana, but not every magician can learn the same spells.
All dragon-types have access to Dragon-Type energy/power, but they can't all use all dragon moves.
If others with access to dragon-type power/energy can't, why can Arceus?
We've been over that. No need to repeat us further.
Not all ice types are made out of ice either, though. Other ice types don't have that ability. Just this specific one made out of ice.
As you know, the way I read the quotes, the plates grant power, as in energy, not powers as in abilities.
Lots of creator entities can come up with equally vague evidence as support. Could name you three examples from the top of my head. Will leave them out in the assumption that you don't want to hear them.
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It seems were going to just continue the debating. Then so be it.
I agree with DT, that creators don't automatically get the abilities of their creation unless its specific stated that the creation is an aspect of them or avatars or extensions of their beings. This is why Arceus has the abilities of the creation trio and the lake trio. For the rest of pokemon, they are not created directly by Arceus. Pokemon form naturally in nature via evolution and environmental factors. They can even go extinct. Pokemon can be created by humans directly, or be created by the artificial environment of humans such as Banette forming from an abandoned doll. Humans can become pokemon in the case of phantump who used to be lost child. We have no confirmation that Arceus, or the Original One handcrafts each pokemon, and even if we did, we still need confirmation that they are aspects of them, avatars, or extensions.
As for the Battle Reverie, I disagree that it supports the idea of Arceus gaining the power, moves, and abilities of every Pokemon. For one, The Original One being able create/summon the pokemon doesn't give him the abilties of these pokemon. Characters who can summon other beings don't automatically get the abilities of those summons. Those summons however are written as separate keys, or the abilities are written as, "xxx, yyy, zzz with summon".
Not to mention, Hoopa and Unown are both able to summon/create pokemon. That doesn't mean they have the ability to use the powers of every pokemon they summon and create. And unown can create pokemon that are stronger than them such as Entei.
And during the Battle Reverie, you can use Arceus while the Original One challenges you and the Arceus you use has access to the legend plate. This I believe completely null and voids the idea that the plates give Arceus the powers of every pokemon. The Original One views Arceus just as any other pokemon.
I agree with DT, that creators don't automatically get the abilities of their creation unless its specific stated that the creation is an aspect of them or avatars or extensions of their beings. This is why Arceus has the abilities of the creation trio and the lake trio. For the rest of pokemon, they are not created directly by Arceus. Pokemon form naturally in nature via evolution and environmental factors. They can even go extinct. Pokemon can be created by humans directly, or be created by the artificial environment of humans such as Banette forming from an abandoned doll. Humans can become pokemon in the case of phantump who used to be lost child. We have no confirmation that Arceus, or the Original One handcrafts each pokemon, and even if we did, we still need confirmation that they are aspects of them, avatars, or extensions.
As for the Battle Reverie, I disagree that it supports the idea of Arceus gaining the power, moves, and abilities of every Pokemon. For one, The Original One being able create/summon the pokemon doesn't give him the abilties of these pokemon. Characters who can summon other beings don't automatically get the abilities of those summons. Those summons however are written as separate keys, or the abilities are written as, "xxx, yyy, zzz with summon".
Not to mention, Hoopa and Unown are both able to summon/create pokemon. That doesn't mean they have the ability to use the powers of every pokemon they summon and create. And unown can create pokemon that are stronger than them such as Entei.
And during the Battle Reverie, you can use Arceus while the Original One challenges you and the Arceus you use has access to the legend plate. This I believe completely null and voids the idea that the plates give Arceus the powers of every pokemon. The Original One views Arceus just as any other pokemon.
Sniper670
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Regidrago can use all dragon moves because he has dense crystallized dragon energy on his body.
So yes, for Pokémon, more energy = access to more moves. Arceus plates literally holds the Essence of their powers, so he gets it all
Well yeah. It's a pretty big evidence for Arceus having all powers
Yes. But how does that contradict the fact that the plates has the power of everything?
We're arguing plates here
As mentioned above, more energy = access to more moves
It's the exact same for Psychic energy and all energy from Plates, which Arceus has the essence
Don't forget, every verse works differently. For Pokémon it's mentioned several times the plates have the power of everything.
And in Eternal Battle Reverie, he can easily replicate any and all Pokémon, even man made one's no problem
Sniper670
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The plates dictates what power they can use so yes, everything is an aspect of Arceus
It's exactly why the Plates have the power of all things even though new Pokémon keep being born. Regardless of whether you'll be born a trillion years from now, Arceus has your power
It's Conceptual Creation. The Plates are literally concepts that dictate Typings
Arceus doesn't come down from heaven to grant you a type, the Typings are there for Pokémon to be born around. It's why the Flame Plate which has the power of defeated giants, is somehow shared across the multiverse with Pokémon being born with flame physiology and existing all the same.
It's a Conceptual Thing as I've mentioned
Arceus, is the Original One's stand-in. And the Original One uses Arceus for any and all interactions in the verse. So yes, his Avatar is getting all powers regardless.
That has already been confirmed by the plates and it pains me supporters lost interest in Pokémon since the canon split. This would've been closed days ago.
You're should be thankful for that
Hoopa and Unown are not confirmed to have the power of all things
Hence, the plates supporting Eternal Battle Reverie. Which is said earlier today. Moritzva also said same
"This I believe", and there you go trying to use your headcannon to overwrite the lore.
Do note Original One never made an appearance in PLA. It's His Avatar from A to Z. Everything is done with and via Avatars.
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That's definitely not true, as much more powerful Pokémon can not have access to moves vastly weaker Pokémon can learn if their species don't allow them to.
E.g. Deoxys can't learn confusion but definitely has vastly more psychic power than a Ralts.
Regidrago likely has an additional reason for being able to supposedly use all dragon powers (technically the dex entry only claims that this is said to be the case). In fact, the Pokédex entry doesn't state that it has all powers due to the energy. Unless there's some Japanese translation I'm unaware of where a causal relationship between the two statements is suggested.
*power
No, but it contradicts the idea that all those with access to ice-type energy have this ability.
Meaning that someone with access to all ice-type energy wouldn't necessarily have it either.
Arceus has psychic energy and can use psychic attacks, no doubt. But, as said, I don't see that as evidence of him having mastered every application of psychic energy.
Most other verses just have "mana" or similar as the power of all supernatural abilities. So by that the gods using mana also have the power of everything.
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- Thread starter
- #546
No it doesn't.
Where has it ever been stated that the plates controls what powers a pokemon has?
The plates are literally physical things that regular people can hold and find.
Avatars don't get all the powers of their creators. By that logic, the creation trio will have all the powers of the Arceus too.
Where are you getting this "power of all things" that's not stated anywhere.
The Original One talks to the player or if that's just another Arceus who cares. The main thing is that you're ignoring the fact that I said the player with the Arceus and the legend plate can take part of the Reverie, so the Original One or the Arceus (which ever you want to believe it is) that creates the challenge doesn't have the legend plate. So they're creating/summoning pokemon without it.
Sniper670
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Alright
What does this tell us
1. More Dragon Energy=More power
2. More Dragon Energy=Acess to more moves.
Regidrago, due to being composed entirely of Crystalline energy, has the powers of all dragon Type.
And there Arceus who's plates have the power of all things
That's false. Psychic Pokémon do not have what they can learn and what they can't. More potency = you can do more. It's simple as that.
And please stop using Game mechanics here. You claim you have minimal knowledge about Pokémon and I'm starting to question your presence here
It is because of being composed of Dragon Energy. Which I've shown earlier.
It doesn't contradict the fact its the powers of the plates that is being shared amongst Pokémon
Regidrago being composed of Dragon Energy allowed him usage of every move so yes, more energy = more access to moves
Having mastered. When he literally has the conception of Psychic Energy on the plate.
The Plates is what gives the multiverse its Typings. And Arceus plates have the power of all things. I fail to see any selective statements being made here except your headcannon
Every verse has their way of doing things.
Going purely by Pokémon more energy = access to more moves
As seen from Regidrago
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@Antvasima Do you think we should debate whether we take creating a verse as (strong supporting) evidence for the creator entity having all abilities in it in a staff thread? Or a separate thread at least?
It seems to me like approving that as precedence here would have rather far-reaching consequences, so perhaps it would be wise to debate it disjoint from the Pokémon case.
It seems to me like approving that as precedence here would have rather far-reaching consequences, so perhaps it would be wise to debate it disjoint from the Pokémon case.
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Regidrago can't learn Spacial Rend or Roar of Time.
Sniper670
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Now tell me why a man made Pokémon is a psychic type. Drawing Power from Plates
Of course. Now try to use the powers within them if you're not Arceus. The plates here are fragments of himself and contains within them the essence of things. Essence of Normalcy... Normalcy here, isn't even a physical thing. And the Plates here dictating the powers of anything at all proves their concepts for tbe multiverse Pokémon to be born around
Arceus is the Avatar's stand in, so they get the powers. The plates being the biggest evidence of that
Translation :
Who? The Original One has never made any appearance. Are you lost?
And the point you're making doesn't even make sense to begin with. It's clear you don't even understand what you're talking about
Sniper670
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Sniper670
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Translation :
Yes. Nothing you do, will affect Arceus or anything related to Pokémon
So you're free to make a thread talking about creator gods getting powers of their verse because Arceus has a ton of evidence pointing to that
Pikaman
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The things I would do to never hear the words “Game Mechanics” in a Pokémon thread again the way it’s used...
I agree with your stance on the CRT at a glance, and admittedly haven’t payed much attention to the debate going on, but typings aren’t game mechanics, nor are the way moves are assigned them
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A separate staff forum thread seems best for this purpose, but I vaguely recall that we likely have an inactive thread for this topic already.
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Because pokemon are inherently born with a type. It's just how the world works.
The shards are created from the universe. The essence is what's abstract. The plates are not. In fact, its an even better argument that pokemon get their types from the essences of types.
And no, before you say it, the plates aren't the essences of types, or contain all the essences of type. They simply imbued with some.
And again, there is no evidence or statement that says the plates decide what powers a being gets. That's your headcannon.
That's not true at all. Avatars don't get all the powers of their creators. Are you going to argue Palkia has all the powers of Arceus?
The English translations says:
A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is. |
and my translation of the Japanese text says this:
Legend Plate
A stone with the power of all things. When used on a Pokémon, it gains all types of powers.
And I know my translation is more accurate because the word, pokemon only comes up once:
legend plate banbutsu no riki ga yadok ta ishiban . aru pokemon ni tsukau to arayuru type no riki wo eru .
Power refers to Essence here.
Let me explain it to you then: During the Battle Reverie. The Player can use an Arceus. The Arceus the player uses has the legend plate. That means the "Arceus" that is running the battle Reverie, doesn't have the legends plate when it is creating/summoning pokemon.
Are you kidding me? I'm just going to default to what Pikamin said.
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Actually not what the quotes say. They say it's composed of dragon-energy and they say that it has access to all moves. The quote doesn't say that it has access to all moves for the reason of having access to that energy.
Are you suggesting that every Pokémon can learn every move of their type once it becomes strong enough? That's a can of worm that's not accepted on any level right now, given that otherwise all the Pokémon species profiles would also have to list all moves of the Pokémon species' type.
I guarantee you that you won't be able to get that accepted, but if you wish to continue that line of argument try create a separate thread about adding all the abilities corresponding to their types to every Pokémon species profile.
No gatekeeping threads, m8.
It doesn't contradict that it's powered by mana, but it does contradict that everyone with mana can use that spell.
And Noah is the incarnation of all concepts of the multiverse yet is far from having mastered literally everything. Being the source of a concept/power means little for having the ability to use it optimally in every aspect.
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Hmmm... do we? I will look tomorrow if I can find that then.
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Is somebody able to try to find the relevant URL please?
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Well, I do vaguely recall that we discussed the topic of characters such as The One Above All receiving all other character powers automatically at least.
Sniper670
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And it's because of this Dragon Energy composition that he can use all dragon moves
No. The Reason Regidrago has all dragon power is because he's composed directly of Crystalline Dragon Energy, as opposed to other dragons being normal creatures
I have done so. Op decided to make this crt so I'm here
Arceus has the spell book with limitless mana here.. I don't see why he can't use the spells when he's the one directly distributing the spells to others
Of course. Because Noah is a Pokémon now. Or he's in Pokémon?
Why are you using other verses to rate others. I mean, is it Pokémon?
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