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Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

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This thread is long, so I’ll just restate the final arguments for everyone’s convenience.

The current page for Arceus, uses an incomplete quote to justify that Arceus has every moveset, ability, and power of all pokemon and non-pokemon.

The complete quote references to just Arceus changing his type.

It has been argued that the plates give Arceus all powers, abilities, and moves. However none of the statements have directly said any of this. The closest statement is a single translation that says, “has the power of everything” with no other supporting detail. This same line has been translated as supreme power, power of creation. The line is most likely refer to the plate having the power of all type, as the essence of each type is in them and allows Arceus to change type.

some other contradictions to this assertion that the plates provide every single power, move, and ability in the franchise are these:

1. pokemon existed before the plates. The plates were created from the shards of the universe, but pokemon predate the universe. These pokemon had powers and abilities, and moves before the plate existed so their power doesn’t come from the plate.

2. the plates are infused with the power of giants. These giants are not said to be created by anyone, invluding Arceus so it is erroneous to claim the power of everything comes from just Arceus.

3. arceus cannot learn every move. In fact, there are moves that Arceus cannot learn that the creation trio can. This means that even pokemon that were created by Arceus have power that’s independent to him. Mew can learn any move in the franchise, and this is expressed in the games by Mew learning every teachable move. If the creators of the pokemon series expressed their belief that Arceus can use every move, they would express that by allowing Arceus to learn every teachable move but they specifically did not.

4. Arceus has only shown to have one ability in the main games, anime, and manga. Besides Pokemon Conquest, a spin-off where he was three distinct abilites, Arceus always have his one ability and has never once in canon shown to have other abilities like (speed boost, shield dust, wonder guard). Arceus has only shown to use the plates to change his type and use the general abilites of said type for ex. He changes to a water type and uses the plate to use water manipulation. He has never shown to use the plate to gain an ability like swift-swim.

5. If the theory of the plates giving everything their power is true, that theory requires all beings to remotely draw power from the plates. Yet, Arceus cannot draw power from the plates when they are not in his position. Why can every being remotely draw power from the plates but not Arceus? Its very obvious that Beings do not get their powers from the plate but are rather born with it

6. the profile is picking and choosing which abilities to give Arceus. Abilites are passive or conditional. Most cannot be turned off and on. Yet, the profile does not give Arceus abilties such as Klutz (which would prevent him from holding the plates), Slow Start, which halves his power and speed, Truant, which requires him to rest after each move. Contrary, which forces boosts to be weakeners, and other abilities. Its apparent that the idea that the plates give arceus every power in existence is used to pad Arceus profile to make him more powerful and not as a way to accurately reflect source material, or those abilities would be written as weaknesses on his profile. The counter argument that Arceus chooses which ability to use and activate is not supported by any statement or showing in the source material.

7. The one line that maybe supports the idea that pokemon get their abilities from the plates, " " has several translations that clarify that is about Arceus specifically gaining power from the plates:

English: “The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.”​
Spanish: "Al Pokémon surgido del Huevo, las tablas agracian con su poder"​
Translation: "To the Pokémon that emerged from the Egg, the plates grace with their power"​
French: Le pouvoir des plaques fut conféré au Pokémon qui naquit de l’Œuf.​
Translation: The power of the plates was conferred on the Pokémon that was born from the Egg.​
Italian: Il Pokémon appena nato poté attingere al potere delle lastre.​
Translation: The newborn Pokémon could tap into the power of the plates.​
German: Als das Pokémon aus dem Ei schlüpfte, wurde ihm die Kraft der Tafeln zuteil.​
Translation: When the Pokémon hatched from the egg, it was given the power of the tablets.​



8. there are no direct statements thats say every being in pokemon get all their powers from the plates. Its bases is taking a single statement and stretching it to its most highest interpretation with no supporting details and many contradictions. The sing
 
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If we compare the texts of all kinds of different languages let me add the german one:
Dieser Steintafel wohnt eine universelle Energie inne. Wird sie auf ein bestimmtes Pokémon angewendet, erlangt es die Kraft aller Typen.
Which translates to
"This stone plate inhabits a universal (as in general purpose) energy. If it is used on a certain Pokémon, it gains the strength of all types."


So I still remain in my position that the plates have type energies in them on which Arceus can draw, but that there is absolutely nothing indicating that he can use all techniques associated with a type, much less the technique of every Pokémon.

I don't particularily care about whether other Pokémon draw their power/energy from the plates or not. It's of no consequence to anyone's ranking or abilities IMO.
 
If we compare the texts of all kinds of different languages let me add the german one:

Which translates to
"This stone plate inhabits a universal (as in general purpose) energy. If it is used on a certain Pokémon, it gains the strength of all types."
Cool. Most of the translation tell us it has the power of all things that allows him to use the power of all types of Pokémon

I see absolutely no reason Pokémon can do anything he can't. As mentioned on the plates

That's beside the fact its mentioned the plates determines the abilities of Pokémon and that the power of Plates are shared amongst all Pokémon
So I still remain in my position that the plates have type energies in them on which Arceus can draw, but that there is absolutely nothing indicating that he can use all techniques associated with a type, much less the technique of every Pokémon.
The plates have a power of all things. Are you arguing with lore here?

Antvasima please take a look at the scans and give us your opinion.
I don't particularily care about whether other Pokémon draw their power/energy from the plates or not. It's of no consequence to anyone's ranking or abilities IMO.
Sure
 
It's the same people agreeing with mod, even with explicit evidence. You can see DT picked the one which agreed with him and interpreted it however he liked

Most of the translations pointed to exactly what it meant.

We're arguing God being mentioned to have the power of all things does not have the power of all things because you say so.
 
Cool. Most of the translation tell us it has the power of all things that allows him to use the power of all types of Pokémon

I see absolutely no reason Pokémon can do anything he can't. As mentioned on the plates

That's beside the fact its mentioned the plates determines the abilities of Pokémon and that the power of Plates are shared amongst all Pokémon
"Power" can have various interpretations, one of which is energy. By all I have seen energy is the most likely and least assumptive interpretation.

I see nothing mentioned on the plates stating "Arceus can do everything other Pokémon can".

The plates have a power of all things. Are you arguing with lore here?
The power of all things means not the abilities of every Pokémon. It talks about it containing the energy of all types. If it meant all abilities then, grammatically, it would need to say "the powers of all things" as we are talking about many abilities. Also, as you yourself discovered, most translation talk about supreme power or energy, so that is probably what is intended.

So yeah. Power = strength / energy, not abilities. Nothing indicates he has all abilities.
 
It's the same people agreeing with mod, even with explicit evidence. You can see DT picked the one which agreed with him and interpreted it however he liked
All of those agree with me tbh.

"power of everything" would indicate one kind of power, not many different ones.

"with supreme power" indicates one power, not many different abilities.

"the energy of creation" indicates that we talk about an energy, not about all supernatural abilities.

"the power of all things" Indicates one power that is of all things, not many different abilities.

And the german "universal energy" indicates once again an energy.

The energy interpretation is in line with all those translations.
 
"Power" can have various interpretations, one of which is energy. By all I have seen energy is the most likely and least assumptive interpretation.
1. The plates are mentioned to have the power of all things
2. Pokémon abilities are determined by Plates

So no, there's no other way to interpret it

And there's no energy system at play. You, yourself disagreed in the arceus crt, and it's currently nonexistent
I see nothing mentioned on the plates stating "Arceus can do everything other Pokémon can".
The plates have the power of all things that allows him to use the powers of all types of Pokémon
The power of all things means not the abilities of every Pokémon. It talks about it containing the energy of all types. If it meant all abilities then, grammatically, it would need to say "the powers of all things" as we are talking about many abilities.
うまれてくる ポケモン プレートの ちから わけあたえられる
そのもの

The ability of an unborn Pokémon plate to determine
what it is

So you're wrong as usual
So yeah. Power = strength / energy, not abilities. Nothing indicates he has all abilities.
Explained above.
 
All of those agree with me tbh.

"power of everything" would indicate one kind of power, not many different ones.
It's from the Legend Plate. It allows Arceus to use the power of every type. So no, it's not indicating only one kind of power
"with supreme power" indicates one power, not many different abilities.
Japanese Translation makes it clear what it means.. Which should be taken priority here.
Most of the other translation also compliments the Japanese version, including the English version which is the next most accurate besides Japanese
"the energy of creation" indicates that we talk about an energy, not about all supernatural abilities.
There's no energy. Again, Japanese has priority over the others. The others were there to compliment it
"the power of all things" Indicates one power that is of all things, not many different abilities.
This is false, and I've explained earlier
And the german "universal energy" indicates once again an energy.
Okay. I'm getting sick of "mah energy".

Pokemon powers are shared to them from plates. And it's what determines the powers of Pokémon from the get go.

So saying "energy" here does not invalidate the fact the power of all things is on the plate
 
Thank you for helping out, DontTalk. I think that you seem to make sense above.
 
1. The plates are mentioned to have the power of all things
2. Pokémon abilities are determined by Plates

So no, there's no other way to interpret it

And there's no energy system at play. You, yourself disagreed in the arceus crt, and it's currently nonexistent
There's no universal energy system by our standards (which demand that things scale in stats and stuff), which doesn't mean that Pokémon don't use energy.

Your are reasoning an equality from an inclusion. Abilities have types, doesn't mean that having types alone grants abilities.

The plates have the power of all things that allows him to use the powers of all types of Pokémon
Power of all types, not all moves of all types.

うまれてくる ポケモン プレートの ちから わけあたえられる
そのもの

The ability of an unborn Pokémon plate to determine
what it is

So you're wrong as usual
That quote relates to literally nothing that was said.

It's from the Legend Plate. It allows Arceus to use the power of every type. So no, it's not indicating only one kind of power
It's one power per type. If it talked about the many abilities of each type it would need to be plural.

Japanese Translation makes it clear what it means.. Which should be taken priority here.
Most of the other translation also compliments the Japanese version, including the English version which is the next most accurate besides Japanese
Why post the translations if you disregard them as soon as they don't suit you?

Not sure why you assess that the english one would be "the next most accurate" either.

The japanese version really doesn't clarify in your favor, no.

Okay. I'm getting sick of "mah energy".

Pokemon powers are shared to them from plates. And it's what determines the powers of Pokémon from the get go.

So saying "energy" here does not invalidate the fact the power of all things is on the plate
It confirms that the power of all things is referring to energy, which in turn means this descriptions are not talking about Arceus knowing every possible move and ability, but just about him having the energy i.e. power of every type.
 
There's no universal energy system by our standards (which demand that things scale in stats and stuff), which doesn't mean that Pokémon don't use energy.
They don't
Your are reasoning an equality from an inclusion. Abilities have types, doesn't mean that having types alone grants abilities.
But that is exactly what the Plates imply
Power of all types, not all moves of all types.
Again, moves are born from the types. Which the plates make clear he has all their powers
That quote relates to literally nothing that was said.
Sure.
It's one power per type. If it talked about the many abilities of each type it would need to be plural.
The Plates encompasses everything. It has the essence of all creation. There no if or buts, it has all
Why post the translations if you disregard them as soon as they don't suit you?
Again, I did so to show you what it meant, with regards to it complimenting what the Japanese version said. Which most of the translations seem to do
Not sure why you assess that the english one would be "the next most accurate" either.
That's how it works with Pokémon. Plus, Japanese version confirms exactly what I meant
The japanese version really doesn't clarify in your favor, no.
It does. It's made clear it has the power of all things which allows him to use the power of all types of Pokémon, no?
Yes
It confirms that the power of all things is referring to energy, which in turn means this descriptions are not talking about Arceus knowing every possible move and ability, but just about him having the energy i.e. power of every type.
The Plates determines the abilities and powers of Pokémon. It's mentioned the powers of Plates are shared amongst Pokémon and Pokémon are born with the power of the plates.
 

English: “The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.”

Spanish: "Al Pokémon surgido del Huevo, las tablas agracian con su poder"

Translation: "To the Pokémon that emerged from the Egg, the plates grace with their power"

French: Le pouvoir des plaques fut conféré au Pokémon qui naquit de l’Œuf.

Translation: The power of the plates was conferred on the Pokémon that was born from the Egg.

Italian: Il Pokémon appena nato poté attingere al potere delle lastre.

Translation: The newborn Pokémon could tap into the power of the plates.

German: Als das Pokémon aus dem Ei schlüpfte, wurde ihm die Kraft der Tafeln zuteil.

Translation: When the Pokémon hatched from the egg, it was given the power of the tablets.


That japanese you posted is about Arceus hatching from the egg, and the plates giving him powers. It's not about every pokemon getting their powers from the plates.
 
生まれてくる ポケモン プレートの力 わけあたえられる

Pokémon born with the power of the plate.

So again, you're wrong there
 
The sentence you showed up:

うまれてくる ポケモン プレートの ちから わけあたえられる
Umaretekuru Pokemon Purēto no chikara wakeataerareru
…can be translated as Jwscorch already did. Maybe also:

The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon who come to this world
Word by word:

生まれてくる (umaretekuru) = to be born, to come into the world
ポケモン (Pokemon) = Pokémon
プレート (Purēto) = plate
(chikara) = power
分け与えられる (wakeataerareru) = distribute, share
 
English: “The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon.”

Spanish: "Al Pokémon surgido del Huevo, las tablas agracian con su poder"

Translation: "To the Pokémon that emerged from the Egg, the plates grace with their power"

French: Le pouvoir des plaques fut conféré au Pokémon qui naquit de l’Œuf.

Translation: The power of the plates was conferred on the Pokémon that was born from the Egg.

Italian: Il Pokémon appena nato poté attingere al potere delle lastre.

Translation: The newborn Pokémon could tap into the power of the plates.

German: Als das Pokémon aus dem Ei schlüpfte, wurde ihm die Kraft der Tafeln zuteil.

Translation: When the Pokémon hatched from the egg, it was given the power of the tablets.


That japanese you posted is about Arceus hatching from the egg, and the plates giving him powers. It's not about every pokemon getting their powers from the plates.
The Japanese basically confirms Pokémon that are born from the egg refers to all Pokémon that are born into the world and not Arceus. As that is exactly what it meant
The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon who come to this world

So in the end, you helped my argument. Thank you
 
The Japanese basically confirms Pokémon that are born from the egg refers to all Pokémon that are born into the world and not Arceus. As that is exactly what it meant


So in the end, you helped my argument. Thank you
Nice try, they are all using definitive pronoun, meaning their talking about a specific Pokémon, aka Arceus the pokemon being hatched from the egg that formed from chaos in the very same poem.
 
Nice try, they are all using definitive pronoun, meaning their talking about a specific Pokémon, aka Arceus the pokemon being hatched from the egg that formed from chaos in the very same poem.
No they aren't. Go back and read what the Japanese version says.

And they all compliment it.

English version
"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
 
chikara means powet most of the time but again like all words it can refer to hax or other stuff so it depends on the context
 
DT argument, once again has been refuted. If he refuses to return, then his argument is invalid.

'Nuff said. That's how the wiki works
 
DT argument, once again has been refuted. If he refuses to return, then his argument is invalid.

'Nuff said. That's how the wiki works
Cope and seathe, that's not how this wiki works.

Your not required to respond, and your being insanely pretentious with your whole "been refuted" shtick. No, that's not for you to decide.

Votes are votes, deal with it.
 
DT argument, once again has been refuted. If he refuses to return, then his argument is invalid.

'Nuff said. That's how the wiki works
I agree with you on this debate but that’s… not how voting works here, we had this same debate in ‘Gotta revise them all Part 1
 
I do not believe your rebuttal is strong enough. Stop pretending that your always right and your arguments are infallible.
You'll agree with OP whether my argument is enough or not

The lore is CLEAR, that the god of the multiverse has the powers of all things. DT is talking about energy. And how does that invalidate the fact he has their powers and Pokémon powers and abilities are sourced from plates?

This wiki is honestly getting sickening, and I've been here only a few months.

Some verses get passed off with even less evidence.
 
Please just let me do it, your messing up the links and aren't counting up the people correctly.

Agrees: 9 Regular + 2 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod, @TheGreatMaster12, @Antvasima, @@Paul_Frank

Disagrees: 15 Regular + 1 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva, @ZetaMarishi, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfun , @Faron25 @The_real_cal_howard)

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 3 regular + 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy (fine with Possibly), @Zencha9 (Agreed with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96)

You can keep ignoring the evidence in favor of "mah energy"
 
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