Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

[Chariot190]

Yeah probably, there's bound to be some Mew events laying around with wacky moves, much like DM Jirachi or that DR Magikarp.
If you factor in other media, Mew's def whipped out some moves that weren't part of the standard learnpool, doesn't Bulbapedia have a "every move this pokemon" used section? You could check that for examples.

 

[Chariot190]

And this is becoming derailed.

The thing about Mew is, that people brought it up to say that Arceus should be able to do what Mew can do, (learn any move) and therefore should have access to all moves, but regardless, Arceus can't even do what Mew can do.

I mean, not to say I agree with them, but why wouldn't Arceus be able to do what Mew should do.
Your best bet would be, Instead of tackling it by saying Mew can't learn all moves (literally can, it's the things whole gimmick), you should be trying to prove Arceus can't do what Mew can do instead of falsely attacking what Mew itself can do.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Can Mew learn moves that can't be taught?

Lorewise, yes. Because you’re ignoring almost every Mew Pokedex entry to prove your point. Like you do have a point with the Plates. You don’t have one with Mew.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is so heavily tied into game mechanics it’s not even funny.
We know Arceus can do everything the Creation Trio can do. Factually. Same with the Lake Trio.

Palkia and Dialga can learn Power Gem. Arceus can’t learn it. The Lake Trio can all learn their signature move Mystical Power. Arceus can’t. So clearly lore is overwritten because of game balance.

 

[Sniper670]

And this is becoming derailed.

The thing about Mew is, that people brought it up to say that Arceus should be able to do what Mew can do, (learn any move) and therefore should have access to all moves, but regardless, Arceus can't even do what Mew can do.

Lore-wise, Arceus wouldn't even directly interfere with activities of humans and will rather act as a guide, as seen in PLA.

Going strictly by lore, the Powers of Pokémon are determined by Plates, so in the end, we don't need to see Arceus use 600+ moves and abilities in order to confirm this

Same as for Mew.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yeah probably, there's bound to be some Mew events laying around with wacky moves, much like DM Jirachi or that DR Magikarp.
If you factor in other media, Mew's def whipped out some moves that weren't part of the standard learnpool, doesn't Bulbapedia have a "every move this pokemon" used section? You could check that for examples.

And all those should be added to its profile. I'm fine with that. I'm raising my eyebrow, at people claiming that Mew can use Origin Pulse, when its not a move it has the ability to learn nor has shown that it can use it. Like if down, the line Origin Pulse becomes a teachable move, then put it on Mew's profile.

I mean, not to say I agree with them, but why wouldn't Arceus be able to do what Mew should do.

Because he can't. There are several TMs he can't learn.

This is so heavily tied into game mechanics it’s not even funny.
We know Arceus can do everything the Creation Trio can do. Factually. Same with the Lake Trio.

Palkia and Dialga can learn Power Gem. Arceus can’t learn it. The Lake Trio can all learn their signature move Mystical Power. Arceus can’t. So clearly lore is overwritten because of game balance.

Why should Lore supersede actual showings in the games, anime, and manga?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Lore-wise, Arceus wouldn't even directly interfere with activities of humans and will rather act as a guide, as seen in PLA.

Going strictly by lore, the Powers of Pokémon are determined by Plates, so in the end, we don't need to see Arceus use 600+ moves and abilities in order to confirm this

Same as for Mew.

And Reality-wise there are at least three occasions where Arceus got captured by humans against his will.

 

[Sniper670]

And Reality-wise there are at least three occasions where Arceus got captured by humans against his will.

There's also millions of Arceus in trainers PC's as we speak. It's no news

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There's also millions of Arceus in trainers PC's as we speak. It's no news

So you agree, the lore stating that Arceus wouldn't even directly interfere with the activity of humans isn't true?

 

[Arceus0x]

Arceus' avatar got caught which is, as stated in PLA, just a piece of him. Heck, the one time i remember anyone canonically catching Arceus is in PLA and D&P in both cases the protags beat dialga, palkia and giratina beforehand. It's irrelevant either way and nothing states it's against his will

 

[Arceus0x]

So you agree, the lore stating that Arceus wouldn't even directly interfere with the activity of humans isn't true?

It's not a MUST, it's a preference. He aids humans at times but only rarely and so they can learn to fend for themselves

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Arceus' avatar got caught which is, as stated in PLA, just a piece of him. Heck, the one time i remember anyone canonically catching Arceus is in PLA and D&P in both cases the protags beat dialga, palkia and giratina beforehand. It's irrelevant either way and nothing states it's against his will

I wasn't talking about PLA when I said the three times he was captured against his will. Or any game tbh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Arceus' avatar got caught which is, as stated in PLA, just a piece of him. Heck, the one time i remember anyone canonically catching Arceus is in PLA and D&P in both cases the protags beat dialga, palkia and giratina beforehand. It's irrelevant either way and nothing states it's against his will

I believe the third one he is referring to is Sinjoh ruins.

But the player didn't really caught there, so idk.

Edit: Seems I was mistaken, lol. But I guess then Guardian Signs? Never played it so idk.

 

[Chariot190]

And all those should be added to its profile. I'm fine with that. I'm raising my eyebrow, at people claiming that Mew can use Origin Pulse, when its not a move it has the ability to learn nor has shown that it can use it. Like if down, the line Origin Pulse becomes a teachable move, then put it on Mew's profile.

Yeah not sure I agree with you here, you have numerous upon numerous statements saying it can do the thing. It being able to learn everything shown to it in-game corroborates that, But because it doesn't have access to random signature move #4, the statements saying as such no longer count?
My dude, feats > statements, but when it's statement x 100 > not even a contradictory feat, just the absence of one.
I'm going to be taking the side of the game, not you.

Because he can't. There are several TMs he can't learn.

Then make that your argument, at least with that you have concrete proof of a failure, not "mew cant learn every move because there isnt a tutor in game to teach it wacky legendary move". Like lad, when faced with a thing that's stated verbatim to learn everything, stated it can do so because it has the genetic data of every pokemon to such a point it can even turn into them, and is shown to be able to learn every TM, HM, Tutor, TR and more. Attacking Mew is the worst thing you can do, it unironically wastes time you could be using to make an actual argument with things that aren't easily proven wrong.
"Because it is able to use every move, there are many scientists who believe that it is the ancestor of all Pokémon."
BW dex entry fyi.

And Reality-wise there are at least three occasions where Arceus got captured by humans against his will.

Ok. And? What's this matter to anything? Arceus could be held at gunpoint and forced to post on Reddit for all I care, that doesn't support or discredit anything on either end.

 

[Sniper670]

So you agree, the lore stating that Arceus wouldn't even directly interfere with the activity of humans isn't true?

Arceus chuckles in the pov of the humans who "caught it"

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It's not a MUST, it's a preference. He aids humans at times but only rarely and so they can learn to fend for themselves

He aids humans in almost every universe. It's not rarely.

If the Lore says that he rarely interferes with human activism, then the lore isn't accurate because he does, a lot.

Then make that your argument, not "mew cant learn every move because there isnt a tutor in game to teach it wacky legendary move". Like lad, when faced with a thing that's stated verbatim to learn everything, stated it can do so because it has the genetic data of every pokemon to such a point it can even turn into them, and is shown to be able to learn every TM, HM, Tutor, TR and more. Attacking Mew is the worst thing you can do, it unironically wastes time you could be using to make an actual argument with things that aren't easily proven wrong.

I didn't attack Mew. I said Mew can't learn every attack which is true, as all the attacks aren't teachable in the games. And I ended the conversation of Mew and went back to talking about Arceus. You're still talking about Mew.

Ok. And? What's this matter to anything? Arceus could be held at gunpoint and forced to post on Reddit for all I care, that doesn't support or discredit anything on either end.

And? I didn't reply that statement to you. I replied it to the user who claimed the lore said that Arceus rarely interferes with human activies when he clearly does. Another example of the lore not matching up with whats shown.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Palkia and Dialga can learn Power Gem. Arceus can’t learn it. The Lake Trio can all learn their signature move Mystical Power. Arceus can’t. So clearly lore is overwritten because of game balance.

This phenomna of Arceus not being able to learn moves isn't just for leveling up movepools. It extends to TMS. Palkia can learn Dive while Arceus can't. Both Dialga and Palkia can learn bulk-up and Arceus can't.

It seems as though the only pokemon in existence that can learn every move is Mew. Which we can then say that Arceus's doesn't have all the powers of his creation, and that some powers are independent of him.

 

[Arceus0x]

He aids humans in almost every universe. It's not rarely.

If the Lore says that he rarely interferes with human activism, then the lore isn't accurate because he does, a lot.

he doesn't fully interfere and yes, it is rare. There are like 20 things that he could've stopped that nearly destroyed the earth and he didn't. He interfered in PLA by...dropping a child there and telling him to catch every pokemon. He interfered with the heatran situation by...telling 3 kids they should deal with it and summoning some water. The one time there was a serious time when he helped was in the BDSP specials when there was no other choice but to pray to Arceus to save everyone and thus he just broke the red chains and that's that.

 

[Sniper670]

This phenomna of Arceus not being able to learn moves isn't just for leveling up movepools. It extends to TMS. Palkia can learn Dive while Arceus can't. Both Dialga and Palkia can learn bulk-up and Arceus can't.

I mean, he messed with the laws of nature with water and the reasoning was "this is Arceus power"

Can you tell me what this water move is, amongst all the moves in the series. You're free to look into Arceus own move pool


Plus, Unown can manipulate reality according to the thoughts and dreams of other.

Now tell me how many people will use Unown in combat, because game mechanics that's why

It seems as though the only pokemon in existence that can learn every move is Mew. Which we can then say that Arceus's doesn't have all the powers of his creation, and that some powers are independent of him.

It seems as though you're ignoring all the scans and evidence and just disagreeing on 0 basis

 

[Moritzva]

I like Cal's reasoning, swap my vote to "disagree" for Cal's reasoning specifically.

 

[Sniper670]

My walls of text in the mud

 

[Sniper670]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Agrees: 7 Regular + 1 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod)

Disagrees: 12 Regular + 1 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfan, @The_real_cal_howard[/USER[B]][/B]

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 1 Staff ([B][USER=2943]@Everything12[/B], Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy(fine with Possibly), @ Zencha9(Agree with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96,

 

[hajime]

First, I know Pokémon quite a decent amount. What I'm not familiar with is mostly the Pokémon threads that happened in the past and which arguments were presented in them.
Second, a great stance. As the only person that has read several of the verses I work on I declare that all their characters are Tier 0 and nobody that hasn't read them should say anything against it. Iwanaga-hime solos Pokémon. You haven't read her work, so you may not argue against that.

yes yes brattan databook info

 

[Arceus0x]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Agrees: 7 Regular + 1 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Rikimarox2, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT, @JoshSSJGod)

Disagrees: 12 Regular + 2 staff (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, @hajime, @Robot972, @Moritzva , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Pikaman, @GodlyCharmander, @Luckyfan, @The_real_cal_howard

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything), @Purgy(fine with Possibly), @ Zencha9(Agree with True Form Having it), @Vietthai96,

cal isn't really staff anymore, idk if we're allowed...are we?

 

[Sniper670]

You were once a staff?

 

[Arceus0x]

You were once a staff?

No i mean if we're allowed to add em as staff vote

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Cal is indeed a regular member now so yeah, can't count them as a staff vote.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I like Cal's reasoning, swap my vote to "disagree" for Cal's reasoning specifically.

Remember that Cal agrees with my stance against the plates as reasoning.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

he doesn't fully interfere and yes, it is rare. There are like 20 things that he could've stopped that nearly destroyed the earth and he didn't. He interfered in PLA by...dropping a child there and telling him to catch every pokemon. He interfered with the heatran situation by...telling 3 kids they should deal with it and summoning some water. The one time there was a serious time when he helped was in the BDSP specials when there was no other choice but to pray to Arceus to save everyone and thus he just broke the red chains and that's that.

The point is. While the Lore says he rarely interferes with human activity, his showings say otherwise. Almost every media in pokemon has at least one story of Arceus interacting with humans. The PLA series is literally an entire game that's about Arceus interfering with humans.

The Lore doesn't match-up with the actual showings and should not supersede them.

I mean, he messed with the laws of nature with water and the reasoning was "this is Arceus power"

Can you tell me what this water move is, amongst all the moves in the series. You're free to look into Arceus own move pool


Plus, Unown can manipulate reality according to the thoughts and dreams of other.

Now tell me how many people will use Unown in combat, because game mechanics that's why

It seems as though you're ignoring all the scans and evidence and just disagreeing on 0 basis

Your logic makes no sense to me. Just because Arceus can do A doesn't mean he can do B when A and B are two different things. Why is that Arceus being able to do that water manipulation feat in the movie supposed to cancel out the fact that he cannot learn TMs and that there are moves his "aspects" can learn that he can't?

 

[Arceus0x]

The point is. While the Lore says he rarely interferes with human activity, his showings say otherwise. Almost every media in pokemon has at least one story of Arceus interacting with humans. The PLA series is literally an entire game that's about Arceus interfering with humans.

The Lore doesn't match-up with the actual showings and should not supersede them

This doesn't mean he doesn't rarely interfere. If i eat a cake once every 3 months i eat it rarely. Arceus has interfered in one way or another but not often. He doesn't just do it every friday or sth. He didn't help when Eternatus was busting up UK or when Yveltal murdered everyone in France and tries to every thousand years. He has interfered when thing that threatened an entire universe or multiverse appeared such as the space busting Heatran, Palkia and Dialga 1v1ing each other and nearly destroying 3 universes in the process and there being nothing that can stop them, and ever so slightly in PLA. There are a few more cases but they were all things that only someone as powerful as Arceus could stop and never in trivial matters such as, you know, a giant comet flying at Earth or Groudon and Kyogre almost eliminating Kalos.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This doesn't mean he doesn't rarely interfere. If i eat a cake once every 3 months i eat it rarely. Arceus has interfered in one way or another but not often. He doesn't just do it every friday or sth. He didn't help when Eternatus was busting up UK or when Yveltal murdered everyone in France and tries to every thousand years. He has interfered when thing that threatened an entire universe or multiverse appeared such as the space busting Heatran, Palkia and Dialga 1v1ing each other and nearly destroying 3 universes in the process and there being nothing that can stop them, and ever so slightly in PLA. There are a few more cases but they were all things that only someone as powerful as Arceus could stop and never in trivial matters such as, you know, a giant comet flying at Earth or Groudon and Kyogre almost eliminating Kalos.

If every pokemon game is a parallel universe, Arceus has interfered with humans millions of times across the multiverse.

Anyways, the point is, the lore doesn't match up with the actual showings 1:1, and we shouldn't ignore showings for the sake preserving the image of the lore.

 

[Zencha9]

What is even "lore" if it's the actual story, and the "showings" are stuff that’s limited by game mechanics and im pretty sure we just ignore it the game mechanics elements

 

[Deceived3596]

Iwanaga-hime solos Pokémon

I mean.... i can think of TWO reasons why she would solo Pokemon if you know what i mean .

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

What is even "lore" if it's the actual story, and the "showings" are stuff that’s limited by game mechanics and im pretty sure we just ignore it the game mechanics elements

The same developers who wrote the lore in the game, are the same ones who programmed Arceus to not be able to learn certain TMS that even the creation trio can learn.

And it's not for the sake of balancing, because Mew exists and can learn all the moves in the game. There was a deliberate choice to make Mew learn all the moves and Arceus incapable of doing so. Perhaps to have it so that only Mew has this gimmick.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And it's not for the sake of balancing, because Mew exists and can learn all the moves in the game.

Mew doesn't have base 120 in every stat, my guy. That particular point simply we cannot claim one or the other. It's unknown what exactly is GF's concept of game balance (mega ray exists).

 

[TheGreatMaster12]

I disagree with Arceus having every ability and move, so count my vote in agreeing with the thread.

 

[Zencha9]

The same developers who wrote the lore in the game, are the same ones who programmed Arceus to not be able to learn certain TMS that even the creation trio can learn.

And it's not for the sake of balancing, because Mew exists and can learn all the moves in the game. There was a deliberate choice to make Mew learn all the moves and Arceus incapable of doing so. Perhaps to have it so that only Mew has this gimmick.

From what i heard even mew despite being able to learn every move in the story cannot truly learn every move in game so my point stands

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

From what i heard even mew despite being able to learn every move in the story cannot truly learn every move in game so my point stands

I find this argument that because the gameplay, anime, or manga doesn't portray Pokémon to their most powerful interpretation based off lore statements, these showings should be ignored, to be quite incredulous.

What other franchise gets this special treatment?

Like what other verse has this sequence of events happen:

A. Lore states x is limitless.
B. Showings show that x has limits.
C. Showings should be ignored and X should be written as limitless on the profiles.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Heavily disagree with the OP for reasons above. Also Mew not learning all of the moves is absolutely game mechanics due to the fact that if it wanted to be properly portrayed in the game, it'd have to learn a bunch of moves per level and literally no one wants to sit through that.

 

[Zencha9]

I find this argument that because the gameplay, anime, or manga doesn't portray Pokémon to their most powerful interpretation based off lore statements, these showings should be ignored, to be quite incredulous.

What other franchise gets this special treatment?

Again i need you to define what lore is since you seem to disconnect the two, and it's not a high end interpretation if there's a statement that said "Sasuke could use all the abilities of the Rinnegan" then he should have the powers of the Rinnegan and doesn't need to demonstrate it