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PoC Hax Revision 2 of 2

RedReaper616

RedReaper616

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Another straight forward thread that needs pretty much minimal debate, (if any), this thread seeks to give Vergil's DMC3 Key an Optional Equipment tab covering his PoC weapons, to give Lady an Optional Equipment tab for her PoC weapons, and to give Dante's PoC key one too, or to just extend his ability list.

This is because these abilities come from Devil Arms, and these Devil Arms are actual things you can use in gameplay, with their own lore entries and status effects in game, but technically are not "canon" additions to a character's arsenal, as they exist solely in gameplay. (Hence why they're not attempted to be added as a normal part of the character's toolkit.)

The abilities they'd grant Dante, Vergil, and Lady are all seen in a complete Sandbox here. Their respective Weapons Galleries are also there, but I'm posting them here too.

Dante

Vergil

Lady
 
Pretty sure lady needs a poc key since she is in the story helping the hunters but dunno her scaling but that aside this is fine.

Also when are you adding Pluto's fate hax?
 
Seems redundant to add most of the abilities for Dante at least, since apart from blood absorption and maybe energy absorption he already has those abilities. I'll check the rest in a minute.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Seems redundant to add most of the abilities for Dante at least, since apart from blood absorption and maybe energy absorption he already has those abilities. I'll check the rest in a minute.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that was a main thing I found out as I was going through the list. It's just 102 different extra ways for him to do what he already can do. I just think it's worth recording those options.
 
RedReaper said:
This is because these abilities come from Devil Arms, and these Devil Arms are actual things you can use in gameplay, with their own lore entries and status effects in game, but technically are not "canon" additions to a character's arsenal, as they exist solely in gameplay. (Hence why they're not attempted to be added as a normal part of the character's toolkit.)
Click to expand...
Why?
They are pretty much just extra weapons thes characters acquire/buy. Much like any other DMC game.
I don't why they are not "canon" and gameplay only.

Other than that I agree.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Why?
They are pretty much just extra weapons thes characters acquire/buy. Much like any other DMC game.
I don't why they are not "canon" and gameplay only.

Other than that I agree.
Click to expand...
Yes, but also no.

For example, Vergil's sections are him fighting through Hell right before the DMC3 Cutscene and getting to that room to fall to Mundus in.

That's cool, but I don't think Vergil ever used a "Vajra Glove" and "Sunset Katana" in that fight. In fact, given we see the battle's aftermath, pretty sure he ONLY used Yamato. The weapon skins do have their own lore, functions, and abilities, but they're still gameplay features first and actual plot relevance second. (This is ESPECIALLY true considering they sit on a gacha pool with their own rotation, which means the game itself will almost never draw attention to it, despite it being apart of the system, because of it being a 100% gameplay element up to RNG and the player's choice, not any actual tangible existence within the plot.)
 
Reaper is right, we have to remember that in all the cutscenes we see their signature weapons even if you are using some random gacha weapon in gameplay
 
Vergil is the same as Dante. Apart from one or two abilities, all the abilities listed are things he can already do. Lady's weapons seem like worthwhile additions though.

Regarding canonicity, with these characters being able to summon their weapons freely, it's hard to just point at a cutscene where the weapons make no appearance and decide that they must not exist. Many games feature weapons which only appear in gameplay (Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Ninja Gaiden, Nier) and yet those weapons are still counted.

Regarding Pluto's fate hax, that's also an extra layer of resistance to fate hax, because low level demons resist the fate hax of the Beastheads, but apparently not the fate hax of Pluto.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Regarding canonicity, with these characters being able to summon their weapons freely, it's hard to just point at a cutscene where the weapons make no appearance and decide that they must not exist. Many games feature weapons which only appear in gameplay (Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Ninja Gaiden, Nier) and yet those weapons are still counted.
Click to expand...
This exactly....

Secondary weapons aside from Yamato, Reb and E&I are rarely if at all shown in cutscenes...
Their only appearance when you get them for first time.
So by that logic it's non canon as well?

Same for the timeline arguement. Like DMC3 came in 2005, PoC is post 2020....
How the **** are those weapons supposed to appear in past titles? And what relevance do they have to cutscenes? It's not pertinent to show them in cutscenes anyways during major story beats...
And if we all are being so anal about it... We actually do have cutscenes of weapons when Dante/Vergil get them... He pulls them out of a void and showcases some flashy moves... Just like the Norse GoW games. So I guess that counts now?
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Vergil is the same as Dante. Apart from one or two abilities, all the abilities listed are things he can already do. Lady's weapons seem like worthwhile additions though.

Regarding canonicity, with these characters being able to summon their weapons freely, it's hard to just point at a cutscene where the weapons make no appearance and decide that they must not exist. Many games feature weapons which only appear in gameplay (Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, Ninja Gaiden, Nier) and yet those weapons are still counted.

Regarding Pluto's fate hax, that's also an extra layer of resistance to fate hax, because low level demons resist the fate hax of the Beastheads, but apparently not the fate hax of Pluto.
Click to expand...
This is true in theory, but not in practice.

Bayonetta, MGR, Nier, etc. are usually feature filled triple A games that have a limited scope, and often, at least once, draw attention to the gaining of more weapons naturally in game progression unrelated to a micro-transaction system or any sort of randomization, or and generally would be accepted to actually exist within the story even if not drawn attention to.

Conversely, this is a mobile Gacha game. To put this into perspective, Dante using something like a Soul Eating Nevan alt is COMPLETELY dependent on RNG. It’s not a commonly accepted secondary feature of the plot or game—The plot can never draw attention to the RNG. And further, the player can choose their loadout before the game starts, with any set of combinations between different weapon skins and effects alongside each other as if it’s a modern COD game.

Similarly, this story-Gacha disconnect exists in many popular games, such as Dragon Ball Legends. You Summon for characters, those characters fight, but regardless of who and what you use, the only person who canonically fights those battles is SHALLOT.

Identically, while you summon for weapons, and those weapons are used in the fight, the only weapon that is canonically used in battle is REBELLION and E&I.
 
Lightning_XXI said:
Wait a minute

I know the game's main story is canon, but what makes Vergil's presence/gameplay on it canon ?
Click to expand...
What Sevil and Tony said. Vergil has a mini-story section dedicated to him fighting Demons right AFTER he falls into the DW in DMC3 but right BEFORE the DMC3 Secret Cutscene where he fights Mundus, where he basically runs a gauntlet of foes that weakens his already Nerfed powers from the events of DMC3 FURTHER before he actually faces the Demon King.
 
RedReaper said:
Conversely, this is a mobile Gacha game. To put this into perspective, Dante using something like a Soul Eating Nevan alt is COMPLETELY dependent on RNG. It’s not a commonly accepted secondary feature of the plot or game—The plot can never draw attention to the RNG. And further, the player can choose their loadout before the game starts, with any set of combinations between different weapon skins and effects alongside each other as if it’s a modern COD game.
Click to expand...
There have been similar weapons in DMC.
Player obtaining Sawwed off, Artemis and Spiral is completely optional, simply hinging on whether or not player wants to explore and obtain it. But we don't put it as optional.
DMC5 has several weapons locked behind paywalls like Gerbera GP01 and Red Cavelier, but it was never an issue for us.

RNG is irrelevant when we are concerned with indexing full accomplishments of player, i.e when everything is obtained. Player can assemble his entire inventory provided enough time and efforts, which is what ultimately matters.
And weapon selection should not be an issue, the only reason you cannot carry your entire arsenal is control scheme limitations of mobile. DMC1 to 3 had similar issues related RAM limitations of PS2. But that was never a problem either.
RedReaper said:
Similarly, this story-Gacha disconnect exists in many popular games, such as Dragon Ball Legends. You Summon for characters, those characters fight, but regardless of who and what you use, the only person who canonically fights those battles is SHALLOT.
Click to expand...
False equivalence, sentient story characters are not same as some weapons. So the logic doesn't apply.
If tomorrow Alastor is added to Dante's arsenal then you'd have a point about excluding that singular weapon because he does not get that untill DMC1. But you cannot apply this logic blindly all accross the board.

While we are at RNG, some games like Genshin/Honkai/FGO etc have entire characters locked behind probability and paywalls. We still index in simple manner.
Some weapons being operated by RNG in context of DMC about how Devil Arms are made and stored etc should make no problem for it to be standard equipment whatsoever.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
There have been similar weapons in DMC.
Player obtaining Sawwed off, Artemis and Spiral is completely optional
Click to expand...
This is the case in many verses. Many of the weapons in Bayonetta are obtained by collecting hidden things in various levels and then getting the weapons as a reward for that. And attaining weapons in Nier and its predecessor Drakengard (sadly most people can't see the rest of the verse past 2B's butt) is generally a matter of completing puzzles or finding things in maps, or even buying them from in-game stores. Those weapons are still counted. Also keep in mind the Nier and Drakengard characters don't have hammer space, so them having that many weapons is more suspect than DMC characters doing the same. Even Lady has displayed an ability to pull her Kalina Ann out of thin air.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
There have been similar weapons in DMC.
Player obtaining Sawwed off, Artemis and Spiral is completely optional, simply hinging on whether or not player wants to explore and obtain it. But we don't put it as optional.
DMC5 has several weapons locked behind paywalls like Gerbera GP01 and Red Cavelier, but it was never an issue for us.

RNG is irrelevant when we are concerned with indexing full accomplishments of player, i.e when everything is obtained. Player can assemble his entire inventory provided enough time and efforts, which is what ultimately matters.
And weapon selection should not be an issue, the only reason you cannot carry your entire arsenal is control scheme limitations of mobile. DMC1 to 3 had similar issues related RAM limitations of PS2. But that was never a problem either.

False equivalence, sentient story characters are not same as some weapons. So the logic doesn't apply.
If tomorrow Alastor is added to Dante's arsenal then you'd have a point about excluding that singular weapon because he does not get that untill DMC1. But you cannot apply this logic blindly all accross the board.

While we are at RNG, some games like Genshin/Honkai/FGO etc have entire characters locked behind probability and paywalls. We still index in simple manner.
Some weapons being operated by RNG in context of DMC about how Devil Arms are made and stored etc should make no problem for it to be standard equipment whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Even if we were to discount the RNG logic and clear Player Choice-Story disconnect (as when you choose your skins and the like, it’s not a secondary weapon, Rebellion itself has been changed—There is no swapping), it would still be optional equipment, as Dante’s ability to access them is quite literally still optional in comparison to his main Arsenal/natural progression in the game.

Also, at best we’re arguing semantics tbh.

Anyway, does the thread have any more major objections against the proposals?
 
RedReaper said:
Even if we were to discount the RNG logic and clear Player Choice-Story disconnect (as when you choose your skins and the like, it’s not a secondary weapon, Rebellion itself has been changed—There is no swapping), it would still be optional equipment, as Dante’s ability to access them is quite literally still optional in comparison to his main Arsenal/natural progression in the game.

Also, at best we’re arguing semantics tbh.

Anyway, does the thread have any more major objections against the proposals?
Click to expand...
The tower doesn't belongs to Sparda and pluto has fate hax >:v
 
RedReaper said:
Even if we were to discount the RNG logic and clear Player Choice-Story disconnect (as when you choose your skins and the like, it’s not a secondary weapon, Rebellion itself has been changed—There is no swapping), it would still be optional equipment, as Dante’s ability to access them is quite literally still optional in comparison to his main Arsenal/natural progression in the game.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate? I think I know what you mean...but I just want to make sure.

RedReaper said:
Also, at best we’re arguing semantics tbh.
Click to expand...
I am nitpicky...but it's good discussion.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Can you elaborate? I think I know what you mean...but I just want to make sure.


I am nitpicky...but it's good discussion.
Click to expand...
When you choose your weapons in the actual menu, by selecting your weapons and skins, the actual weapon itself is no longer used by Dante. The "skin" takes your Rebellion slot. So, for example, when Vergil uses the "Sunset Katana," that IS his Yamato. Yamato in itself is not used by Vergil, because he's using the Sunset Katana. The reason more than one isn't selectable isn't game limitations, it's literally that it's the gameplay mechanic to have one specific Rebellion Alt Skin with one specific E&I skin with one specific Nevan skin and one specific Agni and Rudra skin, all of which can be chosen to be different. Also, as far as I know, picking entirely different CHARACTER costumes, like the DMC2 Costume, is ALSO not represented in cutscenes.
 
That's because the weapon system in PoC isn't traditional individual weapon based, but rather class based.

There's different types of weapon classes, and each type is represented by most famous/story relevant weapon.

For Dante,
Melee:- 1) Longswords, 2) Dual Scmittars, 3)Guitar/scythe, 4)Battle Axe, 5)Gauntlets etc
Ranged:- Dual Pistols, Sawwed Off, Rocket Launcher etc.

Same concept for Vergil and Lady.

The ""skins"" you talk about are various multitudes of weapons inside each class. That's why they share same core moveset in each class but each skin has different slight moveset variation and extra new attacks.

Rebellion, E&I, Cayote A etc are just default representative of each class, since they are also active part of lore and cutscenes. The rest of the weapons in said classes aren't skins but different seperate individual weapons, but since they have no direct relevance to main story is the reason they have no need to appear in cutscenes, just like any other secondary weapon in OG games.

So ultimately hamerpspace/dimensional space of each character is perfectly capable of handling their entire respective armoury of weapons, because we don't need to pretend it is some skin that needs to plastered on Reb or E&I etc.
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
To Dante, Vergil and Lady? And abilities added to Lady at least as well? And considered notable equipment instead of non-canon?
Click to expand...
Added to all, as optional equipment-Because as I said before, even if we were to assume they are canon additions, their manner of being selected is based on the parameters of optional equipment.
 
So in the same category as most of the weapons in verses like DMC and GOW then.

Maybe it's best to wait until the others comment. I'm not sure we should close the thread on that discussion before the other people discussing the weapons weigh in.
 
RedReaper said:
even if we were to assume they are canon additions
Click to expand...
Generally, if something is in the game, it's canon to that game. If the weapons being found by doing extra things and not appearing in cutscenes means that it's an assumption to regard them as canon, then by that reasoning all of Bayonetta's extra weapons and most weapons in shooter games are only assumed canon.
RedReaper said:
their manner of being selected is based on the parameters of optional equipment.
Click to expand...
Isn't that the case with just about any weapon load out? Non-canon Bayonetta and Resident Evil weapons when?

We should wait for everyone else. Closing this so soon seems a bit like a way to end the discussion prematurely to me.
 
I think we should just go with weapon class system as I have explained.
It's not even something PoC did, but has existed since first game.
DMC1 had Force Edge, Alastor and DSS.
DMC2 has Rebellion, Merciless and Vendetta.
DMC5 had Rebellion, DSS and DSD.

PoC just amps it to 100...for all types of weapons.
 
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