Po vs Riolu - Kung Fu Animals

[GyroNutz]

I wanted to do Pancham vs Po, but then I realised that they wouldn't share any tiers. And Pancham doesn't even have a profile... go figure.

This is KFP2 Po vs Riolu, and speed is not equalized.

Po's AP is >> 0.66 tons with higher durability, Riolu's AP is 0.62 tons (it would be 0.761 tons if my calc ever got noticed...)
Po's speed is >> Mach 0.91 with Mach 2.2 combat speed, Riolu's speed is baseline Transonic (Mach 0.9)

Who wins and why?

Riolu: 1

Po: 2

Inconclusive:

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Following

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

To start off discussion, I'd say here that Po has initial AP, Durability and Speed advantages with a decent skill advantage too. On the other hand, Riolu has a decent versatility advantage including stat amps that can increase its attack, speed and durability.

 

[Imaginym]

So Po has an about 2.44~ times Combat Speed Advantage & probably a Skill Advantage, too?

I guess Riolu is Immune to Flinching, so that's something?
It has good Stamina, & its Status moves are faster than normal.... Which Speed being Unequalized kinda invalidates when Po has 2.44 times Combat Speed?

As for those status moves, among its level-up moves are Endure, Screech, Work Up, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, & Copycat.
With Egg Moves, there's Agility, Detect, Follow Me, Howl, & Mind Reader, but Egg Moves are less likely.

So Riolu has a bunch of ways to do the same thing. Agility might be nice, but being an Egg Move, it's very unlikely.
Riolu's Attacks include....

Quick Attack, Feint, Metal Claw, Counter, Rock Smash, Force Palm, Final Gambit & Reversal.
Egg Moves add Bite, Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch, Circle Throw, Cross Chop, Crunch, High Jump Kick, Low Kick, Meteor Mash & Vacuum Wave.

Meanwhile, Po is probably exploiting his combat speed & superior skill to dodge Riolu's attacks, since Riolu doesn't really have anything omni-directional, & while Riolu has several priority attacks, the most likely ones are weak, the likely ones aren't much stronger, & Po is still probably faster than them.
(Detect, which is Precognition being sped up by Prankster is amusing, though, but being a purely defensive move, & an Egg Move at that, is kinda bad.)

Also, some of Riolu's moves are downright suicidal: Follow Me just tells the opponent to attack the user. In other words, it's Riolu telling Po: "HEY! Punch ME in the face!" Thankfully, this isn't a multi-battle, so it's unlikely. (Plus, Egg Move.)

Another suicidal option is Final Gambit:

• Final Gambit: Lucario sacrifices itself to do damage based on how well off it was prior to the execution of the move. Due to the mechanics of it, it is pretty much useless for a vs match, though it technically ignores durability.

But yeah. I doubt Po's Stamina will get worn down enough that he starts missing, & Iron Defense & Agility & Detect & Mind Reader are all Egg Moves.
Sure, it has boosting moves among its Level-Up moves, too, but they're all just offensive.
Endure & Copycat are Riolu's best defensive Level-Up options. Reversal MIGHT be useful later on?
& Riolu mostly uses its Aura to detect emotions, & for stealth while communicating.

So it seems like in Speed Unequalized, Po just exploits his higher speed & skill & dodges indefinitely, Prankster or not.

Maybe this would be better with Speed Equalized, if you'll forgive my asking?

 

[Arceus0x]

HOL UP... The dude is transonic? ONLY TRANSONIC? Wut?

Yeah boys imma need you here really freaking quick

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-speed-revision-screw-it-might-as-well.126527/

 

[GyroNutz]

So it seems like in Speed Unequalized, Po just exploits his higher speed & skill & dodges indefinitely, Prankster or not.

Maybe this would be better with Speed Equalized, if you'll forgive my asking?

Riolu has Agility to make up the speed gap. And I really don't like equalizing speed when there's no blitz-worthy gap.

 

[Imaginym]

Riolu has Agility to make up the speed gap. And I really don't like equalizing speed when there's no blitz-worthy gap.

Yes, but I kinda already addressed that; Agility is an Egg Move, & thus, may not be as likely to use that.
(Unless there's stuff showing Agility is more in-character.)

 

[GyroNutz]

Yes, but I kinda already addressed that; Agility is an Egg Move, & thus, may not be as likely to use that.
(Unless there's stuff showing Agility is more in-character.)

There isn't afaik.

Also bump

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Imaginym]

I guess for the time being, I'll vote Po for 2.44x time higher combat speed, likely better Skill, & I'm not sure Riolu would use the necessary set-up moves readily. (Many are Egg Moves, & it might just go for attacking. Maybe? Then again, maybe Prankster means it would set-up?)

 

[GyroNutz]

Vote counted. Riolu would likely prefer to attack rather than set up, but if it does decide to set up it can do so far more efficiently with Prankster.

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Dragon Warrior FRA

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Riolu via force palm and much better hax

 

[GyroNutz]

Riolu doesn't have any combat applicable hax

 

[Imaginym]

Riolu doesn't have any combat applicable hax

....How do you mean?

I mean, it has a ton of moves, most of which with "Priority" due to Prankster, but the most potent of them are Statistics Manipulation. (It gets Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Agility & Nasty Plot, as well as Screech, & other Statistics Manipulation moves, but it's hardly certain that it'll use them, especially those that are Egg Moves.)
The most haxy it has seem to be Detect, Mind Reader & Copycat. Maybe Final Gambit or Reversal are relevant, if it could hit them?

Not that I entirely disagree that it's lacking in "hax".

 

[GyroNutz]

....How do you mean?

I mean, it has a ton of moves, most of which with "Priority" due to Prankster, but the most potent of them are Statistics Manipulation. (It gets Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Agility & Nasty Plot, as well as Screech, & other Statistics Manipulation moves, but it's hardly certain that it'll use them, especially those that are Egg Moves.)
The most haxy it has seem to be Detect, Mind Reader & Copycat. Maybe Final Gambit or Reversal are relevant, if it could hit them?

Not that I entirely disagree that it's lacking in "hax".

Statistics Amplification and Damage Boost aren't hax.

 

[Imaginym]

Statistics Amplification and Damage Boost aren't hax.

Ah. My mistake. Other than Final Gambit (Which, IIRC, using would cause Riolu to faint anyway.) which negates/ignores Durability, Riolu lacks Hax.

 

[GyroNutz]

Ah. My mistake. Other than Final Gambit (Which, IIRC, using would cause Riolu to faint anyway.) which negates/ignores Durability, Riolu lacks Hax.

Oh yeah I suppose Final Gambit would count, though it would result in an incon at best

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Reversal one shots. Force Palm paralyzes him, blaze kick can maybe incinerate. Instinctive reaction can be used to counter attacks, along with analytical prediction (Detect)

 

[GyroNutz]

Reversal one shots. Force Palm paralyzes him, blaze kick can maybe incinerate. Instinctive reaction can be used to counter attacks, along with analytical prediction (Detect)

Po actually resists paralysis via physical strikes, as shown in his fight against Tai Lung. Reversal also doesn't necessarily one shot, it just gets stronger if Riolu has taken more damage, but not necessarily to the point where it one shots.

Also none of this is hax btw.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Po actually resists paralysis via physical strikes, as shown in his fight against Tai Lung. Reversal also doesn't necessarily one shot, it just gets stronger if Riolu has taken more damage, but not necessarily to the point where it one shots.

Also none of this is hax btw.

Hax is just ability, and why does it matter if its not called hax here?

The paralysis is based on electricity from force palm, as shown in the anime fight with Maylene

 

[GyroNutz]

Hax is just ability, and why does it matter if its not called hax here?

Hax specifically refers to durability-negating abilities. As Imaginym pointed out, Riolu has Final Gambit, but that will result in an incon at best.

The paralysis is based on electricity from force palm, as shown in the anime fight with Maylene

It's not actually electricity, it's a blue shockwave.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Hax specifically refers to durability-negating abilities. As FinePoint pointed out finely, Riolu has Final Gambit, but that will result in an incon at best.


It's not actually electricity, it's a blue shockwave.

Did you watch the episode I talked about?

 

[Imaginym]

Hax specifically refers to durability-negating abilities. As FinePoint pointed out finely, Riolu has Final Gambit, but that will result in an incon at best.

Perhaps you're posting on a bit of a time crunch, but not only am I not FinePoint, but that user has not participated in this thread.

Po actually resists paralysis via physical strikes, as shown in his fight against Tai Lung. Reversal also doesn't necessarily one shot, it just gets stronger if Riolu has taken more damage, but not necessarily to the point where it one shots.

What is your basis for your confidence it doesn't one shot? I'd assume an anime episode or something, since by game mechanics, Reversal can be a little absurd.

HP%	Power
HP ≥ 68.75%	20
35.42% ≤ HP < 68.75%	40
20.83% ≤ HP < 35.42%	80
10.42% ≤ HP < 20.83%	100
4.17% ≤ HP < 10.42%	150
HP < 4.17%	200

Chart from Bulbapedia.
TL;DR - In gameplay, at a little below 69% or higher HP, it's 20 Base Power, but at a little below 4.20% or lower, it's 200 Base Power.
Obviously, Game Mechanics are not always a reliable basis, as other media may contradict them, & their values may be skewed more towards game balance than accurately representing the fiction.
So I can understand you being opposed to such a metric for measuring its power, even if it didn't mean Reversal could get to 7.5x or even 10x power.

Still, if there are alternative means of gauging its strength you've found -Ex: Did you see an anime episode with it used?- I'd love to know about them.

 

[GyroNutz]

Perhaps you're posting on a bit of a time crunch, but not only am I not FinePoint, but that user has not participated in this thread.

I mixed up this and another thread. My bad.

What is your basis for your confidence it doesn't one shot? I'd assume an anime episode or something, since by game mechanics, Reversal can be a little absurd.

The burden of proof is on your side - why would Reversal be enough to one-shot an opponent in this scenario?

Did you watch the episode I talked about?

I've seen it before, yes. Force Palm is consistently either treated as a palm strike that causes a blue shockwave, or a simple palm strike with no additional effect at all.

 

[Imaginym]

I mixed up this and another thread. My bad.

No worries. : )

The burden of proof is on your side - why would Reversal be enough to one-shot an opponent in this scenario?

The "main" games suggest that, at low health, it is roughly 10 times stronger than it usually is, compared to full health. Is that not proof?

I've seen it before, yes. Force Palm is consistently either treated as a palm strike that causes a blue shockwave, or a simple palm strike with no additional effect at all.

We don't know what the conditions are for it to paralyze, other than making it contact, do we? Does it require a special motion, muscle movement, type of aura control or something to inflict paralysis?
Without knowing more the factors that control how likely it is to inflict paralysis, I would presume we defer to the games, where it's a 30% chance of inflicting Paralysis.

Against a foe who outspeeds you (Assuming no Agility & that Prankster is insufficient.) & probably outskills, & even if it didn't, I'd say that vouching on a 30% chance of what you need is not a winning strategy, probabilistically speaking.
Paralysis also doesn't close the default speed gap; Newer games changed the speed drop it inflicts to only halve the victim's speed instead of quartering it, so Po, while he would be outsped in movement, would still be faster in combat, "full paralysis" one quarter of the time aside.

 

[GyroNutz]

The "main" games suggest that, at low health, it is roughly 10 times stronger than it usually is, compared to full health. Is that not proof?

Nah, that just means that Reversal starts out as really weak. Also game mechanics, if you want to refer to the anime, I think Ash's Lucario uses Reversal.

We don't know what the conditions are for it to paralyze, other than making it contact, do we? Does it require a special motion, muscle movement, type of aura control or something to inflict paralysis?

I don't think it's specified to that level, though it seems very much like Tai Lung's paralysis, also due to a physical strike, which Po resists.

 

[frissen]

I don't think it's specified to that level, though it seems very much like Tai Lung's paralysis, also due to a physical strike, which Po resists.

As far as I can tell, Tai Lung's paralysis is based on a pressure point strike. Lucario's, however, is due to a shockwave created by the user. The description in-game (as of gen 6 and above) is:

The target is attacked with a shock wave. This may also leave the target with paralysis.

 

[Arceus0x]

yeah force palm is basically just the usage of fighting-type energy in a way that lets the user expel it in a palm strike

 

[GyroNutz]

As far as I can tell, Tai Lung's paralysis is based on a pressure point strike. Lucario's, however, is due to a shockwave created by the user. The description in-game (as of gen 6 and above) is:

Yes, that's how it's sometimes treated in the anime as well. But a shockwave on its own doesn't cause paralysis - it'd need to affect nerves and whatnot.

 

[frissen]

But a shockwave on its own doesn't cause paralysis - it'd need to affect nerves and whatnot.

Based on what I can tell from the kung-fu panda profiles, Po resisted getting punched in the gut, which is a pressure point. Although shockwaves also affect your nervous system, they do so by hitting every part at once, including your brain. I don't think Po's resistance feat is good enough here. Po's profile even specifically states resistance to pressure point techniques, not paralysis via shockwaves or paralysis in general.

 

[GyroNutz]

Based on what I can tell from the kung-fu panda profiles, Po resisted getting punched in the gut, which is a pressure point. Although shockwaves also affect your nervous system, they do so by hitting every part at once, including your brain. I don't think Po's resistance feat is good enough here. Po's profile even specifically states resistance to pressure point techniques, not paralysis via shockwaves or paralysis in general.

That's not quite what Tai Lung's nerve attack technique does. It basically blocks the target's chi, paralyzing them entirely unless undone, like Shifu did to the Furious Five. And I think you're overestimating these shockwaves - they haven't shown to affect one's entire nervous system simultaneously. If they were truly that effective then they'd paralyze opponents consistently. Also remember that paralysis in Pokemon isn't as debilitating as regular paralysis, even if this was to somehow overcome Po's resistance.

 

[frissen]

That's not quite what Tai Lung's nerve attack technique does. It basically blocks the target's chi, paralyzing them entirely unless undone, like Shifu did to the Furious Five.

That means there's even less basis for thinking it would protect from shockwaves. Resisting chi manipulation is a very different feat.

And I think you're overestimating these shockwaves - they haven't shown to affect one's entire nervous system simultaneously

I don't mean they'd affect the entire nervous system, I mean they would interact with and have a chance of paralyzing each part of the nervous system. Sorry if that was unclear.

Also remember that paralysis in Pokemon isn't as debilitating as regular paralysis, even if this was to somehow overcome Po's resistance.

Valid point, I concede there.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I mixed up this and another thread. My bad.


The burden of proof is on your side - why would Reversal be enough to one-shot an opponent in this scenario?


I've seen it before, yes. Force Palm is consistently either treated as a palm strike that causes a blue shockwave, or a simple palm strike with no additional effect at all.

Wrong, it was electric paralysis. Po has no answer to Detect helping Riolu avoid an attack and getting more than 2x stronger with swords dance

 

[GyroNutz]

That means there's even less basis for thinking it would protect from shockwaves. Resisting chi manipulation is a very different feat.

It's not chi manipulation though. Tai Lung doesn't use chi in his attack, but the effect of his attack is a full body paralysis.

Wrong, it was electric paralysis. Po has no answer to Detect helping Riolu avoid an attack and getting more than 2x stronger with swords dance

It's not. Otherwise both of those moves are valid things that Riolu can do, just remember that Riolu can't use Detect consecutively.