Plato's Theory of Forms in Hoyoverse

[CallMeWiertz]

Thanks @Delta333 for supporting this post

1. Instances where Plato's Theory of Forms is directly mentioned
- This fact may make you suprised, but it was mentioned firstly in Genshin Impact (Before Sun and Moon)

"The Parable of the Sun"
In a dark cavern, there lived a group of people who had never seen the light. Among them was a sage who had once seen the sun, and he told the gathered folk about what life under the sun was like, and about the great might of the sun. Seeing that they did not comprehend, he lit a torch — and thus did people come to worship the flame, believing it to be the sun. They even got used to a life of darkness and fire.
When the sage died, someone would monopolize the flame. Using it, they would cast a long shadow over the land.

- It was stated again in Chapter 31EX: Project Stigma by Mobius and Will of Stigma

???: Heh.

???: Anyhow, we’re living in an underground cave. Oh, I’m not talking about this vault!

???: We’re merely primitives chained in a cave and facing a blank wall with a fire behind us.

???: Occasionally, shadows are projected on the wall… those shadows are the world to us.

???: This is okay for most primitives. They put their heart and soul into them, worshiping and extolling their made up stories.

???: Suppose at long last, a primitive broke free from the chains and went straight outside the cave. It goes without saying that the outside world is unbounded and spectacular.

???: The question is, do you think this primitive would stay outside or go back to save the others?

Kevin: …They don’t necessarily need saving. There are things that the primitive must do.

???: Oh? That’s an interesting answer. But Kevin, don’t tell me you’ve…

???: …Taken yourself as that fire in the cave?

Will of Stigmata: Stigmata record their knowledge and your history. If we apply that allegory to our civilisation…

Will of Stigmata: I fear that humans are the shadows on the wall, and Stigmata are all things true outside the cave.

Will of Stigmata: Humans are prone to errors and depravity. They can create beauty, but they often destroy it. It’s hard to deny that these are the reasons they’re dominated by failure.

2. More description about Idealism in Hoyoverse
- Although it was firstly mentioned in Genshin Impact, the hints about it was firstly mentioned in Chapter 15 and 17 of Honkai Impact 3rd. Imaginary Tree, is described as ultimate truth and the origin of truth

The terra incognita where laws governing the universe and the ultimate truth of life came into being…

…The Imaginary Tree. - Chapter 15 Honkai Impact 3rd

Otto: Correct! The Key is not just an observation tool. It replicates the Void Queen’s powers to create a route to the Tree.

Otto: The instant of eternity, the start of the end, the origin of laws and truth… that is where I want to be. - Chapter 17 Honkai Impact 3rd

Otto: It is the Imaginary authority’s original form. The incarnation of truth in this world.

• Besides, Aeons that human sense is also described as "projections from higher dimension"
• Herrscher is also described as the projections from Coccon of Finality and it is eternity. Kiana, who is equal to Cocoon is also "transcending all dimesions"

Tesla: The Cocoon of Finality is the only Imaginary singularity and the only Herrscher Core. Its projections between different dimensions caused different Herrscher authorities to appear in reality. - Chapter 34 Honkai Impact 3rd

“So imagine such a being deep in the starry sky.”

“Like humans, they are rooted in a planet.”

“But unlike humans, they went further and merged with the planet.”

“Their will is omnipresent and everlasting, and their hearts are undivided…”

“If such a civilisation existed, what do you think it’d wish for?”

“As I see it, it would desperately want to…”

“Hug its kind.” - Chapter 33 Honkai Impact 3rd

Schrodinger: So, to replicate Durandal’s feat, the Herrscher authority we need should either transcend all dimensions or stand fully independent of the proper world. In other words, the only one that can do it is perhaps…

Schrodinger: Kiana herself who is equal to the Cocoon, or…

Schrodinger: A Herrscher born in the Sea of Quanta.

- Ideas is also "the origin of all abstract concepts" and Ideas will help people reflect an outline of what we’d call truth.
reflect an outline of what we’d call truth. It will help remove the boundary between fiction and reality

Prometheus: Project STIGMA’s lowest-level logic is existence. This is what fiction is built on and the origin of all abstract concepts.

Prometheus: It’s built on existence… the words aren’t important. At any rate, they express existence’s two most important properties: freedom and self-consciousness.

Prometheus: Ideas are at the core of Project STIGMA. Ideas give people enlightenment and reflect an outline of what we’d call truth.

Prometheus: Ideas will always have contradictions… But this is how they express existence and remove the boundary between fiction and reality.

Prometheus: For Project STIGMA, life is the most direct idea, while absoluteness is the highest idea.

Prometheus: This way, the absoluteness of life is set within fiction…

Prometheus: So it can be liberated from individuality and become a truth in and of itself.

Prometheus: …Typically, the cost of such transcendence is death.

Prometheus: It’s difficult to resist death, as it’s a paradox in itself.

Prometheus: Life seeks universality through fiction, but only exists individually.

Prometheus: And so… with Project STIGMA, the death of the individual advances the spirit. - Chapter 33 Honkai Impact 3rd

In conclusion, Hoyoverse uses Plato's Theory of Forms in their cosmology, so at least upgrade for tier Low 1-C(now) and 1-A in the future. The Aeons and Kiana, who is also described as Platonic concept is abstract existence type 1 - Concept(Type 1)

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"bump" 11-12 minutes after the threads creation.

 

[Woomica]

"bump" 11-12 minutes after the threads creation.

Let him cook..just let him cook

 

[Hypertornado099]

Taking heavy inspiration from Plato's theories isn't evidence that the world of forms as described in the Republic exists in the verse

 

[Everything12]

Disagree. The series is inspired by Plato, and even can describe it properly, but nothing you have shown can be described as forms. You are drawing connection between higher projections, truths, concepts and Plato's forms when they do not have the proper evidence to fit the criteria.

Just because they reference Plato does not mean everything is linked to Plato, can also use other philosophies in their work, and even alter how the philosophy of Plato operates while keeping the broad stroke. So firm disagree here.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

Disagree. The series is inspired by Plato, and even can describe it properly, but nothing you have shown can be described as forms. You are drawing connection between higher projections, truths, concepts and Plato's forms when they do not have the proper evidence to fit the criteria.

Just because they reference Plato does not mean everything is linked to Plato, can also use other philosophies in their work, and even alter how the philosophy of Plato operates while keeping the broad stroke. So firm disagree here.

So adding more context for it is enough ?

"——That is the first demonstration of the birth of "Eidos" of the world, and it is the unexpected crystallization of "Schariac" brought by the curse of stigmata" - Hare, a character in HI3 is stated that She is "Eidos

 

[Everything12]

This is simply saying that Stigmata is truth because it contains the ideas that human civilisation have been built on without the flaws that humans themselves contain. They distil humanity down to their fundamental nature without any of the issues born of human error, civilisation in it's truest form.

It uses Plato's allegory of the cave in a way that is similar but notably different to Plato's form without actually changing the allegory itself simply changing the context it's used in.

So the difference between Project Stigma and Plato's forms is that one is the ideal representative of what humanity has built, while the other is the ideal world which shapes reality. One is inspired by a flawed world but lack it's flaws, while the other inspires a flawed world so lacks it flaws.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

Điều này chỉ đơn giản nói rằng Thánh tích là sự thật bởi vì nó chứa đựng những ý tưởng mà nền văn minh nhân loại đã được xây dựng trên đó mà không có những sai sót mà bản thân con người có. Họ chắt lọc nhân loại theo bản chất cơ bản của họ mà không có bất kỳ vấn đề nào sinh ra do lỗi của con người, nền văn minh ở dạng chân thực nhất.

Nó sử dụng câu chuyện ngụ ngôn về cái hang của Plato theo cách tương tự nhưng khác biệt đáng kể với hình thức của Plato mà không thực sự thay đổi câu chuyện ngụ ngôn mà chỉ thay đổi bối cảnh mà nó được sử dụng.

Vì vậy, sự khác biệt giữa các hình thức của Dự án Stigma và Plato là một bên là đại diện lý tưởng cho những gì nhân loại được xây dựng, trong khi một bên là thế giới lý tưởng. Một người lấy cảm hứng từ một thế giới đầy khiếm khuyết nhưng không có sai sót, trong khi người kia lấy cảm hứng từ một thế giới đầy khiếm khuyết n

About Project Stigma, it just bring human near to "Truth", not is truth(Ideas are just the core, like a ""catalyst") . And even this Project is completely success, it just bring them became "incarnation of truth" like Otto

Tesla: Old humans are equivalent to cornerstones like the puppets, while new humans are equivalent to Otto?

Einstein: Yes

Anyway, Stigma Space is also described as "world of ideas"

Gray Serpent: The world of ideas…
Gray Serpent: …Stigmata Space.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

This is simply saying that Stigmata is truth because it contains the ideas that human civilisation have been built on without the flaws that humans themselves contain. They distil humanity down to their fundamental nature without any of the issues born of human error, civilisation in it's truest form.

It uses Plato's allegory of the cave in a way that is similar but notably different to Plato's form without actually changing the allegory itself simply changing the context it's used in.

So the difference between Project Stigma and Plato's forms is that one is the ideal representative of what humanity has built, while the other is the ideal world which shapes reality. One is inspired by a flawed world but lack it's flaws, while the other inspires a flawed world so lacks it flaws.

Einstein: Project STIGMA will merge reality and Imaginary Space, presumably to synchronise the humans defined by them with Finality forcefully.

Einstein: If I’m entirely correct, the authority of Finality that Kevin shoulders will be spread evenly over all humans one day.

Einstein: All surviving new humans will be cursed with Finality, though it’ll most likely be harmless by that time.

Tesla: With this knowledge… if new humans correspond to the Herrscher of Domination’s puppets, then Project STIGMA corresponds to the construction of the Theater of Domination?

Tesla: No. Project STIGMA can’t directly control the Stigmata Awakened, nor does the World Serpent believe they’ll lose their freedom in the end.

 

[Everything12]

None of this really counters what I've said nor adds weight to your proposals.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

Không điều nào trong số này thực sự phản bác lại những gì tôi đã nói cũng như không tăng thêm sức nặng cho đề xuất của bạn.

So what is the thesis to refute plato, can it be summarized? as for the project stigma, as I explained, it only uses Ideas as a catalyst.

 

[Everything12]

It references Plato to explain (narrative and world building) concepts that are different from Plato's own. Using allegories used to explain the theory of form in order to explain things that aren't forms nor show the properties needed for Platonic (Type 1) concepts or ontological superiority (that the new 1-A thing).

 

[Swordsaint456]

dissagree. The evidence is just all to weak. while clear inspiration was shown, the idea of the cave being a thing beyond all dimensionality isn't present. Nor is the idea of platonic forms being perfect and such.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

Không điều nào trong số này thực sự phản bác lại những gì tôi đã nói cũng như không tăng thêm sức nặng cho đề xuất của bạn.

It references Plato to explain (narrative and world building) concepts that are different from Plato's own. Using allegories used to explain the theory of form in order to explain things that aren't forms nor show the properties needed for Platonic (Type 1) concepts or ontological superiority (that the new 1-A thing).

Why do you think so, when what really counts as Plato sees the world as their shadows? Aeons and Kiana also mentioned as eternity being and Herrscher/Aeon in the LD is just projections from higher dimensional
Kiana is also mentioned as "transcend all dimensions"

Schrodinger: So, to replicate Durandal’s feat, the Herrscher authority we need should either transcend all dimensions or stand fully independent of the proper world. In other words, the only one that can do it is perhaps…

Schrodinger: Kiana herself who is equal to the Cocoon, or…

Schrodinger: A Herrscher born in the Sea of Quanta.

 

[CallMeWiertz]

dissagree. The evidence is just all to weak. while clear inspiration was shown, the idea of the cave being a thing beyond all dimensionality isn't present. Nor is the idea of platonic forms being perfect and such.

Schrodinger: So, to replicate Durandal’s feat, the Herrscher authority we need should either transcend all dimensions or stand fully independent of the proper world. In other words, the only one that can do it is perhaps…

Schrodinger: Kiana herself who is equal to the Cocoon, or…

Schrodinger: A Herrscher born in the Sea of Quanta.

Transcending all Dimension is here

 

[Weaver26]

Here's some contexts for theory of forms in hoyoverse

To think is to exist, and memories are proofs of that. All things that make up the material world will eventually perish, but they can live on in another way — through Remembrance.

The pure goodness of the material world sensed and defined by intelligent lifeforms — this is how the so-called "beauty" came into existence.

This may not be a mere delusion, as the Mirror Holders possess a series of items named Mirrors of Transcendence. These mirrors do not reflect the material world, but instead reflect what is considered by the beholder as "beauty" and project that into reality.

In honkai star rail, there're multiple usages of the word "Material World" which is the physical world in theory of forms. This term comes up in Aeons related conversations and narratives. Aeons are concepts. They merged with the concept itself. And they only function according to their paths (concepts).

 

[CallMeWiertz]

Here's some contexts for theory of forms in hoyoverse


In honkai star rail, there're multiple usages of the word "Material World" which is the physical world in theory of forms. This term comes up in Aeons related conversations and narratives. Aeons are concepts. They merged with the concept itself. And they only function according to their paths (concepts).

@Everything12

 

[Delta333]

Will comment later if I have free time, but I want to note that I originally supported the idea of Plato's theory only for the upgrade of the type 1 concept in the verse, not for tier 1 due to the sheer amount of anti-feats in verse.

 

[Unqver]

What should I say about the miHoYo series? It's always quite strong to extract a single segment, but the connection between the storyline is just nonsense

 

[Vietthai96]

transcend all dimensions yet still not even beyond sea of quanta which is 11-dimensional

in honkai star rail, there're multiple usages of the word "Material World" which is the physical world in theory of forms

just because they mention Material World doesn't mean it must belong to theory of form

Also, iirc, isn't Project Stigma is just..........put people into a dream??

 

[CallMeWiertz]

transcend all dimensions yet still not even beyond sea of quanta which is 11-dimensional


just because they mention Material World doesn't mean it must belong to theory of form

Also, iirc, isn't Project Stigma is just..........put people into a dream??

Hey, you forgot that SoQ and Img Tree are two equal things. And wth is 11D, 11D of bubble universe ?
Project Stigma is more than that, it uses "Ideas" to bring new humanity near to "Truth", become "incarnation of truth" like Otto

Prometheus: Ideas are at the core of Project STIGMA. Ideas give people enlightenment and reflect an outline of what we’d call truth.

Prometheus: Ideas will always have contradictions… But this is how they express existence and remove the boundary between fiction and reality.

Tesla: Old humans are equivalent to cornerstones like the puppets, while new humans are equivalent to Otto?

Einstein: Yes

 

[Anzu_Hanashiro]

Because I have quite little knowledge about hoyoverse, I will probably be neutral (disagree).

 

[Vietthai96]

bubble universe isn't even 11D, only SoQ is, and the Tree, also bubble universe is a wrong translation of original chinese texts, which is 世界, mean world, bubble universe actually mean world, and iirc, isn't the most recent stuffs stated that bubble world is just solar system???, and herrschers can only influence the the bubble they represent??

 

[CallMeWiertz]

bubble universe isn't even 11D, only SoQ is, and the Tree, also bubble universe is a wrong translation of original chinese texts, which is 世界, mean world, bubble universe actually mean world, and iirc, isn't the most recent stuffs stated that bubble world is just solar system???, and herrschers can only influence the the bubble they represent??

so anything more ? it's not relevant to Plato ?

 

[Woomica]

I would just kindly suggest not to make loose crts until the entire hoyoverse scaling gets revisioned and properly reworked

 

[Vietthai96]

so anything more ? it's not relevant to Plato ?

didn't you claim Kiana transcend all dimension in your post to support the idea of Plato??, that what i addressed

 

[CallMeWiertz]

didn't you claim Kiana transcend all dimension in your post to support the idea of Plato??, that what i addressed

She transcends all dimesions in physical realm, not SoQ or Img Tree

 

[CallMeWiertz]

I would just kindly suggest not to make loose crts until the entire hoyoverse scaling gets revisioned and properly reworked

@Everything12 may you temporally lock this thread ? I think that i need more preparation for it ? (I wrote it in just 1 hour xD)