Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework

[Solacis]

Maybe "being able to destroy it" might not be the right wording but more like capable of tampering with those dimensions.

Those are two very different things...

This is why hax is separated from AP, especially on a Higher-D scale.

If I screw with something IRL, I'm interacting with an object in 3D space, not tampering with the 3rd dimension. If Dio stops time, he's temporarily interacting with its flow on a limited scale, not warping the 4th dimension in its entirety, and certainly not in a way that makes him infinitely powerful from a 3-dimensional perspective.

 

[ThanatosX]

Those are two very different things...

This is why hax is separated from AP, especially on a Higher-D scale.

If I screw with something IRL, I'm interacting with an object in 3D space, not tampering with the 3rd dimension. If Dio stops time, he's temporarily interacting with its flow on a limited scale, not warping the 4th dimension in its entirety, and certainly not in a way that makes him infinitely powerful from a 3-dimensional perspective.

Actually, in a UES hax and physical stats like AP, Durability and Striking Strenght always scale to each other.
As explained in the page for it, if a character under UES perform a Tier 2 or Tier 1 feat with hax only, said feat will transfer to all other physical statistics regardless.
Honkai Energy is obviously a UES considering how it works, it would be hard to prove the opposite, and all the feats performed by the characters are done throught it. It's the reason as to why the 4-A feat from Elysia was accepted in the first place, it is a feat performed throught hax, but thanks to UES it transfers to all other stats.
Considering there are several Tier 1 feats (like Welt nuking an at least Low 1-C realm and False God Otto creating an entire new branch on the Imaginary Tree are the first that comes to my mind) an argument for Tier 1 characters can be made. In fact, it would be hard to scale the characters ignoring Tier 1 entirely considering how UES works, and I am not even entirely in agreement with Tier 1 characters physically. But this is an argument for another day, if that day will ever come.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Should we create a new CRT for scaling only?

 

[Solacis]

Actually, in a UES hax and physical stats like AP, Durability and Striking Strenght always scale to each other.
As explained in the page for it, if a character under UES perform a Tier 2 or Tier 1 feat with hax only, said feat will transfer to all other physical statistics regardless.
Honkai Energy is obviously a UES considering how it works, it would be hard to prove the opposite, and all the feats performed by the characters are done throught it. It's the reason as to why the 4-A feat from Elysia was accepted in the first place, it is a feat performed throught hax, but thanks to UES it transfers to all other stats.
Considering there are several Tier 1 feats (like Welt nuking an at least Low 1-C realm and False God Otto creating an entire new branch on the Imaginary Tree are the first that comes to my mind) an argument for Tier 1 characters can be made. In fact, it would be hard to scale the characters ignoring Tier 1 entirely considering how UES works, and I am not even entirely in agreement with Tier 1 characters physically. But this is an argument for another day, if that day will ever come.

I mean, yeah. But that's for a UES, and even then, it depends on the mechanics of the actual hax.

That isn't to say Honkai energy isn't a UES (to an extent), but it's important to consider that a hax that starts a chain reaction doesn't use the same energy as a hax that brute-forces every causal effect of itself to occur, and there isn't enough contextual evidence to make the blanket assumption that it's the latter case with dimensional hax in Honkai. Especially so considering the one time we're told about the specifics regarding a bubble world's creation in Dudu's VN, it was a chain reaction started by the initial energy input of the PE Selene, and the rest of the energy was absorbed from surrounding bubbles to actually form the contents of the bubble over an unspecified period of time.

The reason we take Elysia's feat as valid is because we're shown he having full control over the space she creates, and we also know it was made specifically using her power as Origin. For that, we have reason to believe she created it purely out of her own power. With Otto, we're explicitly told he only used the power of the WoH to drive a wedge in the Tree at a specific point in the timeline. The Tree's natural functions through MWI took over from there, so the actual timeline creation wasn't purely done out of Otto's power - especially considering he was basically dead on his feet by the time the timeline-split actually took place.

We can't simplify these things to the detriment of accuracy. There's enough of that in the Honkai fandom already.

 

[Solacis]

Should we create a new CRT for scaling only?

If anyone's up for making it right away, they can just make it and post it here and on the discussion threads.

 

[ThanatosX]

I mean, yeah. But that's for a UES, and even then, it depends on the mechanics of the actual hax.

That isn't to say Honkai energy isn't a UES (to an extent), but it's important to consider that a hax that starts a chain reaction doesn't use the same energy as a hax that brute-forces every causal effect of itself to occur, and there isn't enough contextual evidence to make the blanket assumption that it's the latter case with dimensional hax in Honkai. Especially so considering the one time we're told about the specifics regarding a bubble world's creation in Dudu's VN, it was a chain reaction started by the initial energy input of the PE Selene, and the rest of the energy was absorbed from surrounding bubbles to actually form the contents of the bubble over an unspecified period of time.

The reason we take Elysia's feat as valid is because we're shown he having full control over the space she creates, and we also know it was made specifically using her power as Origin. For that, we have reason to believe she created it purely out of her own power. With Otto, we're explicitly told he only used the power of the WoH to drive a wedge in the Tree at a specific point in the timeline. The Tree's natural functions through MWI took over from there, so the actual timeline creation wasn't purely done out of Otto's power - especially considering he was basically dead on his feet by the time the timeline-split actually took place.

We can't simplify these things to the detriment of accuracy. There's enough of that in the Honkai fandom already.

Accuracy in something like powerscaling is not objective, but based on the interpretations of the feats presented. To me, the current statistics of the characters and the cosmology are not accurate, while for you they are. This is because we interpret feats in a different way, and none of us have the objective truth.
I don't really agree with your interpretation of UES, chain reaction obviously don't scale, but most of the feats I am thinking of are directly performed by the characters rather than done throught some chain reactions, and even those that are done with chain reactions are performed by interacting and/or significantly affecting a higher dimensional construct, something impossible to perform without higher dimensional hax and or AP. Even something as "simple" as putting a wedge in a 11-D structure is something that would technically be impossible without significantly affecting said structure. But this is because I have a different interpretation, which you are free to disagree with.
As long as there is not cosmology downgrade, something that I heavily disagree with, everything else is fine since I lost interest in the verse powerscaling wise and I just want to enjoy the story. But this doesn't mean that different interpretations are inherently wrong.

 

[Rickzy]

I thought this is over lmao

 

[GarrixianXD]

I thought this is over lmao

There hasn't been a response in 20 days, which means this has been over and been denied.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Welt's strength in HSR isn't directly compared to any of his previous known peaks. His bio even says that the amount of strength he retains from his heyday is unknown, not strictly "less". At worst he's rusty from being on the bench for too long, as he says in the Luofu.

Not true, by default he has to be drastically weaker than any previous version of himself in HI3 since he lacks his herrscher core as well as the authority of reason since we're aware Bronya has both, we see just how much of an amp herrscher cores/authorities give herrscher's for example Sirin herself in 2nd eruption. So while it isn't exactly known just how weak he's gotten it is definitely by a pretty marginal degree to say the least

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Actually, in a UES hax and physical stats like AP, Durability and Striking Strenght always scale to each other.
As explained in the page for it, if a character under UES perform a Tier 2 or Tier 1 feat with hax only, said feat will transfer to all other physical statistics regardless.
Honkai Energy is obviously a UES considering how it works, it would be hard to prove the opposite, and all the feats performed by the characters are done throught it. It's the reason as to why the 4-A feat from Elysia was accepted in the first place, it is a feat performed throught hax, but thanks to UES it transfers to all other stats.
Considering there are several Tier 1 feats (like Welt nuking an at least Low 1-C realm and False God Otto creating an entire new branch on the Imaginary Tree are the first that comes to my mind) an argument for Tier 1 characters can be made. In fact, it would be hard to scale the characters ignoring Tier 1 entirely considering how UES works, and I am not even entirely in agreement with Tier 1 characters physically. But this is an argument for another day, if that day will ever come.

Yeah, I was actually gonna bring that up. False God Otto creating a new branch on the IMT in this case is a tier 1 feat so characters who scale to him or above him should be on the same tier. Not to mention another feat that comes to mind is Fu Hua being able to affect & sever the connection between the WoH & Sirin in 2nd eruption

 

[Vietthai96]

How making a branch tier 1 feat??

 

[ThanatosX]

How making a branch tier 1 feat??

Because it counts as significantly affecting a Tier 1 strucuture. There is the false equivalence that the only ways to obtain Tier 2 or 1 is to destroy or create a Tier 2 or 1 structure, when our own Tiering System specify that significantly affectecting such structures is the requirement to reach such level. I know several character that reached Tier 2 or 1 not by destroying or creating them, but by affecting such structures in a significant way.
Even if we really want to use the lowest possible interpretation, it would still be a 2-A feat considering that it's specified that he created infinite possibilities for Kallen (I am on mobile and can't link the time stamp, but it's at 13:55, english subtitles are suggested), and I don't think I have to specify that possibilities are Universes in the Honkaiverse. Funnily enough, that video also specifies that it wasn't the wedge the one that created the branch, but rather the power of the False God imbued throught the wedge, further solidifying that the feat was done by Otto's power rather than the wedge.
But as I said before, I don't want to fight a lost battle since I know that a lot of Honkai Impact supporters are heavily against any Tier 1 scaling, even for the Imaginary Tree. Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but I also don't like how some users disrespects those that think differently. Every opinion is valid if it's based on actual informations.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I know several character that reached Tier 2 or 1 not by destroying or creating them, but by affecting such structures in a significant way.

Yeah same

 

[Rickzy]

There hasn't been a response in 20 days, which means this has been over and been denied.

Alright.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Bumping this, what's left to do?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Thought this was dead

 

[Woomica]

Thought this was dead

Not anymore i guess