Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework

[Solacis]

All details are in this Blog Post. Suffice to say, a lot of changes.

TL;DR

• Honkai Cosmology is not 11-D, as the extra dimensions spoken of in-game are string dimensions, not extra large dimensions.
• Instead, Honkai Cosmology is 6-D at the highest level (the Imaginary Tree).
  Going down the list: the Sea of Quanta is 5-D, Leaf Worlds are 4-D, and Bubble Worlds are Unknown for the reasons stated in the blog post.
• All Honkai 3rd characters prior to the endgame power levels are Tier 6, possibly Tier 5 via scaling up, as this is most consistent with calc yields for feats.
  Only endgame powerhouses like Elysia, Kevin and the Protagonist Trio would scale to 4-A, as they all effortlessly stomp basically everyone inferior to them, and it's consistent with statements.
  Some others in specific keys and scenarios may also scale to 4-A, but that can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Honkai Impact is in a tremendous ****** up state as of the current time. The verse has blatant 11-D, even Outerversal statements and interpretations yet could be downplayed to the lowest degree possible. I disagree with this CRT and pretty much everything concerning the verse's tiering and position on our wiki as of now. I'll come back to this since I have other matters to deal with.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Obviously agree here, good job for fixing many of @Stocking.exe disgraceful indexing, Sol

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honkai Impact is in a tremendous ***** up state as of the current time. The verse has blatant 11-D, even Outerversal statements and interpretations yet could be downplayed to the lowest degree possible. I disagree with this CRT and pretty much everything concerning the verse's tiering and position on our wiki as of now. I'll come back to this since I have other matters to deal with.

Cope. Sheethe. Mald. Skill Issue.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Cope. Sheethe. Mald. Skill Issue.

Funny.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But in serious note, pull out the said blatant 11-D things you said will be very hard to do considering right now we are very strict with this stuff
Espscially if this is the same case of Genshin tier 4 then it's likely even way harder to be accepted

As for now, what this CRT has done is far from making the verse "f***d up"

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Btw Sol, what about the scaling and ap for the new chars that has been released prior after The HI3 protag Trio got their final forms?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The 7 extra dimensions to the 4-D seem to be blatantly called finite compared to 4-D being infinite so not qualifying for qualitative superiority/infinite superiority over each other.

 

[GarrixianXD]

But in serious note, pull out the said blatant 11-D things you said will be very hard to do considering right now we are very strict with this stuff
Espscially if this is the same case of Genshin tier 4 then it's likely even way harder to be accepted

As for now, what this CRT has done is far from making the verse "f***d up"

https://i0.hdslb.com/bfs/article/ba33c6064b7bb43b656388d80f6f1ef974a4e618.png@1256w_918h_!web-article-pic.avif

The third paragraph interprets that the universe that's familiar to us consists of 4 infinite expanding dimensions and 7 limitedly-curling up dimensions. Implies the main universe is part of the spectrum but that description does not imply the entirety of the Sea of Quanta itself.

The second paragraph interprets that those bubble universes inherit the 11th-dimensional properties of the Tub and could choose to bequeath those properties or not.

Also I don't know what context is "String Dimensions" interpreted but I'm unsure where the argument that it's inferior to infinite spatial dimensions stems from.

String theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

https://i0.hdslb.com/bfs/article/ba33c6064b7bb43b656388d80f6f1ef974a4e618.png@1256w_918h_!web-article-pic.avif

The third paragraph interprets that the universe that's familiar to us consists of 4 infinite expanding dimensions and 7 limitedly-curling up dimensions. Implies the main universe is part of the spectrum but that description does not imply the entirety of the Sea of Quanta itself.

The second paragraph interprets that those bubble universes inherit the 11th-dimensional properties of the Tub and could choose to bequeath those properties or not.

Also I don't know what context is "String Dimensions" interpreted but I'm unsure where the argument that it's inferior to infinite spatial dimensions stems from.

String theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I'm still not buying on that tbh, i'll let Sol take the rebuttal on this

Also you two are bunch of p**sy for supporting wank, @Ren1999 @Aernasilver #Run

 

[GarrixianXD]

You really do like bashing at miHoYo, huh?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You really do like bashing at miHoYo, huh?

Only on Genshin, but i'm not supporting on the 11-D shennanigans neither
And i heavily dislike peoples doompost their fave verses just because one change they don't like

 

[Ren1999]

Also you two are bunch of p**sy for supporting wank, @Ren1999 @Aernasilver #Run

be quiet, I'm just listening here, who has a good argument, not a wank or a lowball

 

[Harith0cell]

Should we call more staff member? this is tier 1 revision after all.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Preferably the staff members who are knowledgable on Tier 1.

 

[Avengershows]

Okay, I will write my thoughts on this:

In regards to the 4+7 thing, I believe that it refers to the main world in which Honkai 3rd takes place in. Why do I believe so? Well, because the characters in the visual novel use the word "Multiverse" within the same (iirc) explanation, to explain the Sea of Quanta. Now, I am aware that this term does not actually apply to the SoQ, but that's because of the "unreliable narrator trope". This was simply something they did, and later decided they don't like those terms (Multiverse & that bizz), and changed them to be more consistent with what HG2 was doing (this also happened in the main HI3rd game, where Einstein decided to explain the whole SoQ using the "Multiple Universes" analogy despite in the background saying "World (whatever names)" and later mentions never using Universe for individual Worlds (in CN ofc))

There's also the fact that the Sea of Quanta, even if you ignore above and say "That Universe" means the IMT, has an outright stated 11 dimensions, which different world bubbles can inherit.

There is also the whole Ryuske v Welt thing, where Ryusuke uses the Reality-Fiction trope and Welt hits him with the "If you understand it, Gravitation Effect is connected across dimensions" which happened in the same chapter and clearly refers to the power of gravity already being higher dimensional and just needing understanding for Welt to be able to use that aspect of it, and the whole HG2 thing where a character who went through the heat-death of the Universe multiple times explains that the laws of physics are created by consciousness.

I could go more into what HG2 says but I'd need to collect it all because a 10 year old game is large

 

[GarrixianXD]

In regards to the 4+7 thing, I believe that it refers to the main world in which Honkai 3rd takes place in.

I'm sure it only applies to a single universe in HI3, not even the HI3 multiverse.

 

[Avengershows]

I'm sure it only applies to a single universe in HI3, not even the HI3 multiverse.

There isn't a Hi3rd "Multiverse".
The term multiverse, in cn, was only used once by Shakespeare while the Sea of Quanta was being explored, and in some random collabs in HG2, and the term "parallel universe" was only ever used by Einstein, and a giant world eating alien who outright said that parallel universes don't exist, only infinite worlds.

But that's another topic that I won't get into

 

[Solacis]

The third paragraph interprets that the universe that's familiar to us consists of 4 infinite expanding dimensions and 7 limitedly-curling up dimensions. Implies the main universe is part of the spectrum but that description does not imply the entirety of the Sea of Quanta itself.

The second paragraph interprets that those bubble universes inherit the 11th-dimensional properties of the Tub and could choose to bequeath those properties or not.

Also I don't know what context is "String Dimensions" interpreted but I'm unsure where the argument that it's inferior to infinite spatial dimensions stems from.

If you read through the entire blog properly, you'd see how I already explained this. I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

Furthermore, the entire basis of dimensional tiering is that the difference between higher and lower dimensions are that the higher dimension is infinitely greater than the sum "volume" of the lower one. With extra-large dimensions, this is achieved by the addition of an axis of movement perpendicular to all other dimensional axes, such that the higher dimension would be composed of an infinite number of "slices" of the preceding dimension. String dimensions are fundamentally different in nature as they don't introduce additional axes of movement, and the reference to "curling" and "folding" that are all over Durandal's VN make it absolutely clear that we are talking about this kind of compactified dimensions.

Literally just take a single look at the Tiering System page on the wiki and it says right there that compactified/microscopic dimensions do not contribute to dimensional tiering. If you don't even know the difference between extra-large and string dimensions, you have no grounds to be arguing dimensional tiering at all, much less talk about 11D.

 

[Solacis]

Btw Sol, what about the scaling and ap for the new chars that has been released prior after The HI3 protag Trio got their final forms?

Generally speaking, anyone that is shown to be comparable to Kevin should scale to 4-A, since we don't really have anyone besides him who can directly compare to Herrscher Elysia, which is where the primary 4-A feat comes from.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Generally speaking, anyone that is shown to be comparable to Kevin should scale to 4-A, since we don't really have anyone besides him who can directly compare to Herrscher Elysia, which is where the primary 4-A feat comes from.

Ah okay then, but how about Selee tho? She just get her Herrscher form

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyway @Avengershows, are you in disagreement on this one?

 

[Avengershows]

Anyway @Avengershows, are you in disagreement on this one?

I'm leaning towards disagreeing, yes. But I'd like to give Sola a chance to speak before I decide lol

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm leaning towards disagreeing, yes. But I'd like to give Sola a chance to speak before I decide lol

Yeah what you said are more making sense here compared what Garraxian offered here (no offense btw lel), but i'm still inclined to not supporting the 11-D stuff unless there's more stuffs that will be offered here (which of course need to be a strong one)

I already asked the staffs to come here, but if it's need to be the one who know tier 1 stuff, maybe i'll ask Deagonx and DontTalk to come here even tho i already asked Darkgrath and Planck to came

 

[Vietthai96]

Welp, that it, 11-D is gone, that blatant 7 extra dimensions but finite blow up everything. But anyway i will wait for @Avengershows arguments, still currently i'm neutral leaning toward agreeing with the thread

 

[GarrixianXD]

If you read through the entire blog properly, you'd see how I already explained this. I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

Furthermore, the entire basis of dimensional tiering is that the difference between higher and lower dimensions are that the higher dimension is infinitely greater than the sum "volume" of the lower one. With extra-large dimensions, this is achieved by the addition of an axis of movement perpendicular to all other dimensional axes, such that the higher dimension would be composed of an infinite number of "slices" of the preceding dimension. String dimensions are fundamentally different in nature as they don't introduce additional axes of movement, and the reference to "curling" and "folding" that are all over Durandal's VN make it absolutely clear that we are talking about this kind of compactified dimensions.

Literally just take a single look at the Tiering System page on the wiki and it says right there that compactified/microscopic dimensions do not contribute to dimensional tiering. If you don't even know the difference between extra-large and string dimensions, you have no grounds to be arguing dimensional tiering at all, much less talk about 11D.

Compactified and microscopic doesn’t have much context to do with the string dimensions.

Also, your postulation on the Sea of Quanta is simply a mere assumption that it’s not qualitative dimensions whatsoever. Like, what else would it be?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Welp, that it, 11-D is gone, that blatant 7 extra dimensions but finite blow up everything. But anyway i will wait for @Avengershows arguments, still currently i'm neutral leaning toward agreeing with the thread

Same here, i'll trust what Avenger and/or Sol can offered here so i'm just gonna switch to 'neutral, leaning to agree"

 

[Vietthai96]

Compactified and microscopic doesn’t have much context to do with the string dimensions.

The basis of string theory is compactified and microscopic extra dimensions aside from usual 4d space-time.

And what @Solacis said is true

 

[GarrixianXD]

There isn't a Hi3rd "Multiverse".
The term multiverse, in cn, was only used once by Shakespeare while the Sea of Quanta was being explored, and in some random collabs in HG2, and the term "parallel universe" was only ever used by Einstein, and a giant world eating alien who outright said that parallel universes don't exist, only infinite worlds.

But that's another topic that I won't get into

Seems like poor translation. Anyways, I meant all the bubble universes and other worlds that are introduced in HI3, which is what I’m saying.

Also, y’all would have to consider that Solacis made a blatant assumption without evidence of depth to support that the Sea of Quanta isn’t 11-D; as to simply “no context given” or “defeated by Welt” isn’t enough. Welt is a fairly powerful being who also tampered with the Sea of Quanta, I don’t see how his victory impacts anything here not to mention there are evidence for the Sea of Quanta being extradimensional. As it was blatantly stated, to be 11-D.

 

[GarrixianXD]

The basis of string theory is compactified and microscopic extra dimensions aside from usual 4d space-time.

And what @Solacis said is true

For our 4-D universe practically… That wasn’t exactly my argument, meant to say how that “string dimension” concept in HI3 aligns with the string theory. After deep depth it should make sense, though, it could only apply to normal universes if we’re going by String Theory logic here. Hence, no way it would impact the Sea of Quanta.

 

[Vietthai96]

Seems like poor translation. Anyways, I meant all the bubble universes and other worlds that are introduced in HI3, which is what I’m saying.

Also, y’all would have to consider that Solacis made a blatant assumption without evidence of depth to support that the Sea of Quanta isn’t 11-D; as to simply “no context given” or “defeated by Welt” isn’t enough. Welt is a fairly powerful being who also tampered with the Sea of Quanta, I don’t see how his victory impacts anything here not to mention there are evidence for the Sea of Quanta being extradimensional. As it was blatantly stated, to be 11-D.

Welt vs Ryosuke isn't even important to the cosmology, unless we can debunk the blatant statement that 7 extra dimensions is finite curl dimension, 11-D will go

 

[Avengershows]

unless we can debunk the blatant statement that 7 extra dimensions is finite curl dimension

I've already tackled this point, there's about a 90% chance that statement refers to the "real world space"

 

[GarrixianXD]

Welt vs Ryosuke isn't even important to the cosmology, unless we can debunk the blatant statement that 7 extra dimensions is finite curl dimension, 11-D will go

As said, only applies to a single world. Not the Sea of Quanta entirely.

 

[Phoenks]

The blog looks good but I have a question.

What makes the Sea of Quanta 5-D/Low 1-C? I do not believe just encompassing a 2-A cosmology is enough for that.

By the way, Garry, what they are saying about string theory and how it is treated on this wiki is true.

The dimensions in string theory are completely different than the wiki's "quantifiably superior" coined definition thing. Since they are compactified within space.

 

[Avengershows]

What makes the Sea of Quanta 5-D/Low 1-C?

Nothing, it's verbatim stated to be 11 dimensional, even if you interpret the statement about 4+7D to be about the "Imaginary Tree" that shouldn't affect the Sea of Quanta.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Except the nature of those extra dimensions are put into question with this and this just suggests that not all dimensions within the verse hold infinite superiority. Doesn't matter if it's stated to be 11-D if the dimensions don't qualify for a tier.

Nothing, it's verbatim stated to be 11 dimensional, even if you interpret the statement about 4+7D to be about the "Imaginary Tree" that shouldn't affect the Sea of Quanta.

 

[GarrixianXD]

By the way, Garry, what they are saying about string theory and how it is treated on this wiki is true.

Yeah, I know about that. WhatI meant is that I wasn’t completely sure if Honkai’s ”string dimensions“ confront to those standards. Sorry, should’ve been more specific.

 

[Avengershows]

Except the nature of those extra dimensions are put into question with this and this just suggests that not all dimensions within the verse hold infinite superiority. Doesn't matter if it's stated to be 11-D if the dimensions don't qualify for a tier.

No? It doesn't put them into question, the entire "string dimensions" comes from a character talking about a specific Universe. Not the Sea of Quanta. So no, nothing is questioned.

 

[Phoenks]

Nothing, it's verbatim stated to be 11 dimensional, even if you interpret the statement about 4+7D to be about the "Imaginary Tree" that shouldn't affect the Sea of Quanta.

I'm confused on your response.

In the blog, the Sea of Quanta is said to be 5-D for encompassing a 2-A structure.

I'm asking why that is because the encompassment of a multiverse isn't 5-D to my knowledge.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

No? It doesn't put them into question, the entire "string dimensions" comes from a character talking about a specific Universe. Not the Sea of Quanta. So no, nothing is questioned.

The presence of the idea still puts other supposed higher dimensions to question likely making it so it would only qualify for a "possibly" at best.