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Honkai Cosmology and Scaling Philosophy Rework

Solacis said:
Either way, Elysia is never shown to struggle in a fight anyway, and iirc her only other tangible scaling is via being able to beat full power Kalpas while in base. I suppose if we want to be safe, then we can give her 4-C for base, but eh
Click to expand...
Where's 4-C from?
 
Some counter evidence as to the size of leaves I would like to present however.

image.png

It is not the cornerstone of any specific universe (the word there is 宇宙, literally universe)
image.png

It uses the same characters (宇宙) to describe the setting of Honkai Impact the 3rd

And well, if we assume the "Galaxy" is the tree and star systems or constellations are the leaves, then by the visuals of the recent Myriad Celestia trailer, there would be multiple trees. You can see other galaxies in the background. So assuming those are in fact not the actual scale of the tree, then a single leaf would be at least multi-galactic in size.

image.png


There is also this clop of Long's scions traversing through many separate worlds, which seems to contradict the interpretation of the data bank scan as worlds being separated into literal solar systems / clusters.

 
ShivaShakti said:
Some counter evidence as to the size of leaves I would like to present however.

It is not the cornerstone of any specific universe (the word there is 宇宙, literally universe)

It uses the same characters (宇宙) to describe the setting of Honkai Impact the 3rd

And well, if we assume the "Galaxy" is the tree and star systems or constellations are the leaves, then by the visuals of the recent Myriad Celestia trailer, there would be multiple trees. You can see other galaxies in the background. So assuming those are in fact not the actual scale of the tree, then a single leaf would be at least multi-galactic in size.

There is also this clop of Long's scions traversing through many separate worlds, which seems to contradict the interpretation of the data bank scan as worlds being separated into literal solar systems / clusters.

Click to expand...

The physical size of worlds all vary. The main point is that no one in the Antimatter Legion has ever destroyed more than a cluster of stars, and there's nothing in your scans that can counter that.

Also, VN terminology uses earlier terminology from Mihoyo, which occasionally uses the wrong or different terms from our more modern perspective - so instead you'd have to work with CN context to understand what specific thing they're referencing. For this, you'd have to ask @Avengershows.

You're also misreading the data bank. All it's saying is that the physical size of worlds are finite and that all worlds are separated by Imaginary Energy. None of which is contradicted by what you posted.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Fair enough. @Avengershows would you be able to answer this?
Click to expand...
I'm fine with it, but I haven't checked CN, which anyone can do for the percentages, the CN manga link is available publicly.
Solacis said:
Each Leaf contains a different civilization. Each civilization has its own set of branching timelines via Many Worlds, but HSR makes it a point to show that each world is finitely large and that you can physically fly from one world to another if you can just get past the Imaginary Space that acts as a border between worlds.
Click to expand...
Don't think that's right.
There's multiple instances of worlds being described as infinite, such as in the "infinite in 4 dimensions, finite in 7" example.
As well as in HG2, when Fu Hua connects herself to the infinite energy of the world. Meaning that the world is infinite by virtue of matter being the same as energy.
The way inter-astral flight takes place in HSR is via spatial warping, this was explained in the cn video iirc, plus a few other instances (don't take my word on this for the 2nd part)
 
Avengershows said:
Don't think that's right.
There's multiple instances of worlds being described as infinite, such as in the "infinite in 4 dimensions, finite in 7" example.
As well as in HG2, when Fu Hua connects herself to the infinite energy of the world. Meaning that the world is infinite by virtue of matter being the same as energy.
The way inter-astral flight takes place in HSR is via spatial warping, this was explained in the cn video iirc, plus a few other instances (don't take my word on this for the 2nd part)
Click to expand...
Infinite energy doesn't necessarily mean infinite volume. There are potential cases where different worlds may have special conditions that involve energy generation of that magnitude without affecting the volume of the world itself. You did mention the Wonderland in GGZ was a subset of the world, and itself had infinite space.

Another proposition that takes less assumptions is as I mentioned in the blog. If we take a Leaf World to be the sum of all infinite branching timelines of a single planet/civilization, then the sum of all the finite volume of an infinite set of timelines would also be infinite, no? When I speak of "finite volume", I'm talking about individual timelines, rather than the entire Leaf World.
 
So with now that we were moved from 11-D debate (as it's finished) to the lower tier scaling, i'll bring the summary alongside updating it below:

Summary for the lower tier acceptance:​

The argument came from here:
Now to veer off to a very different but similarly painful scaling-related topic: Tier Jumps.

Why tier jumps? Because as much as it pains me as a fan of hard magic systems, sometimes characters just become thousands of times stronger overnight for no real reason. Looking at you, every JRPG ever. You and your Cloud Strifes jumping from Wall level to Multi-Continental just by getting emotional. You and your Luminaries going from City Block level to Universal+ in between Acts. All the Ren Amamiyas going from Continental to Outerversal just by getting really really motivated.

Suffice to say, I've given up on the bullshit. Honkai Impact 3rd and Honkai Star Rail have both feats and statements, and it just makes the most sense at this point to stick to both of them. Because, even when feats top out at Tier 6 while statements go up to Tier 4, when viewed through the lens of the JRPG genre that Mihoyo is very obviously inspired by (just look at their surveys for HSR), they're actually kinda consistent?

Take a look at Honkai Impact 3rd. Most characters scale to people like Siegfried or Sirin or 2E Welt Yang, who all have a fairly consistent scaling from calcs yielding 6-A and High 6-A results. Meanwhile, the top tiers all scale to feats such as creating and moving stars, rivaling supernovas, and destroying worlds. At first glance it would seem odd to bridge the two extremes together. That is, until you take into account that the characters that these top-tier feats all apply to are consistently portrayed to be in a league of their own.

Destroying worlds and rivaling supernovas are attributed to Kevin, who consistently bodies every single character that ever fights him all the way until the final battle of Part 1, where he fights the strongest forms of the protagonist trio in Kiana, Mei and Bronya. Even when fighting characters that are hyped up and are able to minutely hurt him, the instant he got serious, he blitzed, one-shot and vaporized Senti - one of the strongest characters even up until the endgame. And Elysia, who the "creating and moving stars" statements are attributed to, is consistently portrayed to only be a little weaker than Kevin.

So tiering wise, as long as the character in question is directly compared or reasonably scales to another character that scales to 4-A, and is consistently presented as being in a league of their own compared to everyone else who scales to 6-A, then it shouldn't be a problem to scale them to the former tier.
Click to expand...
@Paul_Frank disagree via this:
As for the tier 6 stuff, I have to disagree there too really, given the original tier 4 stuff explicitly came from those earlier characters (HoV and HoR having the energy needed to create the solar system, Welt's black hole calc, etc)
Click to expand...
With @Solacis counter it with this:
Welt's black hole calc has been debunked for ages. It was all born from the mistranslated explanations that were rampant in 2nd Eruption. There were no mentions of solar masses or even the Chandrasekhar Limit in the original CN text.

As for the Dudu solar system feat, iirc someone from the Discord server brought up that the actual bubble world in Dudu's VN isn't provably the same size as the real solar system, only that it was roughly at the coordinates within the Sea of Quanta that corresponded to the real solar system in Real Space.
Click to expand...

Updated version of the lower scaling chain acceptance:​

Solacis said:
The main priority here is deciding on the scaling for the actual characters. Sure, whatever, we can get more context regarding 11-D, but it's pretty much universally agreed upon that it's staying, so I'm calling it a moot point. What I believe is most important now is to get the Tier 6/Tier 4 tiering out of the way.

  • Regarding tier 6, the calc yields are pretty consistent in 6-A and High 6-A for AHR Siegfried and Sirin Ascendant.
  • Then we'd have 4-C peak Welt via HSR, which may or may not be debatable considering other scaling contexts (comparisons to Joyce, Reanna and Otto).
  • After that, we'd have 4-A Elysia from the previous CRT, with Kevin, HoFi Kiana, HoO Mei, and HoTr Bronya.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
@Emirp sumitpo added the calcs we have and context on the scaling:
Emirp sumitpo said:
Ok, so here's the list of accepted calcs I could find:

Honkai Beast smacks Bronya - Building level (0.99 Tons of TNT)
Sirin threatens to destroy Singapore - Mountain level+ (558.2 Megatons of TNT)
Fu Hua cloud split - Mountain level+ (803.31 Megatons of TNT)
Wendy can vaporize several cities around - Large Island level (296.4 Gigatons of TNT)
9th Herrscher destroys a continent - Small Country level+ (4.85 Teratons of TNT)
Selene's Attack Potency - Country level (8.97 Teratons of TNT)
Kiana survives a Honkai bomb - Multi-Continent level (12.31 Petatons of TNT)
Siegfried cloud split - Multi-Continent level (60.69 Petatons of TNT)
Durandal destroys Europe - Multi-Continent level (90.46 Petatons of TNT)

Tier 6 is fairly consistent.
Click to expand...

Current tally for the lower tier scaling

Lower Tier Scaling:​

Agree: GarrixianXD, AvengersShows, Enryu_The_Red_Tower, Jackpact, Harith0Cell, Jackpact, Kisaragi_Megumi, Vietthai96, DarkDragonMedeus, Emirp Sumitpo (10)

Neutral:

Disagree: Paul_Frank (1)
Click to expand...

Right now we only need one more staff to approve this and concluding the whole thread
 
We'll need to discuss the finer details of the scaling chain to figure out where the cut-off points between tiers are going to be, but I suppose that can be saved for the discussion thread as and when people make the profiles.

As for the cosmology itself, I assume we're working with @Executor_N0's proposal on the dimensional mechanics?

The main points being:
  • Some Bubble Worlds have strings, some have extra-large, some are finite and some are infinite, but they all start with 4 spatial dimensions + 7 extra ones inherited from either the Tree or the Sea. (Executor's main proposition after the above discussion that both myself and Avenger agree is most consistent)
  • The Sea encompasses all of these varied dimensional types, and the Imaginary Space transcends the Sea.
  • The Tree exists inside the Imaginary Space, and the Sea exists 'between' Real Space (everything physical; basically the first 4 dimensions) and Imaginary Space (everything else) as it contains aspects of both, and you need to travel past the local coordinates of the Sea to enter the Imaginary Space (see: Chapters 12 and 25-EX).
The exact tiering for the cosmology can be decided later (since it's not that important with barely anybody scaling), but it'll be easier to do if everyone's on the same page.
 
Solacis said:
We'll need to discuss the finer details of the scaling chain to figure out where the cut-off points between tiers are going to be, but I suppose that can be saved for the discussion thread as and when people make the profiles.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that will be much better to do since this thread has gotten long enough
Solacis said:
As for the cosmology itself, I assume we're working with @Executor_N0's proposal on the dimensional mechanics?

The main points being:
  • Some Bubble Worlds have strings, some have extra-large, some are finite and some are infinite, but they all start with 4 spatial dimensions + 7 extra ones inherited from either the Tree or the Sea. (Executor's main proposition after the above discussion that both myself and Avenger agree is most consistent)
  • The Sea encompasses all of these varied dimensional types, and the Imaginary Space transcends the Sea.
  • The Tree exists inside the Imaginary Space, and the Sea exists 'between' Real Space (everything physical; basically the first 4 dimensions) and Imaginary Space (everything else) as it contains aspects of both, and you need to travel past the local coordinates of the Sea to enter the Imaginary Space (see: Chapters 12 and 25-EX).
The exact tiering for the cosmology can be decided later (since it's not that important with barely anybody scaling), but it'll be easier to do if everyone's on the same page.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we can go with what Ex proposed here, anyone else?
 
Solacis said:
Another proposition that takes less assumptions is as I mentioned in the blog. If we take a Leaf World to be the sum of all infinite branching timelines of a single planet/civilization, then the sum of all the finite volume of an infinite set of timelines would also be infinite, no? When I speak of "finite volume", I'm talking about individual timelines, rather than the entire Leaf World.
Click to expand...
okaey, counter point:
HG2 mentions another world and within said world there's a 6 trillion light-year distance

Story 1: The extinction of dragons
Six trillion light-years away, a twinkling lone star went out.
Dragons were no longer native to the planet where they had once existed.
"My home..."
Before the Throne was destroyed, she was transported by the last of the Clan's power to an unknown kingdom-
The land of Man.

Peepeepoopoo
 
Avengershows said:
okaey, counter point:
HG2 mentions another world and within said world there's a 6 trillion light-year distance

Story 1: The extinction of dragons
Six trillion light-years away, a twinkling lone star went out.
Dragons were no longer native to the planet where they had once existed.
"My home..."
Before the Throne was destroyed, she was transported by the last of the Clan's power to an unknown kingdom-
The land of Man.
Click to expand...
From the statement you posted, it doesn't seem like they specify that the other planet is still in the same world. Many mentions in Star Rail talk about "another planet" and "light years away" when referring to other worlds, so we shouldn't immediately jump to it being in the same world just because the distance is specified and that they talk about planets rather than worlds.

Though if there's additional context to it, then I'd be glad to hear it.
 
Avengershows said:
One of the characters voicelines talks about how when she looks up at the sky she can still see her world or smn like that
Click to expand...
Is this literal, or a case of "I can still see my home over the horizon" homesickness kind of deal? Cuz it feels weird to just assume said character has vision that lets them see something from trillions of light years away unless they have similar feats that makes this contextually literal.
 
Solacis said:
Is this literal, or a case of "I can still see my home over the horizon" homesickness kind of deal? Cuz it feels weird to just assume said character has vision that lets them see something from trillions of light years away unless they have similar feats that makes this contextually literal.
Click to expand...
Yeah no the actual line is different, I just checked, ignore it.

Either way, this shouldn't be in a different world, otherwise they'd have written that she was in a different world like they did for Star-Destroyer Essex, whose story directly mentions Star Clusters she travels across.
 
I mean, as usual, the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. It's just a "we don't know either way" until they say it outright, so until then it isn't really relevant to the discussion. Tho do keep us posted.

Aside from that, is there anything left for us to discuss?
 
Solacis said:
I mean, as usual, the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. It's just a "we don't know either way" until they say it outright, so until then it isn't really relevant to the discussion. Tho do keep us posted.

Aside from that, is there anything left for us to discuss?
Click to expand...
Do you guys have a discord server? If yes then mind sending invitation link here?
 
Solacis said:
I mean, as usual, the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. It's just a "we don't know either way" until they say it outright, so until then it isn't really relevant to the discussion. Tho do keep us posted.
Click to expand...
Not really, HG2 has incredibly consistency with stating when something is a different world and when it isn't. Also, if it was another world, the distance wouldn't be able to be measured in light years since the increments of time and size don't really work in Imaginary Space, and light itself cannot cross from one world to another.
 
Avengershows said:
Not really, HG2 has incredibly consistency with stating when something is a different world and when it isn't. Also, if it was another world, the distance wouldn't be able to be measured in light years since the increments of time and size don't really work in Imaginary Space, and light itself cannot cross from one world to another.
Click to expand...
Fair point on the light thing. Still, it would vary either way since afaik this is a single case out of however many worlds we know about. Can't apply one world's standards to another, especially considering how we've already agreed on differences in fundamental laws of physics between individual worlds being the most likely case.
 
Solacis said:
considering how we've already agreed on differences in fundamental laws of physics between individual worlds being the most likely case.
Click to expand...
We've gone through multiple worlds in HSR, yet the physics don't change that much. Same goes for HG2, we've seen characters from other worlds.
The only time physical laws really change is when you get into the territory of Bubble Worlds.
 
Avengershows said:
We've gone through multiple worlds in HSR, yet the physics don't change that much. Same goes for HG2, we've seen characters from other worlds.
The only time physical laws really change is when you get into the territory of Bubble Worlds.
Click to expand...
Well, either way it's currently an outlier. An outlier we can use, but not apply to other worlds considering how inconsistent sizes are, especially with Genshin being ridiculously tiny.

That aside, should we get to deciding where each scaling tier starts and ends? Or should we finish up here and leave that for the discussion thread/discord group?
 
Avengershows said:
Genshin is the outlier, Phanes took the world and placed it in an eggshell, isolating it from everything else.
Click to expand...
Actually, now that I think about it, with light being unable to pass through the imaginary barrier, that would mean starry skies are still encompassed in the same world. That would definitely encompass at least some thousands of light years of space 🤔. In which case, nevermind on the outlier, bc at those scales, it basically doesn't even matter anymore.

Though again, that wouldn't really affect scaling outside of GGZ.
 
Solacis said:
Thanks for telling me you don't know what outliers are or how they're treated on this wiki without actually telling me.
Click to expand...
Wanna explain how's that an outlier? Btw, I fairly understand the concept of outliers so no need to assume my knowledge.
 
Solacis said:
Though again, that wouldn't really affect scaling outside of GGZ.
Click to expand...
The scaling wouldn't really be affected, but it's good to have a note of what goes on.
All word-lines of Earth would be of equal size, with the exception of the HG2 world having the 'Wonderland' in it, that wasn't a natural occurrence, but a result of the HG2 Earth being the first place where the Honkai appears in the 'IMT' (I'm aware the IMT isn't the exact same as the Universe, I'm just using it for the ease of explanation)
 
GarrixianXD said:
Wanna explain how's that an outlier? Btw, I fairly understand the concept of outliers so no need to assume my knowledge.
Click to expand...
There's a page dedicated to explaining this. If you've read it and still disagree, then forgive me.

Either way, I have no reason to debate the topic when the end result isn't relevant.
 
Avengershows said:
The scaling wouldn't really be affected, but it's good to have a note of what goes on.
All word-lines of Earth would be of equal size, with the exception of the HG2 world having the 'Wonderland' in it, that wasn't a natural occurrence, but a result of the HG2 Earth being the first place where the Honkai appears in the 'IMT' (I'm aware the IMT isn't the exact same as the Universe, I'm just using it for the ease of explanation)
Click to expand...
So I suppose that's that for this thread.

I'll post another CRT some time down the line to discuss the exact placements of the notable characters. Watch it have nowhere near the amount of input and "input" that was had for this one.
 
Solacis said:
There's a page dedicated to explaining this. If you've read it and still disagree, then forgive me.
Click to expand...
I mean, the Quantum Sea and the Imaginary Tree has been stated multiple times to be destructible by a character’s power. Yet, we got characters who didn’t even dent the moon with their power. That’s pretty much how plot takes into place, so it doesn’t seem much like an outlier. Anyways, since you said there’s no point in debating on this, I’m dropping the topic as well.
 
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