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Persona General Revisions Thread Part 4 : 1-C (or higher) Upgrade + Cognition/Character ability additions.

Dr._whiteee said:
So not sure if this is allowed or if I have to make a separate CRT for it but I forgot one ability addition in the OP. It is pretty straightforward though.

Takuto Maruki should also get the abilities "Flow", "Wakefulness", and "Detox" that Joker currently possesses, as it is Maruki's teachings in the physical world that allow Joker to benefit from said powers.
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Lets just save that for the next CRT, still running through Strikers, Compendium, and Arena.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Buddha explains that maya is under illusion like his mother of the same name, if she chooses to say the Self actually matters which then prompts a fight with buddha. Also highlighting my earlier point of enlightenment, transcendence, and the ultimate gate. This is also prevalent given humans are stuck in what is essentially a cycle of samsara.

Virochana outright states the self is but the reflection of actual existence in brahman. "Though thyself art the universe, and thine self is itself, the light that illuminates the soul.". Very close to the Thelemic point of view of every person being a star.

Umr at Tawil who guards the Ultimate Gate is referred to as the avatar of the "All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self" another illusion to this idea personified by various archetypes in the CU.
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So, to summarize our discussion on this: The awakened world is just an illusion (Maya), and Kadath / The Collective Unconscious is the Monad that exists as the true reality which transcends and encompasses all of this, hence it being linked to Brahman and Yog-Sothoth (Who is explicitly described as "limitless both in being and self," in this case), and being represented by the union of Macrocosm (The Hexagram) and Microcosm (The Pentagram), while Philemon and Nyarlathotep both inhabit a level even deeper than it, yes? Provided that this is the case, then I do agree with 1-C, yeah.

Although, based on what you've told me. Enlil's realm itself resides in the Collective Unconscious, no? All of the scans that you've shown also seem to refer to Kadath and the CU as being one and the same, hence why the Ultimate Gate leading to it is described as the boundary between the Awakened World and the Unconscious World. Given that, it seems a bit weird to assume that Kadath transcends her realm outright, instead of just containing it within itself.

And, for the record, I still disagree with 1-A. Though I figure we can decide on this part in here instead.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Although, based on what you've told me. Enlil's realm itself resides in the Collective Unconscious, no? All of the scans that you've shown also seem to refer to Kadath and the CU as being one and the same, hence why the Ultimate Gate leading to it is described as the boundary between the Awakened World and the Unconscious World. Given that, it seems a bit weird to assume that Kadath transcends her realm outright, instead of just containing it within itself.
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Kadath Mandala is home to each Demon's Archetype. When Diety's leave the realm they act so through proxy of the archetype in lower reality. Similar to Philemon doing so. This is why the Diety's are never truly beaten, even if this happens in Kadath as shown with Umr. Enlil created her own Low 1-C world to house the records, but did not do such while in Kadath. Kadath is a special place because it houses the archetypes, Enlil, Chronos, Mementos, Palaces, etc are all spiritual universes/multiverses/complex multiverses. Kadath is the layer beyond such distinctions in which each archetype occupies a void and has a temple. Enlil even mentions she manifested her world through the CU to give it physical form.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
And, for the record, I still disagree with 1-A. Though I figure we can decide on this part in here instead.
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Okay onto the fun part. For the sake of simplicity, I will use your format for the TP tier breakdown because I think it's visually easy on the eyes and of course, you will be familiar with it. We can isolate the points we can disagree on and move from there.

  • Baseline Universe, World, or Reality in Persona. (Low 2-C)
  • Persona multiverse consisting of infinite physical realms housing the infinite souls captured by Enlil and the Akashic Record. (2-A)
  • Spirit World, which is a deeper reality completely free from the restrictions of both time and space, ranging from alternate realities of a person's POV of reality (a cognitive or spiritual realm) to "deeper" realms that can transcend even the Akashic Records. The emotions and projections of consciousness here are actually what dictate the material realm (ie changing someone's heart leads to them being affected IRL) and physical reality is simply what is widely agreed upon in this realm. This realm also includes places such as the dream realm (realm containing the cognitive worlds of people sleeping), Abyss of Time, all realms created by Dieties, and the literal sea of souls containing all souls of the past and future. (ranges from 2-A - at least low 1-C).
  • A singular realm of Void that stands even deeper than the Spirit World, being portrayed as underlying it in the same way that it underlies the material world, existing as a singular state of being from which all distinctions are made, and as completely devoid of time and space, bar the transcendental forms of those concepts that are required for time and space to exist across reality below it. (What you agree is 6-D Low 1-C, and I see as low 1A - 1A)
  • Philemon's Realm, which is a transcendental reality who, along with Nyarlathotep, represents the purest conceptualized version of existence (The unconscious), acting as supreme archetypes to the archetypes that exist in the lower realm, possibly also extending to Maruki and Nyx as well due to statements of a "realm of light and darkness" being mentioned by Liz as one of the deepest layers of the CU, and of course, each having their mythology highlighted upon as antagonist of the game and it being consistent. (What you currently see as 1-C and I see as deeper into 1-A (1-A+?) or 1-A if the previous realm is low 1A)
  • The Unconscious - The oneness that underlies all of existence and is at the root of all dualities, being nothing but a featureless intellect that lacks form or attributes entirely. Inherent sentience that experienced itself and created its first forms in Philemon, and Nyarlathtoep (it's conceptualizations of itself), along with Adam Kadmon (Archetype of human realized potential), with Nyx (primordial Night) being birthed somewhere thereabouts. Then created a world for "observers" or "users of cognition" to expand beyond its own creation power. Leaving humans with the ability to use subjective reality via the spiritual world, and ascend to the level of archetype, and becomes a fundamental unit of the CU through enlightenment bypassing the duality of spirit to matter. (High 1-A for me, you never touched on this level)
So off the bat let is skip past the bottom one because it's only relevant if we agree on the former points and ultimately would be useless outside of itself.

I think our biggest disconnect comes around the spiritual-material and Kadath connections. From my perspective, the spiritual worlds are unaffected by space and time. Space and time still exists there sure, but the concepts are ultimately pretty meaningless and not what "fixes" the spiritual world (or really the physical world). The dimensionality that matters in the case of "fixing" reality being its fundamental level of abstractness (or closeness to the root of the CU used by the analogy of "deepness". Persona makes this quite clear represented by this triangle. Material world corresponds to the conscious, which actually just a larger facet of personal unconscious (think palace rulers and each person's cognitive world), which in turn is just a reflection of the collective unconscious of alive humans (the greater spiritual realms, and Dieties which arise from Kadath to interfere with the lower realms), which is ultimately an illusion to the realm of Kadath (or "divine" realm) in which archetypes exist as the basic unit of existence below them. This realm completely transcending any concept of time and space and all dualities of a physical reality. Which in turn leaves Phil and Nyar existing as the two figureheads of the CU in their own realm "one level deeper" than and the lesser archetypes. Which in turn is dwarfed by the actual essence of the Unconscious.

Now I will highlight the relevant parts of the outeversal standards page.

1-A: Outerverse level

Characters who functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System, and stand outside of any extensions of infinite hierarchies and sizes, to varying degrees and magnitudes. In more straightforward terms, this category could be said to be occupied by characters whose size and/or level of power cannot be reached by merely stacking bigger infinities on top of each other.

Low 1-A | Low Outerverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.

Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature of such transcendence is given.

1-A | Outerverse level: Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level, even compared to infinite or uncountably infinite dimensions, usually by perceiving them as akin to fiction or something similarly insignificant.

However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size.[2]

We clearly lack the specifics of an infinite hierarchy of transcending dimensions statement. However, we do know a few things. In persona the many worlds theory is stated to be an interpretation of their reality with infinite possibilities. We know that qualia is what dictates reality from the spiritual world to the material, and the spiritual exist where time and space are meaningless. With qualia being quantized, I think it is fair to make a point of the qualia space vector argument. Given that such a space is the theoretical construct of our 1 universe, and would require such a vector for containment. Persona being laughably beyond one space time continua, and also existing in verse where qualia is explicitly "quantized" in the Akashic record/spiritual worlds, and not only for humans but everything on the evolutionary ladder.

Which is why even in our limited IRL scope (and being limited to only perception experiences), it would take infinite dimensions to contain.

Here we can see the interaction between just a set of 4 elements in the extreme processes needed for qualia.
image0.png
So given that the concept of Observation (and thus cognition) being based on qualia, and Persona existing a verse in which qualia is quantized dating back to the origin of life itself, I don't think it is out of bounds to suggest the spiritual world as being a qualia space. Power over the spiritual world also being described as "transcending dimensions" or "power over the dimensions."

From my position, the spiritual world would exist as a realm of existence where time and space are meaningless and they exist in a hierarchy of transcendental realms (like Enlil transcending the Akashic record) based on their abstractness (which in turn is a reflection of it's closeness to the source of the unconscious) which is also influenced by both the infinite possibilities of human's making up the physical realm, but also those of the memories of all life across all Earths/planets, alternate timelines of the same reality (such as the case of the other side in P2, and Minako/Minato in P3), and the collective data of AI (such as in the case of Sophie and Emma).

Thus Kadath transcends the spiritual in a way that no matter how many infinities of a spiritual world you stack on to one another (which are already superior to actual space time) you could not reach the ontological existence of the archetypes that exist higher and dictate allow lower. You would need a quality that allowed for the spiritual dimensions to allow for them to break the Maya, and join the first true iteration of "the self" in Kadath Mandala. Which is completely transcendental to any stacking of space and time one could accomplish with just those entities. That to me concludes an ontological "space" equivalent to something in scope beyond a High 1-B structure.

Although I am not firm on a flat out rating and could see "Likely" or "possibly" being injected due to it not being as readily evident as some other verses without a deep dive into Persona.

Let me know if you need clarification or scans, and thanks as always for the time.
 
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