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If you take Igor's words and final battle with Nxy, atleast i can understand.
1- Minato normally doenst have that power, so he doenst scale
2- The attacks getting blocked and missing can be also understood as Minato's will and nature of the universe arcana than something related to is own power.
Atleast for me i see a possible 1-C scalling.
Litteraly the first words "the lack of absutely everything" meam i am not wrong lol, same for the precede or oppose, velvet litteraly doesn't have that, i mean it's litteraly that exist in some moment and is from a concept“2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.”
You’re literally arguing against the wiki page at this point.
You’re saying things with no proof.Litteraly the first words "the lack of absutely everything" meam i am not wrong lol, same for the precede or oppose, velvet litteraly doesn't have that, i mean it's litteraly that exist in some moment and is from a concept
Go on then summarise the argumentExplaining why the Velvet Room is NEP Type 2, and not Type 1.
Are you referring to this? If you want staff evaluations to reach a conclusion here, you need more elaborate explanations.The Velvet Room is a nonexistent space, that isn’t observed by Cognition, a conceptual power. That’s the exact place the PTs go to when they’re erased, it’s not material, it’s abstract.
@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsuraPersona users get Nonexistent interaction for being able to exist and fight in the Velvet Room. The Velvet Room being a place that only subjectively appears to a person like a dream and therefore cannot actually exist, and is described abstractly by Elizabeth.
This is further elaborated on by the fact that Okada, one of the main heads of Atlus, straight up says Philemon (creator of the Velvet Room) and Igor (currently owns it), may even be fabricated existences.
This is lastly expanded upon by the fact that when the PTs are erased from the public’s Cognition (on a conceptual level), they end up in the Velvet Room.
If you mean the OP itself, I have no option since I have never played a Persona game nor was ever interested enough to watch a playthrough of it. So I can't comment on anything.What do you think about this?
I’m proposing NEP Type 2.If you mean the OP itself, I have no option since I have never played a Persona game nor was ever interested enough to watch a playthrough of it. So I can't comment on anything.
If you mean the suggested power, then it looks fine to add.
This isn’t enough?Persona users get Nonexistent interaction for being able to exist and fight in the Velvet Room. The Velvet Room being a place that only subjectively appears to a person like a dream and therefore cannot actually exist, and is described abstractly by Elizabeth.
This is further elaborated on by the fact that Okada, one of the main heads of Atlus, straight up says Philemon (creator of the Velvet Room) and Igor (currently owns it), may even be fabricated existences.
This is lastly expanded upon by the fact that when the PTs are erased from the public’s Cognition (on a conceptual level), they end up in the Velvet Room.
Alrighty, gimme a minute, gonna flesh this out as much as possible.Not for Type 2 in my view. At least not without full context on the last sentence.
The statement by okada doesn't work for me. You should also mention how the place is between dream and reality, mind and matter. It is not on the mental plane, it is not made of matter, and it isn't part of realityAlrighty, gimme a minute, gonna flesh this out as much as possible.
Broken scansWhat is Cognition?
Cognition is the driving force of everything that exists within Persona. Composed of the unconscious and conscious thoughts, everyone possess their own cognitive world - their pheneron and perspective of reality. It has so much influence over reality, that reality is composed of it, and that the real world doesn’t exist - a subjective and overall meaningless term. Philemon, one-half of the Collective Unconscious, states that Cognition created space itself. It’s further elaborated here on why Cognition is accepted as Type 2 conceptual manipulation, as well as Type 4.
Why does this matter?
When one is erased from the Collective Unconscious (a mass of Cognition, the source of reality), their concept begins to fade from memory, and then further, erased from existence. Take note of the fact that when they are erased, the Phantom Thieves are within the Velvet Room, a space between the duality of dream and reality, mind and matter, and has no form, alluding the fact that it doesn’t exist. This is further contextualized by the fact that the mind, and the Velvet Room, are stated to be abstract by Elizabeth, a Velvet Attendant.
Okada alludes to the fact that because Igor, and the Velvet Room, is only accessible in a dream (that only has form based off the residents mental perceptions) - Igor (master of the Velvet Room), and Philemon (creator of the Velvet Room), are fabrications of the protagonist’s abstract mind, and may not exist at all.
Have you more scan for the "their concept begin to fade away" ? Because for what you scan show they could just have been erased from reality and memory. And the rest still correspond more to NEP1 as actually you should not be able to access a NEP2 place through dream(and NEP1 still can be abstract), and same for being fabrication of mind even if not exist (since NEP2 can't even be imagined in first except if they want to be)What is Cognition?
Cognition is the driving force of everything that exists within Persona. Composed of the unconscious and conscious thoughts, everyone possess their own cognitive world - their pheneron and perspective of reality. It has so much influence over reality, that reality is composed of it, and that the real world doesn’t exist - a subjective and overall meaningless term. Philemon, one-half of the Collective Unconscious, states that Cognition created space itself. It’s further elaborated here on why Cognition is accepted as Type 2 conceptual manipulation, as well as Type 4.
Why does this matter?
When one is erased from the Collective Unconscious (a mass of Cognition, the source of reality), their concept begins to fade from memory, and then further, erased from existence. Take note of the fact that when they are erased, the Phantom Thieves are within the Velvet Room, a space between the duality of dream and reality, mind and matter, and has no form, alluding the fact that it doesn’t exist. This is further contextualized by the fact that the mind, and the Velvet Room, are stated to be abstract by Elizabeth, a Velvet Attendant.
Okada alludes to the fact that because Igor, and the Velvet Room, is only accessible in a dream (that only has form based off the residents mental perceptions) - Igor (master of the Velvet Room), and Philemon (creator of the Velvet Room), are fabrications of the protagonist’s abstract mind, and may not exist at all.
it's already aceepted that Cognition erasure is concept erasureHave you more scan for the "their concept begin to fade away" ? Because for what you scan show they could just have been erased from reality and memory. And the rest still correspond more to NEP1 as actually you should not be able to access a NEP2 place through dream(and NEP1 still can be abstract), and same for being fabrication of mind even if not exist (since NEP2 can't even be imagined in first except if they want to be)
And the link for the thread of concept type 2 and 4 is not working
Well if that was accepted with that then well seem like a conceptual erasure (tho i don't know if type 4 concept on type 2 scale work for NEP2)it's already aceepted that Cognition erasure is concept erasure
Understanding (Megami Tensei)
The phenomenon of Understanding, also referred to as Observation or Cognition, refers to the a special ability inherent to the human race in Megami Tensei, which allows the masses to influence, shape and command reality itself based on their collective thoughts and beliefs, controlling the...vsbattles.fandom.com