That still doesn't really matter. Again, the concept itself being used doesn't mean you can pull details from external sources to justify any ratings, especially since, again, those specific statements are not in the verse, even though the ideas which they describe are. We really only concern ourselves with things that are in the text, and everything else is pretty much irrelevant,
See but my thing is I am no adding any new concepts to the lore by digging up the quotes. The archetypes being a transcendental ability to recognize inherent patterns is not something that is devoid from Persona. The quotes add context to the ideas described time and time again in persona. For instance we clearly see a direct reference to the archetypes relationship to synchronicity and constellation. Which was explained by the quote I linked in more detail given the teacher implies it would be too deep to explain to you. But given the explicit nature of the subject matter (Jungian philosophy/psychology) we know exactly what he was referring to by bringing that up. Which is why I believe the quote is usable to expound on topics the game canonized.
unless the series is just really extensive in its explanations and quotes all of the relevant paragraphs verbatim, like I said before. Similar arguments were rejected for plenty of other verses, and this case is no different.
Except that I am not arguing solely from the quotes I am using. The quotes are not the lynchpin pieces of evidence. They are clarifiers of the source material. P4 already tells us that the archetypes are the fundamental units of the CU, are infinite, and relate directly to synchronicity and constellation. We have the instances of Umr acting as a concept that can effect all of space and time, and we know the CU predates all life and space/time itself. All of these things are direct attributes of platonic concepts which we already know Jung took major conceptual inspiration from.
What do the references to Plato's Forms address, exactly? From what I remember, the only mention of them refers to an in-game weapon being the Form of a bow, which doesn't seem very promising for obvious reasons.
Because the archetypes are painted as being of an inaccessible realm from which they dictate lower reality below the threshold that divides them based on qualitative existence. The archetypes also being unbound by spacetime, predating it, and creating it.
Citation needed. The only thing I remember that's anywhere close to an explicit indication of that is Persona 2 making some vague references to the concepts of Maya and Brahman.
I don't believe it's valid to call those "
vague", given they
explicitly touch upon the cosmology. In Kadath you can either fight the demons that exist there (bar some who just want to fight) or a have a philosophical discussion about the concept they embody. That is how you are awarded the concepts comprising Shiori, the girl you need to save from Persona supplantation.
Buddha explains that maya is
under illusion like his mother of the same name, if she chooses to say
the Self actually matters which then prompts a fight with buddha. Also highlighting my earlier point of enlightenment, transcendence, and the ultimate gate. This is also prevalent given
humans are
stuck in what is essentially a
cycle of samsara.
Virochana
outright states the self is but the
reflection of actual existence in brahman. "Though thyself art the universe, and thine self is itself, the light that illuminates the soul.". Very close to the Thelemic point of view of every person being a star.
Umr at Tawil who guards the Ultimate Gate is referred to as the avatar of the "
All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self" another illusion to this idea personified by various archetypes in the CU.
This concept being the legit first thing ever seen in a persona game as th
e opening to Persona 1 and a
core theme behind the game
typically exemplified by
Philemon himself
[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
The name "Kadath Mandala" is specific to the Tatsuya scenario. In P2 and the databook it is called
Monado Mandala, which is a 2 for one package indicating what the realm is. The monad referring to the first root of existence from which all other things arise form, and the
Mandala being the archetype of
the self [2] representing the humans being smaller parts of the unified existence and
meaning. Seen also in the
"structure" of Kadath and it being a thelemic based hexagram detailing the microcosm and macrocosm dynamic.
This is consistent with what the CU is stated to be in Persona. A
connected network of consciousness,
beyond space and time,
predating humans and
space time itself, which consist of
infinite archetypes, or
pre-mental [2] forms which pervade all consciousness and
allow for the pattern recognition that in turns allow for
"cognition" or understanding one's
senses, thoughts, and feelings which in turn is what gives humans their
subjective reality. Not a concrete
materialistic "real world" of time and space, which is why such
concepts are meaningless to realms lower than Kadath. Which is an abyss unto itself of non existence bar the archetypes who exist there as the bedrock of
realities across all space times as without the existence of the "foundational" archetypes allowing for recognition of boundaries (in the case of Umr's archetype) their can be no boundaries elsewhere.
Similarly in SMT, the Great Reason is conceptualized as a
collective unconscious, or
sentience that created all things by experiencing itself.
All of this being based on Carl Jung's
Unus Mundus model
of everything which literally can describe Persona's cosmology with the 2-A multiverse being represented by the split of physical and psychological with he Unconscious being unbound by and outside of it despite holding it as a segment of itself once actualized, which is the term for cognition manipulation in persona used to turn concepts into reality. Making it the canvas on which all of existence is painted, and the archetypes acting as the paint needed to actualize all of existence.
That's an extremely vague and watered down description of the Adam Kadmon that really doesn't amount to anything. It being described as an "ideal" only amounts to Abstract Existence, if taken literally, and in fact implies that it is not platonic to begin with, as Idealism in the modern sense rejects both the notion that the world is separate from human perception in any way and the existence of abstract objects that exist independently of the mind, which is very much the opposite of Plato's cosmology.
It's watered down sure because it is a paragraph but it's not "vague" and in no way is in reference to modern idealism. It specifically says "
deific form" which denotes Adam Kadmon's existence as the
first archetypal form made in god's image (infinite light after Ein sof contracted his vacuum and after deciding to have intention to create) of existence in Kaballah, predating the Sephirot itself. Adam Kadmon, as noted in the previous link, being
pure potential to evolve into
something whole and perfect, which is an
actual thing mentioned for humanity in persona and why persona users are special, and it also notes Adam Kadmon corresponding to the collective unconscious. Which is then referenced by it being "primordial". The "ideal" here not representing ideals in the sense you brought up but in reference to the "ideal" reality of perfection through in enlightenment, which was possible in Kaballah (to become close to God through knowledge) and represented by Kadmon. Which is why Maruki's treasure is a torch and his actualization of his enlightenment is what allows him to awaken Adam Kadmon, who describes himself as the "
source and destination" and
"the light that will guide mankind". Allusions to the Kaballah's archetypical adam.
The argument for using the Ultimate Gate being built upon the premise that the levels of the unconscious are levels of transcendence just makes it useless as a justification, since it depends on something you haven't proven yet, and bringing it up as part of the core argument just turns the whole thing into circular reasoning because of that. Given what you are saying, I don't know why you even mentioned it in the first place.
I'm not sure why you guys latched onto it as some lynchpin argument. If I am being frank no one has really delved into the evidence and explained why the evidence isn't enough. It's really just been side winding around points by bring up the standards themselves and not really displaying why the actual evidence of this thread doesn't meet said things. The Gate seems to be the one thing that has actually been argued here, and it is being argued for a function it isn't serving.
So I think arguing the actual other points would be a much more efficient use of our time, as the Gate is once again, just the narrative means for displaying the transcendence involved with Kadath.
That doesn't matter. Again, higher-dimensional spaces are useless as reasoning if they don't refer to anything in the cosmology and only act as mathematical models. Unless, of course, you think the existence of ocean waves or dust particles in the air somehow proves that the Real World has infinite dimensions.
Yeh but once again, observation (and by extension cognition) is referenced in game by Stephen to be qualia. The CU being a spare where said "abstractions" actually take form based on the factors of human perception and understanding as stated by Morgana. It is literally the cosmology. I obviously can't pull up a scan of a reference to qualia space as a specific term, so if that's what is explicitly needed I will drop this last point.
