Incorrect. You made several positive counter-claims which is what I responded to. If you wish not to respond to my rebuttal of your points that directly pertain to this thread then I won't bother you anymore. Have a good one.
That still doesn't really matter. Again, the concept itself being used doesn't mean you can pull details from external sources to justify any ratings, especially since, again, those specific statements are not in the verse, even though the ideas which they describe are. We really only concern ourselves with things that are in the text, and everything else is pretty much irrelevant, unless the series is just really extensive in its explanations and quotes all of the relevant paragraphs verbatim, like I said before. Similar arguments were rejected for plenty of other verses, and this case is no different.
Citation needed. The only thing I remember that's anywhere close to an explicit indication of that is Persona 2 making some vague references to the concepts of Maya and Brahman. Everything else just relates to humanity collectively having Subjective Reality, which is very much a staple of Shin Megami Tensei as a whole and not really something that necessarily relates to ontological transcendence. The latter is for you to prove, which you haven't, as far as I see.
Realms being accessible through dreams is not evidence of transcendence on its own. Twin Peaks and Lovecraft are Tier 1 for completely different reasoning, and both of them are cosmologies where transcendental spaces just to happen to be connected to dreams, so all of this is just missing the forest for the trees. Likewise, needing to be enlightened to enter the deeper parts of the Unconscious is also not necessarily evidence for transcendence unless otherwise indicated by the verse, and, so far, you haven't really proven that this is the case.
That's an extremely vague and watered down description of the Adam Kadmon that really doesn't amount to anything. It being described as an "ideal" only amounts to Abstract Existence, if taken literally, and in fact implies that it is not platonic to begin with, as Idealism in the modern sense rejects both the notion that the world is separate from human perception in any way and the existence of abstract objects that exist independently of the mind, which is very much the opposite of Plato's cosmology.
The argument for using the Ultimate Gate being built upon the premise that the levels of the unconscious are levels of transcendence just makes it useless as a justification, since it depends on something you haven't proven yet, and bringing it up as part of the core argument just turns the whole thing into circular reasoning because of that. Given what you are saying, I don't know why you even mentioned it in the first place.
That doesn't matter. Again, higher-dimensional spaces are useless as reasoning if they don't refer to anything in the cosmology and only act as mathematical models. Unless, of course, you think the existence of ocean waves or dust particles in the air somehow proves that the Real World has infinite dimensions.
See above.
See but my thing is I am no adding any new concepts to the lore by digging up the quotes. The archetypes being a transcendental ability to recognize inherent patterns is not something that is devoid from Persona. The quotes add context to the ideas described time and time again in persona. For instance we clearly see a direct reference to the archetypes relationship to synchronicity and constellation. Which was explained by the quote I linked in more detail given the teacher implies it would be too deep to explain to you. But given the explicit nature of the subject matter (Jungian philosophy/psychology) we know exactly what he was referring to by bringing that up. Which is why I believe the quote is usable to expound on topics the game canonized.
Except that I am not arguing solely from the quotes I am using. The quotes are not the lynchpin pieces of evidence. They are clarifiers of the source material. P4 already tells us that the archetypes are the fundamental units of the CU, are infinite, and relate directly to synchronicity and constellation. We have the instances of Umr acting as a concept that can effect all of space and time, and we know the CU predates all life and space/time itself. All of these things are direct attributes of platonic concepts which we already know Jung took major conceptual inspiration from.
Because the archetypes are painted as being of an inaccessible realm from which they dictate lower reality below the threshold that divides them based on qualitative existence. The archetypes also being unbound by spacetime, predating it, and creating it.
I don't believe it's valid to call those "vague", given they explicitly touch upon the cosmology. In Kadath you can either fight the demons that exist there (bar some who just want to fight) or a have a philosophical discussion about the concept they embody. That is how you are awarded the concepts comprising Shiori, the girl you need to save from Persona supplantation.
It's watered down sure because it is a paragraph but it's not "vague" and in no way is in reference to modern idealism. It specifically says "deific form" which denotes Adam Kadmon's existence as the first archetypal form made in god's image (infinite light after Ein sof contracted his vacuum and after deciding to have intention to create) of existence in Kaballah, predating the Sephirot itself. Adam Kadmon, as noted in the previous link, being pure potential to evolve into something whole and perfect, which is an actual thing mentioned for humanity in persona and why persona users are special, and it also notes Adam Kadmon corresponding to the collective unconscious. Which is then referenced by it being "primordial". The "ideal" here not representing ideals in the sense you brought up but in reference to the "ideal" reality of perfection through in enlightenment, which was possible in Kaballah (to become close to God through knowledge) and represented by Kadmon. Which is why Maruki's treasure is a torch and his actualization of his enlightenment is what allows him to awaken Adam Kadmon, who describes himself as the "source and destination" and "the light that will guide mankind". Allusions to the Kaballah's archetypical adam.
I'm not sure why you guys latched onto it as some lynchpin argument. If I am being frank no one has really delved into the evidence and explained why the evidence isn't enough. It's really just been side winding around points by bring up the standards themselves and not really displaying why the actual evidence of this thread doesn't meet said things. The Gate seems to be the one thing that has actually been argued here, and it is being argued for a function it isn't serving.
Yeh but once again, observation (and by extension cognition) is referenced in game by Stephen to be qualia. The CU being a spare where said "abstractions" actually take form based on the factors of human perception and understanding as stated by Morgana. It is literally the cosmology. I obviously can't pull up a scan of a reference to qualia space as a specific term, so if that's what is explicitly needed I will drop this last point.
Erm, the op can't count their own vote, at least I don't think so.
I think likely is more evidenced than possibly since I think there is solid evidence for the tiering but I appreciate your input. I will add your position to my count.
May I ask what you specifically doubt?
The velvet room is an abstract realm that only exists at certain points and whose state is completely dependant on the users subconscious manifestations. When not being materialized in such a way it exist in a state of non existence in an infinite void.
1st bold: The velvet room exists in a void between mind and matter.
This too. It's not only descriptions, the thieves concept was erased from the physical/mental realities and Joker could spawn him and his mates to the Velvet Room. Multiple people have discussed that the feats/descriptions are actually NEP 2, I just don't know enough to say one way or the other.
Memory a bit hazy, so pardon me, but did Yalda specifically delete their concept, or just from history and the memories of people?
Deleting something from the collective beliefs of humankind will lead to their concepts being erased. Not a chain reaction, since the collective unconscious is made of platonic archetypes
Persona already has concept/soul/info/mind manip for their moves, accepted since 2-B stuff. But yeah people didn't have a concept of the thieves until a small portion around them came to after they reclaimed their existence, and this was only due to Mona acting as a light to enlighten humanity.
They were gonna destroy it
For which points
Due to most of what was stated in his last post.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
