Persona General Revisions Thread Part 4 : 1-C (or higher) Upgrade + Cognition/Character ability additions.

[Regidian]

It’s both Type 2 & 4.

With how it's describe it's like a type 4 that work in type 2 scale (so both but just for a part of two)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

With how it's describe it's like a type 4 that work in type 2 scale (so both but just for a part of two)

• All abilities inherent to Personas, Shadows and Deities are forms of Conceptual Manipulation.
  The Collective Unconscious is referred to as a plane of information,despite also being stated to have been created from the psyche of sentient beings, and being composed of basic Jungian archetypes, which are defined as "a collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image,etc., universally present in individual psyches" (i.e. Type 4 concepts). This is further supported by the Collective Unconscious being the source and birthplace of Deities, which are abstract concepts personified.
  Additionally, as displayed most clearly in Persona 5, conscious and unconscious human perceptions shape reality just as much as they do the Collective Unconscious, with human perceptions (Type 4 concepts) affecting and changing reality (Type 2 concepts).
  With this in mind, it is clear that the "information" that the Collective Unconscious is made of refers to the archetypal concepts of the verse. As such, Personas, which are partially composed of information in the same way that Shadows and Deities are,are equated to being partially composed of archetypal concepts. This also lines up with how Personas are merely different aspects of the human mind, which as we've established, is conceptual in nature. Thus, affecting Personas, Shadows and Deities with attacks and ailments, and similarly, defending from such attacks and ailments, would naturally involve forms of, and resistances to Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[Zencha9]

With how it's describe it's like a type 4 that work in type 2 scale (so both but just for a part of two)

it's the other way around since everything in the verse is made up of cognition iirc

 

[Planck69]

It seems to be a Type 2 that can be influenced like a Type 4.

Anyway, NEP (Type 2) looks fine to me.

Why can't one of my fave verses get this cheat?

 

[Regidian]

it's the other way around since everything in the verse is made up of cognition iirc

Being made of cognition actually doesn't change that since basically cognition is mostly based on perception of being just that this perception can change the universe or become universe concept

 

[Antvasima]

Planck69 is usually very reliable, but I prefer to wait for further input from staff members as well.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It seems to be a Type 2 that can be influenced like a Type 4.

Anyway, NEP (Type 2) looks fine to me.

Why can't one of my fave verses get this cheat?

That’s exactly it.

Pro-tip: re/watch/read/play, even if you feel like you’ve gotten absolutely everything. That’s how we got these gargantuan Persona revisions. Joker used to be 7-C, despite the very first Palace containing a moon. Of course, we’ve figured Palace’s are a lot bigger, but you get the point.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Being made of cognition actually doesn't change that since basically cognition is mostly based on perception of being just that this perception can change the universe or become universe concept

It’s Type 2 influenced by Type 4.

 

[Antvasima]

What is Cognition?​

Cognition is the driving force of everything that exists within Persona. Composed of the unconscious and conscious thoughts, everyone possess their own cognitive world - their pheneron and perspective of reality. It has so much influence over reality, that reality is composed of it, and that the real world doesn’t exist - a subjective and overall meaningless term. Philemon, one-half of the Collective Unconscious, states that Cognition created space itself. It’s further elaborated here on why Cognition is accepted as Type 2 conceptual manipulation, as well as Type 4.

​

Why does this matter?​

When one is erased from the Collective Unconscious (a mass of Cognition, the source of reality), their concept begins to fade from memory, and then further, erased from existence. Take note of the fact that when they are erased, the Phantom Thieves are within the Velvet Room, a space between the duality of dream and reality, mind and matter, and has no form, alluding the fact that it doesn’t exist. This is further contextualized by the fact that the mind, and the Velvet Room, are stated to be abstract by Elizabeth, a Velvet Attendant.

Okada alludes to the fact that because Igor, and the Velvet Room, is only accessible in a dream (that only has form based off the residents mental perceptions) - Igor (master of the Velvet Room), and Philemon (creator of the Velvet Room), are fabrications of the protagonist’s abstract mind, and may not exist at all.

• All abilities inherent to Personas, Shadows and Deities are forms of Conceptual Manipulation.
  The Collective Unconscious is referred to as a plane of information,despite also being stated to have been created from the psyche of sentient beings, and being composed of basic Jungian archetypes, which are defined as "a collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image,etc., universally present in individual psyches" (i.e. Type 4 concepts). This is further supported by the Collective Unconscious being the source and birthplace of Deities, which are abstract concepts personified.
  Additionally, as displayed most clearly in Persona 5, conscious and unconscious human perceptions shape reality just as much as they do the Collective Unconscious, with human perceptions (Type 4 concepts) affecting and changing reality (Type 2 concepts).
  With this in mind, it is clear that the "information" that the Collective Unconscious is made of refers to the archetypal concepts of the verse. As such, Personas, which are partially composed of information in the same way that Shadows and Deities are,are equated to being partially composed of archetypal concepts. This also lines up with how Personas are merely different aspects of the human mind, which as we've established, is conceptual in nature. Thus, affecting Personas, Shadows and Deities with attacks and ailments, and similarly, defending from such attacks and ailments, would naturally involve forms of, and resistances to Conceptual Manipulation.

@Dragonmasterxyz @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

 

[Zencha9]

Being made of cognition actually doesn't change that since basically cognition is mostly based on perception of being just that this perception can change the universe or become universe concept

yeah it's a type 2 concept and it's just that it's application varies
anyways it doesn't really matter since in yaldy's case he straight up uses type 2 concept on the real world and erases the phantom thives from people's cognition

 

[Planck69]

To be clear, this NEP Type 2 would be in its own key? Since they aren't like that constantly.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Dragonmasterxyz @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

It was already accepted? Cognition being Type 2 & 4 was been accepted.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

To be clear, this NEP Type 2 would be in its own key? Since they aren't like that constantly.

No, they wouldn’t have NEP at all, since they immediately came back. However, Igor & Philemon are NEP, being completely fabricated. Possibly the Attendants, but it’s a very very strong possibly. Everyone can interact with NEP, though.

 

[Planck69]

No, they wouldn’t have NEP at all, since they immediately came back. However, Igor & Philemon are NEP, being completely fabricated. Possibly the Attendants, but it’s a very very strong possibly. Everyone can interact with NEP, though.

I see. So, High-Godly regeneration for the Phantom Thieves and Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2) for natives of the Velvet Room if I understood this?

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I read, I guess I can buy type 2 NEP for Velvet room and its inhabitants since the evidence suggest they don't seem to exist in cognitions which has all concepts that defines reality and could be made into reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Elizhaa.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Yeh just to add that Persona will be switched to type 1 Concept manip as well once the concept/Transduality/speed stuff goes through.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, that goes without saying since all Type 2 Concept users are switching to Type 1.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Yeh I brought it up because type 2 stuff was being brought up earlier.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Can you explain the transduality and speed stuff, please?

 

[Planck69]

Type 2 and 3 Transduality are getting merged. Type 1 may get deleted but I'm not sure on this.

Irrelevant speed is either leaving or getting revamped.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I mean like the why we have transduality, what type, and who does it scale to.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I mean like the why we have transduality, what type, and who does it scale to.

2/3 as archetypes exist above the distinction of things like one's self, being different from others, and the physical/spiritual split being an illusion. Bare minimum would scale to archetypes and above. Not sure about outside of that, persona users would get the ability to interact with these things though.

 

[Regidian]

2/3 as archetypes exist above the distinction of things like one's self, being different from others, and the physical/spiritual split being an illusion. Bare minimum would scale to archetypes and above. Not sure about outside of that, persona users would get the ability to interact with these things though.

Mmm since it look like transduality type 1 i don't know if the staff thread will help

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Mmm since it look like transduality type 1 i don't know if the staff thread will help

Doubt it would be type one since it would encompass all existence below Kadath.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I see. So, High-Godly regeneration for the Phantom Thieves and Nonexistent Physiology (Type 2) for natives of the Velvet Room if I understood this?

Oh, by the way, High-Godly scales to all Persona-users, see OP.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Wouldn't this give high-godly regen neg to everyone as well? If i recall correctly there's instances of persona users being able to kill eachother, like

Spoiler

Strega in 3

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Wouldn't this give high-godly regen neg to everyone as well? If i recall correctly there's instances of persona users being able to kill eachother, like

Spoiler

Strega in 3

I think it’s a bit more reliable to say they can temporarily put down Demons (P2), especially since Strega were all dying Persona-users, and Takeya killed Junpei when he wasn’t even defending himself.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Dang, Aigis still incons Noel, sad days

6-D Aegis, she kinda beats her up now.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Or I think she is.

 

[deonment]

you cant bypass high godly by being higher d though

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

you cant bypass high godly by being higher d though

Never said that.

 

[Garchomp777]

Rangda and barong endlessly come back even if they die so its type 4 and high godly negation for yaldabaoth and the PT

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

It's already stated they can negate even high godly on the cognition profile, not sure why it isn't there

 

[ImagineBreaker777]

Rangda and barong endlessly come back even if they die so its type 4 and high godly negation for yaldabaoth and the PT

I believe Milly mentioned that revisions for the compendium are currently being worked on, so you should wait till that CRT is made to bring this up.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It's already stated they can negate even high godly on the cognition profile, not sure why it isn't there

Er, where?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Er, where?

Wait, I read it wrong

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Alrighty.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

So is everything settled?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Can somebody make a tally of who have accepted what please?