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Persona General Revisions Thread Part 4 : 1-C (or higher) Upgrade + Cognition/Character ability additions.

HST_Master said:
The Nyx in P1 is a Persona, not the same being as the one in 3. So her spells range would still apply to other Personas.
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Um, yes I'm aware. Not sure where the conclusion that all other Personas would share her range is coming from though?
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
I mean, Ultima said it all. This tries to zig-zag around by saying it doesn't scale to the Mythos because it's not 1-A, but it's still cross-verse scaling to the ideas of the Mythos.

Also, like, no in-verse statements too. Fair to say i disagree.
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This makes sense to me.
 
Right then, asked because i didnt realize until your comment, to what level the EE Myriad of truths had.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
Right then, asked because i didnt realize until your comment, to what level the EE Myriad of truths had.
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It’s above baseline EE, as Gods resist Cognition, which has EE that can erase you conceptually your mind, soul, information, yet Yu erased her. We know concepts like order, law, truth, etc still exist, so the Archetype still exists.
 
Sorry for the wait, was away for the weekend.
Could you explain why these layers would be equated to levels of transcendence, though? Realms that reside deeper into the unconscious being "more abstract" than shallower ones isn't really anything that indicates this, as evidenced by the fact that we don't treat abstract entities as automatically transcendent over concrete entities.
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Sure thing. It's not solely about them being abstract, as the Velvet Room for example is considered a pretty deep realm itself even outside say a palace. That doesn't mean I would scale it to its own level. With Kadath you have the ultimate transcendence of becoming universal archetypes (hence why it is a "divine" realm). The "images" Igor speaks of are primordial and transcendental to all of reality. The form the basis of the existence of the concepts they embody which is wiping out Umr at Tawil would erase all of the boundaries (both literal and figurative) in existence and why it is explained the P2 party could not kill him. He is clearly the conceptual lynchpin of all existence below him (aka everything not named Phil or Nyar) and he exists as a literal conceptual archetype. And the CU itself having existed with its archetypes prior to life or even space itself.

These ideas from Jung are inherently tied into the persona series with archetypes [2] , synchronicity [2], Collective Unconscious beyond space-time, etc are all explained in verse. And not in a meta way, as Carl Jung existed in the Persona world. Not only as a regular person but as someone who Philemon trailed and copied Jung's observations in a tome described as "The door to Eternity" (a reference to Jung's underlying idea about archetypes). Said observations being strong enough to turn humans into legit gods comparable to Philemon himself. Add in the number of databooks that explain Jungian psychology as the basis for the verses origins/mechanics.

As for Philemon's and Nyar's realm it is stated that Kadath is a "level" shallower than Phil/Nyar's indicating superiority, with Phil and Nyar being incarnations of the CU itself, thus existing at the highest level of existence. Further proof was the fact that Nyar and Phil take on avatars in the form of lesser archetypes when in the realm of Kadath, and Phil doesn't even bother materializing to anything more than a butterfly when in lower realms. This was shown with Phil traversing the layers of reality in butterfly form and materializing as himself when in his own realm. So the fact they live in inaccessible space (to the archetypes of Kadath), exist a level higher than Kadath, and interact with lower levels of existence in increasingly less representative forms (at least Phil does) and even lower archetypes, it stands to reason it is qualitatively superior from an ontological sense.




This still wouldn't be allowed if the Ultimate Gate is not described in such terms in the context of Persona. If we are given no descriptions that even remotely resemble the way Lovecraft originally portrayed it, then we may as well just treat it as a barrier separating Kadath from the rest of the Collective Unconscious, especially since this was the basic definition of the Gates in the original mythos, anyway: They were metaphysical barriers separating the physical world from the horrors outside of it, and everything else is just added fluff whose presence is ultimately optional, when it comes to how other verses portray them.
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Yes and given the basis of Persona's own internal cosmology and general verse concept it would fit quite nicely into what I said above, not a 1 to 1 comparison of Lovecraft to Persona, but an in context indicator of the relationship between Kadath and the rest of the CU. Going to Kadath is quite clearly a matter of "qualitative existence" as the means by which one gets there is by themselves, is through a lengthy process of self-realization, which is why persona users can eventually unlock the ability to travel there without an artifact like the silver key, or from the verses gods in Phil/Nyar. This being the whole purpose of Philemon and Nyarlathotep's "experiment" to see if humanity could fulfill their "potential" and reach a perfect state, which persona users like Tatsuya and Co showed promise in achieving, but weren't even close. With Maki sonomura being described as only "halfway there herself".

So I'd say the blatant depiction of Lovecraftian elements intermingled into the story, which when taken with the fact that Persona's verse inherently aligns with the idea of the CU being beyond space and time (and lower realms than Kadath already displaying reality-fiction dynamic and being places where time and space are meaningless), that the Ultimate Gate is clearly not just some arbitrary barrier separating two planes, but a barrier separating a realm of qualitative transcendence over the limits of not only time and space (the physical worlds) but the lower realms of the CU that exist abstractly such as Enlil's or the infinite cognitive worlds. It's inaccessible due to this fact, which is why Tatsuya and Co are stated to potentially be capable of entering one day. Meaning the barrier has less to do with travel or surmounting some obstacle to entrance "physically" rather Tatsuya and co not being "enlightened" enough to enter.

Not to mention that other series with much better allusions than this still don't get this pass: Demonbane outright quotes Through the Gates of the Silver Key when describing its version of Yog-Sothoth, for instance, but we still rate the latter at 2-A because the text itself doesn't make any reference to the relevant bits of the novel that'd make it a higher tier.
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I don't know much about that verse but what separates persona here and my argument is that Persona already has backing evidence for transcendence, and the Ultimate gate being borrowed here is the game's way of explicitly showing this. Not that the Ultimate Gate sharing the name alone, and the blatant Lovecraft crossover stuff being the main piece of evidence in of itself.

It's pretty similar to how in the last thread we used the persona 1 interview quotes as backing evidence for VR being extradimensional, along with a slew of scans acting as the main evidence. Similar deal here.

Likewise, the protagonists being incapable of accessing Kadath is not anything that backs up a level of transcendence, either: From what the scans says, it's really just a matter of it being sealed away by a barrier (In this case, the Ultimate Gate) that prevents any trespass without Nyarlathotep's permission, and being called "divine" doesn't add to anything even when combined with all of the above.
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It does when the only factor separating any odd person from entering is their level of self-realization. The more self-realized a person is in Persona the stronger they are and the closer they are to the "Monad" (which is Kadath Mandala). This is why only self-realized persona users of old could enter by themselves. That sets a clear standard of transcendence required to enter, and Phil/Nyar obviously can let anyone enter as they comprise the CU as archetypes themselves.

I should note that the article you've linked is referring to the space of all conscious experience being represented as a subset of an infinite-dimensional space that exists purely in abstract terms, meaning that it's only a mathematical model that doesn't necessarily impact the actual setting of the verse in any way, so it's pretty much useless.
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From my understanding, the usage of topological vector space to describe the CU (the qualia space where all possible experiences are held) would be similar to other verses getting benefits from things like Hilbert Space being applicable to their cosmology. If that's not the case and a misunderstanding on my part then I'll drop that point.

Even then, you are talking about things that exists entirely outside of the text, and that, as far as I see, the series itself makes absolutely no mention of, which is already grounds for discarding it.
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Qualia is specifically stated to be the underlying concept of observation by Stephen (a traveler of all the megami franchise which I'm sure you are aware of) and cognition is just a reskinning of that concept with Persona being a world that exists in the same timeline as SMT If/Devil Summoner, and it's cosmology being parallel to other SMT games ( essentially saying cognition and observation are pretty much blatantly the same thing) It's also not entirely out of text as Morgana tells us in P5 that human experience is literally what shapes reality . Which is literally saying qualia shapes reality. And we know that in persona this type of reality-warping is "synonymous with space creation".

Heck Philemon even echoes this sentiment but takes it a level deeper than that.

Given the cosmology and its mechanics, I don't think it's a stretch to say the CU is a qualia space made from all possible experiences. With the "abstract space" clearly meaning something in the context of persona where those abstract entities are given form in the CU. Especially when Material existence is just another extension of the CU itself.
 
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Dr._whiteee said:
Sure thing. It's not solely about them being abstract, as the Velvet Room for example is considered a pretty deep realm itself even outside say a palace. That doesn't mean I would scale it to its own level. With Kadath you have the ultimate transcendence of becoming universal archetypes (hence why it is a "divine" realm). The "images" Igor speaks of are primordial and transcendental to all of reality. The form the basis of the existence of the concepts they embody which is wiping out Umr at Tawil would erase all of the boundaries (both literal and figurative) in existence and why it is explained the P2 party could not kill him. He is clearly the conceptual lynchpin of all existence below him (aka everything not named Phil or Nyar) and he exists as a literal conceptual archetype. And the CU itself having existed with its archetypes prior to life or even space itself.
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I take it that the scans in bold aren't from Persona, yes? If that's the case, then they can't be used, unless the series itself just quotes them verbatim, or something along those lines. The basic ideas themselves being used in it doesn't mean every single tiny detail about them is also going to be in place, and that's a standard that applies to every verse: You're going to need far, far stronger evidence than "Jung existed in the verse and his observations about the unconscious were true" to cross-scale like that.

Dr._whiteee said:
As for Philemon's and Nyar's realm it is stated that Kadath is a "level" shallower than Phil/Nyar's indicating superiority, with Phil and Nyar being incarnations of the CU itsel
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That doesn't really address the issue. The Collective Unconscious having levels and those levels being qualitatively superior are entirely separate matters, and the former certainly does not imply the latter by necessity. You need evidence that a difference in size (Most specifically an uncountably infinite one, or something that can be reasonably equated to it) is at place here, and so far the evidence you gave is quite weak. Even putting aside what I addressed in the answer above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep having avatars doesn't really indicate they are transcendent over these locations, especially with how much the applications of this term vary across fiction, and how it can range from "Create a body for oneself while your main one is in another location" to "Create a manifestation of yourself in a lower world that is too infinitesimal to contain you." Not all cases are like the latter, and we don't automatically assume they are unless explicit evidence is given.

Dr._whiteee said:
Yes and given the basis of Persona's own internal cosmology and general verse concept it would fit quite nicely into what I said above, not a 1 to 1 comparison of Lovecraft to Persona, but an in context indicator of the relationship between Kadath and the rest of the CU. Going to Kadath is quite clearly a matter of "qualitative existence" as the means by which one gets there is by themselves, is through a lengthy process of self-realization, which is why persona users can eventually unlock the ability to travel there without an artifact like the silver key, or from the verses gods in Phil/Nyar. This being the whole purpose of Philemon and Nyarlathotep's "experiment" to see if humanity could fulfill their "potential" and reach a perfect state, which persona users like Tatsuya and Co showed promise in achieving, but weren't even close. With Maki sonomura being described as only "halfway there herself".
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That just sounds like the Ultimate Gate itself is metaphysical in nature and only able to be passed through by undergoing some process of enlightenment, which does make sense, given how they are already in a world of the mind and not a physical sphere, at this stage. Still, the question is: Why would this equate to a level of transcendence?

Dr._whiteee said:
So I'd say the blatant depiction of Lovecraftian elements intermingled into the story, which when taken with the fact that Persona's verse inherently aligns with the idea of the CU being beyond space and time
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And none of those elements are anything that supports cross-scaling between Persona and the Mythos' concepts. Again, a concept from an external source showing up in another verse does not necessarily mean that every single tiny detail about it is in place, and the series would need to quote the relevant passages verbatim from the source material for you to even think about doing that. Persona having vaguely similar concepts doesn't mean you should try to create an exact equivalence between those and things that aren't even in the text, and, if anything, means you should stick to what the verse mentions, since those things are apparently similar enough to the source material to be compared to it..

Dr._whiteee said:
From my understanding, the usage of topological vector space to describe the CU (the qualia space where all possible experiences are held) would be similar to other verses getting benefits from things like Hilbert Space being applicable to their cosmology. If that's not the case and a misunderstanding on my part then I'll drop that point.
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That depends on a lot of factors, though the most important one is whether it's even part of the cosmology, to begin with. Higher-dimensional spaces are ultimately just sets that take into account a given number of variables, and said variables can be used to model pretty much anything: You can make a phase space where each dimension corresponds to the trajectory of a particle of dust spreading in the air, for instance, but this obviously remains as just a mathematical setting that doesn't affect or tangibly correspond to anything in reality.

The same thing applies to Hilbert Spaces: Infinite-dimensional cases of those are often found in quantum mechanics because the set of all possible states of a given system results in one, but, again, this is just a mathematical model that doesn't necessarily correspond to anything in reality, so it's not applicable in every case. That's why not every verse where the Many-Worlds Interpretation is a thing is High 1-B to Low 1-A, for instance.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I take it that the scans in bold aren't from Persona, yes? If that's the case, then they can't be used, unless the series itself just quotes them verbatim, or something along those lines. The basic ideas themselves being used in it doesn't mean every single tiny detail about them is also going to be in place, and that's a standard that applies to every verse: You're going to need far, far stronger evidence than "Jung existed in the verse and his observations about the unconscious were true" to cross-scale like that.
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Nah they are from Jung and his authoritative colleague from a comprehensive study on archetypes.

I disagree for a couple of reasons.
In this case it is literally the concept itself that is being used. Archetypes are what drive cognition [2] and give human beings the power to bend reality via perception. P4 goes out of its way to explain this and they fulfill the same position they do in Jung's paradigm. I also posted the note on synchronicity where the P4 professor explains (in much simpler terms) synchronicity and ties it into "constellations" with the second piece of evidence in brackets showing exactly what persona was specifically referencing. Here it is again. I also posted the eternity scan which aligned directly with the view of the archetype which suffices more than "Carl Jung being a person in Persona.". He very clearly described reality enough to make an artifact granting god power. The sections that line up from source material to actual Carl Jung teachings are descriptive and functional in nature which should be more than enough, along with the general premise of Kadath being a world similar to the forms of Plato. This is why I also brought up the CU predating humans and space-time (primordial/ a priori) and the usage of Umr and his conceptual lynchpin status as the embodiment of boundaries and all of existence being affected by consequences to him.

So it's not just a passing reference. The whole idea of the CU is based deeply in Jung's cosmological model of the Unus Mundus and this is bled into the inherent cosmology of both SMT and Persona.
Ultima_Reality said:
That doesn't really address the issue. The Collective Unconscious having levels and those levels being qualitatively superior are entirely separate matters, and the former certainly does not imply the latter by necessity. You need evidence that a difference in size (Most specifically an uncountably infinite one, or something that can be reasonably equated to it) is at place here, and so far the evidence you gave is quite weak. Even putting aside what I addressed in the answer above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep having avatars doesn't really indicate they are transcendent over these locations, especially with how much the applications of this term vary across fiction, and how it can range from "Create a body for oneself while your main one is in another location" to "Create a manifestation of yourself in a lower world that is too infinitesimal to contain you." Not all cases are like the latter, and we don't automatically assume they are unless explicit evidence is given.
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I explained why the levels indicate superiority. This is why I asked about the Sonic thread which did not have such a factor indicating it. It was a pure qualitative leap. Given that Phil and Nyar inhabit an infinite void atop another void, which potentially has its own infinite voids, and Phil/Nyar comprise the CU itself, I don't think it's unfair to posit their avatars, and forming as lower archetypes completely, is not indicative of some form of transcendence. I mean the fact that they transcend such concepts in their true archetypal form of the CU, and said concepts dictate all reality below it should be enough to highlight this point.
Ultima_Reality said:
That just sounds like the Ultimate Gate itself is metaphysical in nature and only able to be passed through by undergoing some process of enlightenment, which does make sense, given how they are already in a world of the mind and not a physical sphere, at this stage. Still, the question is: Why would this equate to a level of transcendence?
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Because the physical reality is a literal illusion. This is covered by both Philemon and Morgana. The true world is the worlds of the archetypes which humans manifest in different ways. Without archetypes you can't have understanding, without understanding you can't have cognition. Humans gain the power to recognize patterns because of the archetypes (forms) being present in their psyche a priori. This is what allows them to use cognition and change reality.

Even enter a realm like Velvet Room with a physical form is dangerous and requires willpower to allow such a contradiction. This is next level, concepts that underlie the fabric of reality, and the gate is the barrier between those concepts (forms) and the lower reality. Only beings with cognition can utilize the power of the archetypes which is why humans are so important in SMT games.

The transcendence comes from being realized enough that you can enter the Kadath via your dreams. I've seen similar things utilized in a couple of other 1A verses such as Twin Peaks and I'm pretty sure some Lovecraft stuff. In order to access the deepest part of the Unconscious one has the be realized enough. Which is what is corroborated by Philemon stating humans would reach a perfect state if more of them were woke enough to get power ups like Persona's (aka self realized people).

Takuto Maruki from Persona 5 actually reaches this point and awakens Adam Kadmon, the archetype (which is blatantly being platonic in language) of this idea Philemon spoke of.


I haven't really seen an actual argument refuting the archetypes being platonic in nature as shown in game and by corroborated philosophy from the source.
Ultima_Reality said:
And none of those elements are anything that supports cross-scaling between Persona and the Mythos' concepts. Again, a concept from an external source showing up in another verse does not necessarily mean that every single tiny detail about it is in place,
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I never said it was every single detail though. I simply stated that the gate is clearly being depicted as similar in function to the one in Cthulu mythos. Both are gates leading from one side of reality to a much more unbounded one, one typically unbounded by space and time. Past that I am not taking anything from Cthulu mythos and have used strictly Persona stuff to conclude the tiering.

Ultima_Reality said:
and the series would need to quote the relevant passages verbatim from the source material for you to even think about doing that. Persona having vaguely similar concepts doesn't mean you should try to create an exact equivalence between those and things that aren't even in the text, and, if anything, means you should stick to what the verse mentions, since those things are apparently similar enough to the source material to be compared to it..
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I am though. This is not the lynchpin of my argument and this point is kind of being magnified similar to the Twin peaks and Velvet Room stuff of last thread. I explained why I believe Persona to be 1-C through 1-A, and never brought up Chtulu scaling directly. Me saying the gate in function is the same is inconsequential to the actual stat that comes after it. The ultimate Gate is clearly a narrative tool that Persona is lending from Cthulu mythos, and they go through quite great lengths to demonstrate this. I think writing the line about a random demon remembering Carter from 25k+ days ago and that aligning to when Carter disappeared in 1928, the fact that they wrote in Randolph Carter's quests in the KAdath literature and him inhabiting an alien, having Phil represent Nodens in Kadath while Nyar is represented by his faceless avatar, etc. I really don't think it's controversial to use the narrative argument here.


That depends on a lot of factors, though the most important one is whether it's even part of the cosmology, to begin with. Higher-dimensional spaces are ultimately just sets that take into account a given number of variables, and said variables can be used to model pretty much anything: You can make a phase space where each dimension corresponds to the trajectory of a particle of dust spreading in the air, for instance, but this obviously remains as just a mathematical setting that doesn't affect or tangibly correspond to anything in reality.
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I understand but I did show you that qualia by definition is what shapes Persona's reality, and that this is comparable to space creation and this can be extended even to AI not just humans.

The same thing applies to Hilbert Spaces: Infinite-dimensional cases of those are often found in quantum mechanics because the set of all possible states of a given system results in one, but, again, this is just a mathematical model that doesn't necessarily correspond to anything in reality, so it's not applicable in every case. That's why not every verse where the Many-Worlds Interpretation is a thing is High 1-B to Low 1-A, for instance.
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So what exactly would be the case for such things to be applicable? Because Persona has many worlds as the basis of its universe as well, with the addition of cognitive worlds in addition to physical structures.
 
Platonic concepts do exist in persona and they act like true platonic concepts so I'd say persona characters really are 1-A, I mean the whole story is about them

But I agree with this. The scan for futaba hacking velvet room is broken
 
Just being called Platonic Concepts isn't enough for 1-A. The very idea that it's being entertained is laughable.
 
Planck69 said:
Just being called Platonic Concepts isn't enough for 1-A. The very idea that it's being entertained is laughable.
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You don't know much about them, and in personas case, they do act like how they're supposed to be so its very likely that they're true platonic concepts
 
Garchomp777 said:
You don't know much about them, and in personas case, they do act like how they're supposed to be so its very likely that they're true platonic concepts
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I'm pretty sure "True platonic concepts" aren't even 1-A anymore.
 
They aren't. The change is just pending application.
 
Hard agreement with Ultima here and I'm glad the Jung stuff is finally being addressed. This has been my main issue with the current Persona profiles for a while and it's only for the fact that I wasn't sure how heavily the current ratings relied on it that I never felt rushed to address it before now.

Persona being simply "based on Jung's model" is not enough to directly take everything from it and apply it to the verse. It's simply an inspiration for the terminology and other such ideas being used in Persona and nothing deeper than that. Jung's stuff isn't even brought up in any noticeable capacity during the actual events of the game (P4) and the majority of stuff being argued for comes from Persona 4 Golden's Mr. Edogawa's TV Classroom, bonus content which is accessed from out of game and is there simply to explain Jungian Psychology to the player. It never attempts to equate the terminology being used to the concepts in-game and as far as I'm aware hasn't been brought up since. Even if we for some reason assume this lecture actually takes place in the game's canon, Mr. Edogawa is about the farthest you could get from being a reliable source on the verse's cosmology. The dude doesn't even know Personas and Shadows exist as they do in the game's world.
 
Edwellken said:
Hard agreement with Ultima here and I'm glad the Jung stuff is finally being addressed. This has been my main issue with the current Persona profiles for a while and it's only for the fact that I wasn't sure how heavily the current ratings relied on it that I never felt rushed to address it before now.

Persona being simply "based on Jung's model" is not enough to directly take everything from it and apply it to the verse. It's simply an inspiration for the terminology and other such ideas being used in Persona and nothing deeper than that. Jung's stuff isn't even brought up in any noticeable capacity during the actual events of the game (P4) and the majority of stuff being argued for comes from Persona 4 Golden's Mr. Edogawa's TV Classroom, bonus content which is accessed from out of game and is there simply to explain Jungian Psychology to the player. It never attempts to equate the terminology being used to the concepts in-game and as far as I'm aware hasn't been brought up since. Even if we for some reason assume this lecture actually takes place in the game's canon, Mr. Edogawa is about the farthest you could get from being a reliable source on the verse's cosmology. The dude doesn't even know Personas and Shadows exist as they do in the game's world.
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This is absolutely false and completely dishonest to what has been said.

Izanami specifically refers to the CU as the realm of human consciousness, and Izanami, like all Gods, is born from the Collective Unconscious, created by human minds to defend against Nyx’s psyche. The Persona 4 Guidebook is a canon guidebook written from the perspective of in-game characters to make it more digestible to players. This is the exact same thing they did in Persona 3, despite Itsuki being dead, yet somehow knowing Nyx. That’s completely false too, as Edogawa is an occultist with a clear interest and knowledge of the supernatural, so saying things like that are completely untrue.

Itsuki outright calls it the collective unconscious, Yaldabaoth says he comes from the sea of the unconscious, Enlil’s theater is said to come from the sea of the unconscious, it’s literally everywhere, far from just an inspiration. It’s not like what Edogawa said was contradicted by in-game feats, the CU connects all time-space, and transcends it as proven by Enlil’s theater, the very existence of PQ/2 despite Persona being a singular timeline, Other Side Tatsuya being connected to his friends despite not even knowing them, and so on, so forth.

Even if you removed Edogawa entirely, there are a plethora of sources. Igor, Morgana, Philemon, Elizabeth, literally Kaneko himself in P2. They can literally attest to all of this and confirm the existence of its comparisons. I, frankly, do not care about 1-C (and a part of me is actually against it), but blatant misinformation, and arguing themes that are clearly present in every, single, game since Revelations: Persona is something I will not stand for.
 
Nothing I said had anything to do with the guidebooks? Never knew that "being an occultist" meant you automatically know all the ins and outs of your verse though.

Collective Unconscious is an extremely common term in fiction. It being used here doesn't really mean anything.

If there are other sources that can be used, great. My only issue here is Edogawa's stuff from the TV Classroom specifically. Don't really care about the rest atm.
 
Edwellken said:
Nothing I said had anything to do with the guidebooks? Never knew that "being an occultist" meant you automatically know all the ins and outs of your verse though.
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Dude, Mr. Edogawa’s TV Classroom is a guidebook, it’s the exact format as the previous one. I never said that, but it’s not like Edogawa is some crazy man. Hell, he even mentions the existence of the Arcana. It’s not like it’s new for regular humans to know about the in-verse mechanics, Wabaka Isshiki is one of them.


Edwellken said:
Collective Unconscious is an extremely common term in fiction. It being used here doesn't really mean anything.
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It is, I’m saying Persona is constantly drawing references to it, in-game, and feat wise.
 
I'm starting to become more concerned with what basis we have to be using other such sources at all if this counts as one of them.

Wakaba was directly shown in-universe to have knowledge of cognition in the verse's context and was directly involved with it as part of the game's plot. Edogawa hasn't. Persona, Arcana, etc are terms any occultist would know even in the real world. It's not impossible for him to be aware of in-verse mechanics, he just hasn't shown any indication that he would be.

Milly_Rocking_Bandit said:
It is, I’m saying Persona is constantly drawing references to it, in-game, and feat wise.
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I mean, okay? I'm not arguing that the CU doesn't exist in Persona. Persona just has its own CU with its own mechanics.
 
In any case, I don't have the time or energy to argue about this all day. As far as it applies to this thread I agree with Ultima for the reasons I already stated. I'd rather not derail beyond that point with my own additional grievances. Let's just tackle one issue at a time.
 
Edwellken said:
Persona being simply "based on Jung's model" is not enough to directly take everything from it and apply it to the verse. It's simply an inspiration for the terminology and other such ideas being used in Persona and nothing deeper than that.
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Citation. You're gonna have to back this up and it's also blatantly incorrect. But I'll wait for you to actually substantiate this claim before taking anything further.

Edwellken said:
Jung's stuff isn't even brought up in any noticeable capacity during the actual events of the game (P4)
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Go ahead and prove this because this is another blatant lie. The whole game is literally founded on Jung's ideas of concepts having an effect over reality. Unless you want to explain to me how cognition works not using the already established mechanics in verse based on his writings. Like this is literally the basis for every game.

This is honestly baffling to see as a counterargument.
Edwellken said:
and the majority of stuff being argued for comes from Persona 4 Golden's Mr. Edogawa's TV Classroom, bonus content which is accessed from out of game and is there simply to explain Jungian Psychology to the player.
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Nope, once again incorrect.
A.) It being extra material means absolutely nothing. Not sure why this was brought up as a point.
B.) It being a meta explanation to the player has nothing to do with the fact that the reason for bringing it up and giving an in depth explanation on his ideas is to explicitly tie it together to the concepts (shadows, archetypes, etc) that exists in the game. Furthermore, it's actually not addressing the player but it is an inverse explanation to Yu himself from the occultist. So in verse it is not some 4th wall breaking thing, it's literally him teaching Yu about the Carl Jung from the persona verse (which is the same as ours barring the obvious mystical adventures.)

Edwellken said:
It never attempts to equate the terminology being used to the concepts in-game
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Citation needed. I've literally posted dozens of scans proving this wrong, so you should probably explicitly address said scans and explain why they back up this quoted argument because there is literally no substantiation here.

and as far as I'm aware hasn't been brought up since.
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It's literally the bedrock for the whole game and the reason why people get powers and subjective reality is a thing in the game. With Persona 5 giving the most blatant explanation of this at the end of the game. So I'm not really sure how you'd possibly make this claim while also claiming to know much about Persona.

Even if we for some reason assume this lecture actually takes place in the game's canon,
Click to expand...
Which it does.

Mr. Edogawa is about the farthest you could get from being a reliable source on the verse's cosmology. The dude doesn't even know Personas and Shadows exist as they do in the game's world.
Click to expand...
Annnnnd once again you'd be wrong and are literally making up points. Edogawa is specifically stated to be an expert occultist who knows exactly what he is talking about. He is not some random teacher bullshitting from a textbook. He is literally explaining the verses mechanics, which is exactly what was found in Persona 3's guidebook.
 
The number of times you asked me to prove a negative in just a single post is astounding. The burden of proof isn't on me here.

I'm not going to go digging through "dozens of scans" among idek how many threads. If I'm wrong provide a counter. I don't have anything to prove here.

I've already made my stance on the upgrade very clear. If you want to discuss this further take it to the wall man I'm done here.
 
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