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This. It just doesn't add anything.Can we please come to our own conclusions without using Ultima is a lynchpin
Um, yes I'm aware. Not sure where the conclusion that all other Personas would share her range is coming from though?The Nyx in P1 is a Persona, not the same being as the one in 3. So her spells range would still apply to other Personas.
This makes sense to me.I mean, Ultima said it all. This tries to zig-zag around by saying it doesn't scale to the Mythos because it's not 1-A, but it's still cross-verse scaling to the ideas of the Mythos.
Also, like, no in-verse statements too. Fair to say i disagree.
No, he only EE’d her avatar, the Archetype still exists, which is what she fuses with.Myriads of truth having EE wouldnt contradict this ?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/721169062482280448/821124622337966110/unknown.png
Considering how EE works, Izanami getting EEd avoids Izanami fusing with Marie.
It’s above baseline EE, as Gods resist Cognition, which has EE that can erase you conceptually your mind, soul, information, yet Yu erased her. We know concepts like order, law, truth, etc still exist, so the Archetype still exists.Right then, asked because i didnt realize until your comment, to what level the EE Myriad of truths had.
Sure thing. It's not solely about them being abstract, as the Velvet Room for example is considered a pretty deep realm itself even outside say a palace. That doesn't mean I would scale it to its own level. With Kadath you have the ultimate transcendence of becoming universal archetypes (hence why it is a "divine" realm). The "images" Igor speaks of are primordial and transcendental to all of reality. The form the basis of the existence of the concepts they embody which is wiping out Umr at Tawil would erase all of the boundaries (both literal and figurative) in existence and why it is explained the P2 party could not kill him. He is clearly the conceptual lynchpin of all existence below him (aka everything not named Phil or Nyar) and he exists as a literal conceptual archetype. And the CU itself having existed with its archetypes prior to life or even space itself.Could you explain why these layers would be equated to levels of transcendence, though? Realms that reside deeper into the unconscious being "more abstract" than shallower ones isn't really anything that indicates this, as evidenced by the fact that we don't treat abstract entities as automatically transcendent over concrete entities.
Yes and given the basis of Persona's own internal cosmology and general verse concept it would fit quite nicely into what I said above, not a 1 to 1 comparison of Lovecraft to Persona, but an in context indicator of the relationship between Kadath and the rest of the CU. Going to Kadath is quite clearly a matter of "qualitative existence" as the means by which one gets there is by themselves, is through a lengthy process of self-realization, which is why persona users can eventually unlock the ability to travel there without an artifact like the silver key, or from the verses gods in Phil/Nyar. This being the whole purpose of Philemon and Nyarlathotep's "experiment" to see if humanity could fulfill their "potential" and reach a perfect state, which persona users like Tatsuya and Co showed promise in achieving, but weren't even close. With Maki sonomura being described as only "halfway there herself".This still wouldn't be allowed if the Ultimate Gate is not described in such terms in the context of Persona. If we are given no descriptions that even remotely resemble the way Lovecraft originally portrayed it, then we may as well just treat it as a barrier separating Kadath from the rest of the Collective Unconscious, especially since this was the basic definition of the Gates in the original mythos, anyway: They were metaphysical barriers separating the physical world from the horrors outside of it, and everything else is just added fluff whose presence is ultimately optional, when it comes to how other verses portray them.
I don't know much about that verse but what separates persona here and my argument is that Persona already has backing evidence for transcendence, and the Ultimate gate being borrowed here is the game's way of explicitly showing this. Not that the Ultimate Gate sharing the name alone, and the blatant Lovecraft crossover stuff being the main piece of evidence in of itself.Not to mention that other series with much better allusions than this still don't get this pass: Demonbane outright quotes Through the Gates of the Silver Key when describing its version of Yog-Sothoth, for instance, but we still rate the latter at 2-A because the text itself doesn't make any reference to the relevant bits of the novel that'd make it a higher tier.
It does when the only factor separating any odd person from entering is their level of self-realization. The more self-realized a person is in Persona the stronger they are and the closer they are to the "Monad" (which is Kadath Mandala). This is why only self-realized persona users of old could enter by themselves. That sets a clear standard of transcendence required to enter, and Phil/Nyar obviously can let anyone enter as they comprise the CU as archetypes themselves.Likewise, the protagonists being incapable of accessing Kadath is not anything that backs up a level of transcendence, either: From what the scans says, it's really just a matter of it being sealed away by a barrier (In this case, the Ultimate Gate) that prevents any trespass without Nyarlathotep's permission, and being called "divine" doesn't add to anything even when combined with all of the above.
From my understanding, the usage of topological vector space to describe the CU (the qualia space where all possible experiences are held) would be similar to other verses getting benefits from things like Hilbert Space being applicable to their cosmology. If that's not the case and a misunderstanding on my part then I'll drop that point.I should note that the article you've linked is referring to the space of all conscious experience being represented as a subset of an infinite-dimensional space that exists purely in abstract terms, meaning that it's only a mathematical model that doesn't necessarily impact the actual setting of the verse in any way, so it's pretty much useless.
Qualia is specifically stated to be the underlying concept of observation by Stephen (a traveler of all the megami franchise which I'm sure you are aware of) and cognition is just a reskinning of that concept with Persona being a world that exists in the same timeline as SMT If/Devil Summoner, and it's cosmology being parallel to other SMT games ( essentially saying cognition and observation are pretty much blatantly the same thing) It's also not entirely out of text as Morgana tells us in P5 that human experience is literally what shapes reality . Which is literally saying qualia shapes reality. And we know that in persona this type of reality-warping is "synonymous with space creation".Even then, you are talking about things that exists entirely outside of the text, and that, as far as I see, the series itself makes absolutely no mention of, which is already grounds for discarding it.
I take it that the scans in bold aren't from Persona, yes? If that's the case, then they can't be used, unless the series itself just quotes them verbatim, or something along those lines. The basic ideas themselves being used in it doesn't mean every single tiny detail about them is also going to be in place, and that's a standard that applies to every verse: You're going to need far, far stronger evidence than "Jung existed in the verse and his observations about the unconscious were true" to cross-scale like that.Sure thing. It's not solely about them being abstract, as the Velvet Room for example is considered a pretty deep realm itself even outside say a palace. That doesn't mean I would scale it to its own level. With Kadath you have the ultimate transcendence of becoming universal archetypes (hence why it is a "divine" realm). The "images" Igor speaks of are primordial and transcendental to all of reality. The form the basis of the existence of the concepts they embody which is wiping out Umr at Tawil would erase all of the boundaries (both literal and figurative) in existence and why it is explained the P2 party could not kill him. He is clearly the conceptual lynchpin of all existence below him (aka everything not named Phil or Nyar) and he exists as a literal conceptual archetype. And the CU itself having existed with its archetypes prior to life or even space itself.
That doesn't really address the issue. The Collective Unconscious having levels and those levels being qualitatively superior are entirely separate matters, and the former certainly does not imply the latter by necessity. You need evidence that a difference in size (Most specifically an uncountably infinite one, or something that can be reasonably equated to it) is at place here, and so far the evidence you gave is quite weak. Even putting aside what I addressed in the answer above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep having avatars doesn't really indicate they are transcendent over these locations, especially with how much the applications of this term vary across fiction, and how it can range from "Create a body for oneself while your main one is in another location" to "Create a manifestation of yourself in a lower world that is too infinitesimal to contain you." Not all cases are like the latter, and we don't automatically assume they are unless explicit evidence is given.As for Philemon's and Nyar's realm it is stated that Kadath is a "level" shallower than Phil/Nyar's indicating superiority, with Phil and Nyar being incarnations of the CU itsel
That just sounds like the Ultimate Gate itself is metaphysical in nature and only able to be passed through by undergoing some process of enlightenment, which does make sense, given how they are already in a world of the mind and not a physical sphere, at this stage. Still, the question is: Why would this equate to a level of transcendence?Yes and given the basis of Persona's own internal cosmology and general verse concept it would fit quite nicely into what I said above, not a 1 to 1 comparison of Lovecraft to Persona, but an in context indicator of the relationship between Kadath and the rest of the CU. Going to Kadath is quite clearly a matter of "qualitative existence" as the means by which one gets there is by themselves, is through a lengthy process of self-realization, which is why persona users can eventually unlock the ability to travel there without an artifact like the silver key, or from the verses gods in Phil/Nyar. This being the whole purpose of Philemon and Nyarlathotep's "experiment" to see if humanity could fulfill their "potential" and reach a perfect state, which persona users like Tatsuya and Co showed promise in achieving, but weren't even close. With Maki sonomura being described as only "halfway there herself".
And none of those elements are anything that supports cross-scaling between Persona and the Mythos' concepts. Again, a concept from an external source showing up in another verse does not necessarily mean that every single tiny detail about it is in place, and the series would need to quote the relevant passages verbatim from the source material for you to even think about doing that. Persona having vaguely similar concepts doesn't mean you should try to create an exact equivalence between those and things that aren't even in the text, and, if anything, means you should stick to what the verse mentions, since those things are apparently similar enough to the source material to be compared to it..So I'd say the blatant depiction of Lovecraftian elements intermingled into the story, which when taken with the fact that Persona's verse inherently aligns with the idea of the CU being beyond space and time
That depends on a lot of factors, though the most important one is whether it's even part of the cosmology, to begin with. Higher-dimensional spaces are ultimately just sets that take into account a given number of variables, and said variables can be used to model pretty much anything: You can make a phase space where each dimension corresponds to the trajectory of a particle of dust spreading in the air, for instance, but this obviously remains as just a mathematical setting that doesn't affect or tangibly correspond to anything in reality.From my understanding, the usage of topological vector space to describe the CU (the qualia space where all possible experiences are held) would be similar to other verses getting benefits from things like Hilbert Space being applicable to their cosmology. If that's not the case and a misunderstanding on my part then I'll drop that point.
Nah they are from Jung and his authoritative colleague from a comprehensive study on archetypes.I take it that the scans in bold aren't from Persona, yes? If that's the case, then they can't be used, unless the series itself just quotes them verbatim, or something along those lines. The basic ideas themselves being used in it doesn't mean every single tiny detail about them is also going to be in place, and that's a standard that applies to every verse: You're going to need far, far stronger evidence than "Jung existed in the verse and his observations about the unconscious were true" to cross-scale like that.
I explained why the levels indicate superiority. This is why I asked about the Sonic thread which did not have such a factor indicating it. It was a pure qualitative leap. Given that Phil and Nyar inhabit an infinite void atop another void, which potentially has its own infinite voids, and Phil/Nyar comprise the CU itself, I don't think it's unfair to posit their avatars, and forming as lower archetypes completely, is not indicative of some form of transcendence. I mean the fact that they transcend such concepts in their true archetypal form of the CU, and said concepts dictate all reality below it should be enough to highlight this point.That doesn't really address the issue. The Collective Unconscious having levels and those levels being qualitatively superior are entirely separate matters, and the former certainly does not imply the latter by necessity. You need evidence that a difference in size (Most specifically an uncountably infinite one, or something that can be reasonably equated to it) is at place here, and so far the evidence you gave is quite weak. Even putting aside what I addressed in the answer above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep having avatars doesn't really indicate they are transcendent over these locations, especially with how much the applications of this term vary across fiction, and how it can range from "Create a body for oneself while your main one is in another location" to "Create a manifestation of yourself in a lower world that is too infinitesimal to contain you." Not all cases are like the latter, and we don't automatically assume they are unless explicit evidence is given.
Because the physical reality is a literal illusion. This is covered by both Philemon and Morgana. The true world is the worlds of the archetypes which humans manifest in different ways. Without archetypes you can't have understanding, without understanding you can't have cognition. Humans gain the power to recognize patterns because of the archetypes (forms) being present in their psyche a priori. This is what allows them to use cognition and change reality.That just sounds like the Ultimate Gate itself is metaphysical in nature and only able to be passed through by undergoing some process of enlightenment, which does make sense, given how they are already in a world of the mind and not a physical sphere, at this stage. Still, the question is: Why would this equate to a level of transcendence?
I never said it was every single detail though. I simply stated that the gate is clearly being depicted as similar in function to the one in Cthulu mythos. Both are gates leading from one side of reality to a much more unbounded one, one typically unbounded by space and time. Past that I am not taking anything from Cthulu mythos and have used strictly Persona stuff to conclude the tiering.And none of those elements are anything that supports cross-scaling between Persona and the Mythos' concepts. Again, a concept from an external source showing up in another verse does not necessarily mean that every single tiny detail about it is in place,
I am though. This is not the lynchpin of my argument and this point is kind of being magnified similar to the Twin peaks and Velvet Room stuff of last thread. I explained why I believe Persona to be 1-C through 1-A, and never brought up Chtulu scaling directly. Me saying the gate in function is the same is inconsequential to the actual stat that comes after it. The ultimate Gate is clearly a narrative tool that Persona is lending from Cthulu mythos, and they go through quite great lengths to demonstrate this. I think writing the line about a random demon remembering Carter from 25k+ days ago and that aligning to when Carter disappeared in 1928, the fact that they wrote in Randolph Carter's quests in the KAdath literature and him inhabiting an alien, having Phil represent Nodens in Kadath while Nyar is represented by his faceless avatar, etc. I really don't think it's controversial to use the narrative argument here.and the series would need to quote the relevant passages verbatim from the source material for you to even think about doing that. Persona having vaguely similar concepts doesn't mean you should try to create an exact equivalence between those and things that aren't even in the text, and, if anything, means you should stick to what the verse mentions, since those things are apparently similar enough to the source material to be compared to it..
I understand but I did show you that qualia by definition is what shapes Persona's reality, and that this is comparable to space creation and this can be extended even to AI not just humans.That depends on a lot of factors, though the most important one is whether it's even part of the cosmology, to begin with. Higher-dimensional spaces are ultimately just sets that take into account a given number of variables, and said variables can be used to model pretty much anything: You can make a phase space where each dimension corresponds to the trajectory of a particle of dust spreading in the air, for instance, but this obviously remains as just a mathematical setting that doesn't affect or tangibly correspond to anything in reality.
So what exactly would be the case for such things to be applicable? Because Persona has many worlds as the basis of its universe as well, with the addition of cognitive worlds in addition to physical structures.The same thing applies to Hilbert Spaces: Infinite-dimensional cases of those are often found in quantum mechanics because the set of all possible states of a given system results in one, but, again, this is just a mathematical model that doesn't necessarily correspond to anything in reality, so it's not applicable in every case. That's why not every verse where the Many-Worlds Interpretation is a thing is High 1-B to Low 1-A, for instance.
You don't know much about them, and in personas case, they do act like how they're supposed to be so its very likely that they're true platonic conceptsJust being called Platonic Concepts isn't enough for 1-A. The very idea that it's being entertained is laughable.
I'm pretty sure "True platonic concepts" aren't even 1-A anymore.You don't know much about them, and in personas case, they do act like how they're supposed to be so its very likely that they're true platonic concepts
This is absolutely false and completely dishonest to what has been said.Hard agreement with Ultima here and I'm glad the Jung stuff is finally being addressed. This has been my main issue with the current Persona profiles for a while and it's only for the fact that I wasn't sure how heavily the current ratings relied on it that I never felt rushed to address it before now.
Persona being simply "based on Jung's model" is not enough to directly take everything from it and apply it to the verse. It's simply an inspiration for the terminology and other such ideas being used in Persona and nothing deeper than that. Jung's stuff isn't even brought up in any noticeable capacity during the actual events of the game (P4) and the majority of stuff being argued for comes from Persona 4 Golden's Mr. Edogawa's TV Classroom, bonus content which is accessed from out of game and is there simply to explain Jungian Psychology to the player. It never attempts to equate the terminology being used to the concepts in-game and as far as I'm aware hasn't been brought up since. Even if we for some reason assume this lecture actually takes place in the game's canon, Mr. Edogawa is about the farthest you could get from being a reliable source on the verse's cosmology. The dude doesn't even know Personas and Shadows exist as they do in the game's world.
Dude, Mr. Edogawa’s TV Classroom is a guidebook, it’s the exact format as the previous one. I never said that, but it’s not like Edogawa is some crazy man. Hell, he even mentions the existence of the Arcana. It’s not like it’s new for regular humans to know about the in-verse mechanics, Wabaka Isshiki is one of them.Nothing I said had anything to do with the guidebooks? Never knew that "being an occultist" meant you automatically know all the ins and outs of your verse though.
It is, I’m saying Persona is constantly drawing references to it, in-game, and feat wise.Collective Unconscious is an extremely common term in fiction. It being used here doesn't really mean anything.
I mean, okay? I'm not arguing that the CU doesn't exist in Persona. Persona just has its own CU with its own mechanics.It is, I’m saying Persona is constantly drawing references to it, in-game, and feat wise.
1-A is denied.What are strongest arguments and evidence for 1-A Persona?
What are the arguments against 1-A Persona?1-A is denied.
Citation. You're gonna have to back this up and it's also blatantly incorrect. But I'll wait for you to actually substantiate this claim before taking anything further.Persona being simply "based on Jung's model" is not enough to directly take everything from it and apply it to the verse. It's simply an inspiration for the terminology and other such ideas being used in Persona and nothing deeper than that.
Go ahead and prove this because this is another blatant lie. The whole game is literally founded on Jung's ideas of concepts having an effect over reality. Unless you want to explain to me how cognition works not using the already established mechanics in verse based on his writings. Like this is literally the basis for every game.Jung's stuff isn't even brought up in any noticeable capacity during the actual events of the game (P4)
Nope, once again incorrect.and the majority of stuff being argued for comes from Persona 4 Golden's Mr. Edogawa's TV Classroom, bonus content which is accessed from out of game and is there simply to explain Jungian Psychology to the player.
Citation needed. I've literally posted dozens of scans proving this wrong, so you should probably explicitly address said scans and explain why they back up this quoted argument because there is literally no substantiation here.It never attempts to equate the terminology being used to the concepts in-game
It's literally the bedrock for the whole game and the reason why people get powers and subjective reality is a thing in the game. With Persona 5 giving the most blatant explanation of this at the end of the game. So I'm not really sure how you'd possibly make this claim while also claiming to know much about Persona.and as far as I'm aware hasn't been brought up since.
Which it does.Even if we for some reason assume this lecture actually takes place in the game's canon,
Annnnnd once again you'd be wrong and are literally making up points. Edogawa is specifically stated to be an expert occultist who knows exactly what he is talking about. He is not some random teacher bullshitting from a textbook. He is literally explaining the verses mechanics, which is exactly what was found in Persona 3's guidebook.Mr. Edogawa is about the farthest you could get from being a reliable source on the verse's cosmology. The dude doesn't even know Personas and Shadows exist as they do in the game's world.