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Okay onto the fun part. For the sake of simplicity, I will use your format for the TP tier breakdown because I think it's visually easy on the eyes and of course, you will be familiar with it. We can isolate the points we can disagree on and move from there.
Baseline Universe, World, or Reality in Persona. (Low 2-C)
Persona multiverse consisting of infinite physical realms housing the infinite souls captured by Enlil and the Akashic Record. (2-A)
Spirit World, which is a deeper reality completely free from the restrictions of both time and space, ranging from alternate realities of a person's POV of reality (a cognitive or spiritual realm) to "deeper" realms that can transcend even the Akashic Records. The emotions and projections of consciousness here are actually what dictate the material realm (ie changing someone's heart leads to them being affected IRL) and physical reality is simply what is widely agreed upon in this realm. This realm also includes places such as the dream realm (realm containing the cognitive worlds of people sleeping), Abyss of Time, all realms created by Dieties, and the literal sea of souls containing all souls of the past and future. (ranges from 2-A - at leastlow 1-C).
A singular realm of Void that stands even deeper than the Spirit World, being portrayed as underlying it in the same way that it underlies the material world, existing as a singular state of being from which all distinctions are made, and as completely devoid of time and space, bar the transcendental forms of those concepts that are required for time and space to exist across reality below it. (What you agree is 6-D Low 1-C, and I see as low 1A - 1A)
Philemon's Realm, which is a transcendental reality who, along with Nyarlathotep, represents the purest conceptualized version of existence (The unconscious), acting as supreme archetypes to the archetypes that exist in the lower realm, possibly also extending to Maruki and Nyx as well due to statements of a "realm of light and darkness" being mentioned by Liz as one of the deepest layers of the CU, and of course, each having their mythology highlighted upon as antagonist of the game and it being consistent. (What you currently see as 1-C and I see as deeper into 1-A (1-A+?) or 1-A if the previous realm is low 1A)
The Unconscious - The oneness that underlies all of existence and is at the root of all dualities, being nothing but a featureless intellect that lacks form or attributes entirely. Inherent sentience that experienced itself and created its first forms in Philemon, and Nyarlathtoep (it's conceptualizations of itself), along with Adam Kadmon (Archetype of human realized potential), with Nyx (primordial Night) being birthed somewhere thereabouts. Then created a world for "observers" or "users of cognition" to expand beyond its own creation power. Leaving humans with the ability to use subjective reality via the spiritual world, and ascend to the level of archetype, and becomes a fundamental unit of the CU through enlightenment bypassing the duality of spirit to matter. (High 1-A for me, you never touched on this level)
So off the bat let is skip past the bottom one because it's only relevant if we agree on the former points and ultimately would be useless outside of itself.
I think our biggest disconnect comes around the spiritual-material and Kadath connections. From my perspective, the spiritual worlds are unaffected by space and time. Space and time still exists there sure, but the concepts are ultimately pretty meaningless and not what "fixes" the spiritual world (or really the physical world). The dimensionality that matters in the case of "fixing" reality being its fundamental level of abstractness (or closeness to the root of the CU used by the analogy of "deepness". Persona makes this quite clear represented by this triangle. MAterial world corresponds to the conscious, which actually just a larger facet of personal unconscious (think palace rulers and each person's cognitive world), which in turn is just a reflection of the collective unconscious of alive humans (the greater spiritual realms, and Dieties which arise from Kadath to interfere with the lower realms), which is ultimately an illusion to the realm of Kadath (or "divine" realm) in which archetypes exist as the basic unit of existence below them. This realm completely transcending any concept of time and space and all dualities of a physical reality. Which in turn leaves Phil and Nyar existing as the two figureheads of the CU in their own realm "one level deeper" than and the lesser archetypes. Which in turn is dwarfed by the actual essence of the Unconscious.
Now I will highlight the relevant parts of the outeversal standards page.
1-A: Outerverse level
Characters who functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System, and stand outside of any extensions of infinite hierarchies and sizes, to varying degrees and magnitudes. In more straightforward terms, this category could be said to be occupied by characters whose size and/or level of power cannot be reached by merely stacking bigger infinities on top of each other.
Low 1-A | Low Outerverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.
Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature of such transcendence is given.
1-A | Outerverse level: Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level, even compared to infinite or uncountably infinite dimensions, usually by perceiving them as akin to fiction or something similarly insignificant.
However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size.[2]
We clearly lack the specifics of an infinite hierarchy of transcending dimensions statement. That is pretty granted (despite having a hierarchy of infite realms beyond space-time itself, and the Kadath transcending any concept of it altogether).
But from my position, the spiritual world would exist as a realm of existence where time and space are meaningless and they exist in a hierarchy of transcendental realms (like Enlil transcending the Akashic record) based on their abstractness (which in turn is a reflection of it's closeness to the source of the unconscious) which is also influenced by both the infinite possibilities of human's making up the physical realm, but also those of the memories of all life across all Earths/planets, alternate timelines of the same reality (such as the case of the other side in P2, and Minako/Minato in P3), and the collective data of AI (such as in the case of Sophie and Emma).
Thus Kadath transcends the spiritual in a way that no matter how many infinities of a spiritual world you stack on to one another (which are already superior to actual space time) you could not reach the ontological existence of the archetypes that exist higher and dictate allow lower. You would need a quality that allowed for the spiritual dimensions to allow for them to break the Maya, and join the first true iteration of "the self" in Kadath Mandala. Which is completely transcendental to any stacking of space and time one could accomplish with just those entities. That to me concludes an ontological "space" equivalent to something in scope beyond a High 1-B structure.
Although I am not firm on a flat out rating and could see "Likely" or "possibly" being injected due to it not being as readily evident as some other verses without a deep dive into Persona.
Let me know if you need clarification or scans, and thanks as always for the time.
Not to laugh on you but when i see you talking about something higher than 1-C i really want to know if we played the same personna games. I mean personnaly what you see as low 1-A is still really just low 1-C for me even with what you try to explain it seem more just your point of view of the thing that something that was explain/show or even possibly explicitly described...
Not to laugh on you but when i see you talking about something higher than 1-C i really want to know if we played the same personna games. I mean personnaly what you see as low 1-A is still really just low 1-C for me even with what you try to explain it seem more just your point of view of the thing that something that was explain/show or even possibly explicitly described...
That's fine, you have a right to your opinion/perspective. However, this comment doesn't really do much other than you telling me that you think my interpretation is laughable. Which I don't necessarily mind, but once again, is kind of useless without actually arguing my points instead of coming at my conclusions and thought processes.
That's fine, you have a right to your opinion/perspective. However, this comment doesn't really do much other than you telling me that you think my interpretation is laughable. Which I don't necessarily mind, but once again, is kind of useless without actually arguing my points instead of coming at my conclusions and thought processes.
Well i'm pretty sure that Ultima alredy answer you about your point on qualia. And even without that i'm not sure they can qualify for being legit infinity higher dimmension in vsb standard
Well i'm pretty sure that Ultima alredy answer you about your point on qualia. And even without that i'm not sure they can qualify for being legit infinity higher dimmension in vsb standard
Actually, he never responded to my last in thread question about the qualia thing because we focused on hashing out 1-C on discord first, so I am still waiting on that response since he was more so questioning how it would apply to the verses cosmology which I answered in my last post. But his next post should address it.
Oryx got possibly High 1-B for the passing mention of a Hilbert dimension without any further context. The spirit realm is a realm that manifest qualia over an infinite multiverse and above. The paper just shows the scale of what such manifestations would entail in a physical reality. That's the point of the study using the topological vector space. In our world it's an abstract model, but not in persona's.
The Unconscious - The oneness that underlies all of existence and is at the root of all dualities, being nothing but a featureless intellect that lacks form or attributes entirely. Inherent sentience that experienced itself and created its first forms in Philemon, and Nyarlathtoep (it's conceptualizations of itself), along with Adam Kadmon (Archetype of human realized potential), with Nyx (primordial Night) being birthed somewhere thereabouts. Then created a world for "observers" or "users of cognition" to expand beyond its own creation power. Leaving humans with the ability to use subjective reality via the spiritual world, and ascend to the level of archetype, and becomes a fundamental unit of the CU through enlightenment bypassing the duality of spirit to matter.
However, we do know a few things. In persona the many worlds theory is stated to be an interpretation of their reality with infinite possibilities. We know that qualia is what dictates reality from the spiritual world to the material, and the spiritual exist where time and space are meaningless. With qualia being quantized, I think it is fair to make a point of the qualia space vector argument.
It's really not. I've explained this to you quite a few times by now, so, I'll just reiterate it: Higher-dimensional spaces being used to model and parametize certain phenomena does not imply that what is being modelled is also of a higher-dimensional nature. For instance, infinite-dimensional spaces often come up in fluid mechanics, and even cellular processes can be studied by employing spaces with dozens of higher dimensions. Again, this is because a "dimension" is ultimately just a variable that ranges over a given number system, and you can attach these variables to any object or element that you want, so this results in higher-dimensional spaces also being present in the most mundane things you could think of.
As I explained before, this is the reason for why the existence of infinite timelines in a cosmology doesn't instantly make it High 1-B, even though, logically speaking, this structure would be conceived as embedded into an infinite-dimensional hilbert space: It's just a mathematical model, and doesn't have any relation to the actual scale of a physical system.
This is not even the only issue with this. There is also, like I said before, the fact that this comes from things that are not even mentioned in the actual verse, and is instead based on a random article that has 0 connection to Persona, which already warrants an immediate "No." Even if qualia is mentioned as an element of the cosmology, you'd still need in-verse proof that an infinite-dimensional space exists as a result of it; this is an argument that has been made for plenty of verses in the past, all of which were rejected, and this case doesn't seem to be any different.
Thus Kadath transcends the spiritual in a way that no matter how many infinities of a spiritual world you stack on to one another (which are already superior to actual space time) you could not reach the ontological existence of the archetypes that exist higher and dictate allow lower. You would need a quality that allowed for the spiritual dimensions to allow for them to break the Maya, and join the first true iteration of "the self" in Kadath Mandala.
Reality-Fiction Interactions like this one are equated to a single level of transcendence, so, the concept of Maya being mentioned on its own doesn't really prove anything that suggests 1-A. Likewise, you haven't really proven that there is an infinite hierarchy of spiritual realms in Persona; the possibility of one existing is pretty much irrelevant unless the verse itself chooses to acknowledge it, otherwise, we stick to the concrete part of the cosmology.
Oryx's case is not even remotely comparable, since Destiny actually explicitly mentioned an infinite-dimensional space that existed as an actual reality which the Vex could control. Persona doesn't have any of that, it's just this single article. Take it away and the whole point vanishes.
The paper just shows the scale of what such manifestations would entail in a physical reality. That's the point of the study using the topological vector space. In our world it's an abstract model, but not in persona's.
Yeh. Phil and Nyar are essentially the true Ying and Yang of the CU even above Kadath representing its two "sides". Yet they are "inseparable halves of a whole" (the actual CU) watching life develop for billions of years. Kadath is just the level of the archetypes that transcends the dual systems of mind/spirit (once again such as platonic forms transcending matter). The CU is comparable to the great reason as shown the SMT IV explanations about the Great Reason and the origins behind it. An experience (compared to a collective unconscious) that grew as it experienced more and touches upon the Unus Mundus Model I discussed in my earlier post from Jung evidenced by the persona 4 stuff.
Reality-Fiction Interactions like this one are equated to a single level of transcendence, so, the concept of Maya being mentioned on its own doesn't really prove anything that suggests 1-A. Likewise, you haven't really proven that there is an infinite hierarchy of spiritual realms in Persona; the possibility of one existing is pretty much irrelevant unless the verse itself chooses to acknowledge it, otherwise, we stick to the concrete part of the cosmology.
I think I have two questions that will lead us to where we need to get to regarding this conversation in order to shorten this up.
Space and time being meaningless to the fabric of spiritual worlds would mean what to you? With physical worlds themselves being illusions to them?
Kadath Mandala fully transcending a hierarchy of said spiritual realms would mean what to you? With the better context and explanations I may be able to better see your side of things or elucidate better on my end. It would also be helpful if you explained why transcendental platonic concepts are not seen as anywhere near 1-A anymore, if you would.
Kadath Mandala fully transcending a hierarchy of said spiritual realms would mean what to you? With the better context and explanations I may be able to better see your side of things or elucidate better on my end. It would also be helpful if you explained why transcendental platonic concepts are not seen as anywhere near 1-A anymore, if you would.
Ok so basically things got restructured and now being beyond those concepts is just Low 1-C? If that's the case I'll concede my arguments and we can move on but if there is more nuance to it I'd like to hear about it to be thorough.
I had this planned because I was under the impression that this would get denied, but...
This was a fairly entertaining debate, from a spectators view. Aside from the minor blotches up top, this was incredibly interesting, and I got a bit more knowledge on the rules & regulations to these tiers. While I’m still completely neutral on this as a whole, I think it helped a bit that most people were rather open-minded, and respectful enough to allow Whitee & Ultima a 1-on-1.
Ultimately, this likely will be the last AP based upgrade for this series, as there’s still a bit of hax to go (which will likely be the last in general), off the Compendium and some other entries in the series.
I just hope that this kind of thing can be executed again, without the fear of shutting down immediately as “trolling”, or “exaggerate statistics”, when Ultima simply gave his thoughts and interpretations, nothing more.
So is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted above?
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Velvet Room is, indeed, NEP 2. Given that is, along with the CU, is a product of Cognition (Type 2 Concept), it stands to reason that the Velvet Room. This is further supported by Kaneko saying that Igor & Philemon don’t really “exist”, and maybe even completely fabricated by the protagonist.
Fitting enough, the exact place the Phantom Thieves go after being erased is the Velvet Room, outside of time and space, between binary systems of mind-matter, consciousness and subconsciousness, and an abstract existence as stated by Elizabeth.
Remember to constantly link to this content revisions thread in the edit summary if this is going to take a prolonged period of time, given that I might not remember and think that it is vandalism otherwise.
"Given that is, along with the CU, is a product of Cognition (Type 2 Concept), it stands to reason that the Velvet Room. This is further supported by Kaneko saying that Igor & Philemon don’t really “exist”, and maybe even completely fabricated by the protagonist."
_ Being the product of a type 2 concept doesn't change something for NEP2 except that it's product of something so not a pure emptiness, same with the thing that it was fabricated i think. At least for what you tell here i don't see NEP2
"Given that is, along with the CU, is a product of Cognition (Type 2 Concept), it stands to reason that the Velvet Room. This is further supported by Kaneko saying that Igor & Philemon don’t really “exist”, and maybe even completely fabricated by the protagonist."
_ Being the product of a type 2 concept doesn't change something for NEP2 except that it's product of something so not a pure emptiness, same with the thing that it was fabricated i think. At least for what you tell here i don't see NEP2
Velvet Room is, indeed, NEP 2. Given that is, along with the CU, is a product of Cognition (Type 2 Concept), it stands to reason that the Velvet Room. This is further supported by Kaneko saying that Igor & Philemon don’t really “exist”, and maybe even completely fabricated by the protagonist.
Fitting enough, the exact place the Phantom Thieves go after being erased is the Velvet Room, outside of time and space, between binary systems of mind-matter, consciousness and subconsciousness, and an abstract existence as stated by Elizabeth.
Also Ultima stated when he agreed to 1-C on discord that Kadath level folks would get transduality, but didn't specify what type. So I'll wait for him to elaborate.
Also Ultima stated when he agreed to 1-C on discord that Kadath level folks would get transduality, but didn't specify what type. So I'll wait for him to elaborate.
Cognition is a conceptual power. NEP is not existing on a conceptual level. Not being cognitively observed means you’re conceptually erased, it’s fairly blatant.
Cognition is a conceptual power. NEP is not existing on a conceptual level. Not being cognitively observed means you’re conceptually erased, it’s fairly blatant.
Nep2 is not existing on a conceptuel level in any level, like what you tell they just tell to not really "exist" and that that they was probably even fabricated(+ doesn't someone was actually remember them that let the come back)
For the velvet was what said in the OP + that is a product of something conceptuel should let it not be NEP2 as for how much i see it
But well if people with better knowlowedge than me could help
List of people to be changed to 1-C
Philemon (Philemon key)
Nyarlathotep (True Nyar key)
Takuto Maruki (Adam Kadmon Key)
Nyx (True Nyx form)
P5R Main cast (bar Futaba in anything but Utlimate Shield)
P2 End Game Party.
P1 Maki, Naoya, and Pandora
Nep2 is not existing on a conceptuel level in any level, like what you tell they just tell to not really "exist" and that that they was probably even fabricated(+ doesn't someone was actually remember them that let the come back)
For the velvet was what said in the OP + that is a product of something conceptuel should let it not be NEP2 as for how much i see it
But well if people with better knowlowedge than me could help
“2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.”
You’re literally arguing against the wiki page at this point.
List of people to be changed to 1-C
Philemon (Philemon key)
Nyarlathotep (True Nyar key)
Takuto Maruki (Adam Kadmon Key)
Nyx (True Nyx form)
P5R Main cast (bar Futaba in anything but Utlimate Shield)
P2 End Game Party.
P1 Maki, Naoya, and Pandora
Doubtful, from what I know. He barely tanks an attack that nearly one shots him.
Remember, Makoto didn't seal Nyx . He seals Erebus away from meeting Nyx, who only even cares about bringing death to humanity because she thinks they long for it. So the seal really isn't binding Nyx, so much as keeping Erebus out. Erebus got bodied by Liz.
Doubtful, from what I know. He barely tanks an attack that nearly one shots him.
Remember, Makoto didn't seal Nyx . He seals Erebus away from meeting Nyx, who only even cares about bringing death to humanity because she thinks they long for it. So the seal really isn't binding Nyx, so much as keeping Erebus out. Erebus got bodied by Liz.
He adapts to the point where Nyx's attacks miss when hearing the cries of SEES. After Nyx's attack misses, he then outright negates it before using The Great Seal after doing damage(albeit a pitiful amount) to Nyx.
Doubtful, from what I know. He barely tanks an attack that nearly one shots him.
Remember, Makoto didn't seal Nyx . He seals Erebus away from meeting Nyx, who only even cares about bringing death to humanity because she thinks they long for it. So the seal really isn't binding Nyx, so much as keeping Erebus out. Erebus got bodied by Liz.
He adapts to the point where Nyx's attacks miss when hearing the cries of SEES. After Nyx's attack misses, he then outright negates it before using The Great Seal after doing damage(albeit a pitiful amount) to Nyx.
Hmm that's tough since he doesn't damage Nyx, but I guess I could agree to him getting likely with universe. I think it's fair since he blocked one attack but also failed to really do much to Nyx. A feel a similar way about the thieves as well but there feat is a tad better Imo.
Hmm that's tough since he doesn't damage Nyx, but I guess I could agree to him getting likely with universe. I think it's fair since he blocked one attack but also failed to really do much to Nyx. A feel a similar way about the thieves as well but there feat is a tad better Imo.
The Thieves' instances were essentially the same when fighting Marumon. Minimal damage, yet still able to "harm" him, so they'd scale to some degree. While a minor point, the damage numbers are even similar in scope, so I'd say Makoto w/ Universe would scale in the same fashion as the Thieves do to Marumon.
I don't think Erebus can be compared to universe arcana Makoto, considering that it wan't able to so much as put a dent on the seal, which is powered by Makoto's soul.
