Perserker vs Yorimitsuru

[Edwellken]

The aoe is as big as Mitsuru's range, and it targets all enemies. But fair enough, undodgeable wasn't the right word.

Mitsuru has information analysis that lets her identify the enemy's strengths and weaknesses. She'll know to go for Almighty right away.

The speed gap isn't enough for a blitz and the distance allows for Mitsuru to get her attacks off first, which will impede Raikou's progress in closing it. Meanwhile Mitsuru can back up if she needs to.

On top of that, Mitsuru can use her spells in melee range just as well and doesn't need to distance herself in the first place. Megidolaon like most of Persona/SMT's aoe only targets the enemy, so she won't be getting caught in her own attacks.

If it does get into melee range, things will be alot riskier for Mitsuru, but her healing allows her to stay in the fight long enough to finish it. It'll be alot closer than the alternative, but she still has a fair chance at winning even in melee range.

 

[Solacis]

That's making a lot of assumptions. It's never been explicitly stated that Persona AOEs only hit the enemies and completely ignore the user. If it has, show me the scans.

In fact, speaking of scans, where's the scan that states/shows that Megidolaon's blast radius is kilometres wide? Being able to target things from kilometres away =/= the attack affecting the character's entire range.

Mitsuru's information analysis takes time, and significantly more time than Fuuka's. It's not clairvoyance or precog, by the time she realizes to go for Almighty, it would be well after the fight has already started.

The physical difference may not be enough, but the mental speed definitely is. She kept up with and consistently fended off 5 Servants at once. Even the physically weakest Servants (that is, pure magi) are MHS by default, and Raikou fought off 5 that are specialized in close combat at the same time. Raikou will absolutely blitz, keeping Mitsuru way too busy to cast her spells safely. Real life fighters with much smaller speed differences can already do this just by constantly attacking.

If Mitsuru heals too often, Raikou will bring out her clones to try and end the fight sooner. As soon as she figures out that Mitsuru's weak to fire, the fight's over as soon as Mitsuru gets knocked down.

 

[Edwellken]

It's never been explicitly stated that Persona AOEs only hit the enemies and completely ignore the user. If it has, show me the scans.

You can see this in literally every Persona game past 3. Aoe spells get used in what's essentially close quarters combat and completely ignore the possibility of collateral damage. Even when completely surrounded by enemies, it works the same.

By nature of being a spell that "targets all enemies", the aoe is as big as her range by default. But the same spells are shown to have comparable range to sniper rifles in P1.

Be it through anlysis or trial and error, she'll start using Almighty early on. It's not like it's something she'd hold off on until the last minute.

Mitsuru still has the advantage of being able to attack from a range before Raikou can even get close.

When Mitsuru heals they'll already be well into the fight, meaning Raikou would have sustained a fair amount of damage herself. She isn't likely to survive long enough into the fight to discover Mitsuru's weakness afterwards.

Edit: I'm also not too sure about Minamoto having a speed advantage but I'll get back to that once I've looked into it.

 

[Solacis]

That's just game mechanics. Plenty of games have attacks that hit all enemies but later non-game adaptations show that said attacks do have a risk of having the user caught in the crossfire. If you fire a missile too close to yourself, you won't become immune to its effects just because its your attack. Basic logic dictates that AOEs of any kind naturally affect anything caught in its blast radius unless explicitly stated otherwise. You can't just assume these things.

You seem to be forgetting that 100 metres is practically nothing to MHS speedsters, who can cross that distance in thousandths of a second. Raikou is already used to closing in on magic-users spamming AOE attacks to keep her away, since that's part of what she's legendary for. Add that onto the fact that she can draw her attention away with her clones, she'll be able to close in with little effort.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm not making any assumptions. The characters have been shown to be able to use these attacks in close quarters without hurting themselves, and this has yet to be contradicted by any sort of canon material. You're the one assuming the spell works in the same way as a conventional missile like explosion.

Them starting at that distance is enough for Mitsuru to get the first few attacks. Raikou isn't the only MHS here and it isn't like Mitsuru is just gonna be keeping still. Also like I said early on in the thread, the clones change next to nothing since they'll be getting caught in the attack too. Even if they caught Mitsuru's attention, the real Raikou would still be getting hit along with them.

 

[Solacis]

Them being able to use the attacks in close quarters without hurting themselves doesn't imply being able to "hurt only enemies", it implies that the AOE is much smaller than you keep claiming they are. Your entire basis on the AOE being as wide as her entire range is faulty, in that never has it been shown, either in attack animations or in canon material, that AOE attacks have a blast radius even reaching ONE kilometre, much less several. Not even bringing up the fact that Mitsuru's range is apparently scaled to a pre-universal reset character. Just because attacks ca hit targets from several kilometres away, doesn't mean that the explosion automatically increases in size just to catch every single one. P5 attack animations just have multiples of the attack striking each enemy.

If anything, your claims are going against canon material. In P4A(U) we've seen several characters fight and explicitly cause collateral damage, yet not a single attack was thrown that would have obliterated the entire school building? In a place with a compound not a square-kilometre wide, not one character thought that they could just use an AOE to blow up the whole place since apparently AOEs don't hurt allies? The barriers only show up during matches, after all, and we've seen Elizabeth casually blast through a wall (or ceiling, I can't remember which) just to enter a room.

 

[Edwellken]

You must have misunderstood me at some point. The point isn't that she creates a blast encompassing her entire range, but that the attack targets all enemies within her range. She's at the very least capable of doing this without damaging herself or allies, whether she's manually accounting for it or the spell is doing so automatically. Her damaging herself can't really be used as an argument.

 

[Solacis]

It can be if Raikou is right in her face, which is my point.

In summary, my argument is that Raikou can close in with low-mid diff, and with her superior speed and agility, maintain close enough range that Mitsuru can't afford to throw around her offensive Almighty spells (which are AOE by default) without risking herself. At this point, Mitsuru can only afford to cast spells sparingly due to being pre-occupied with surviving Raikou's assault, and enough uses of healing will prompt Raikou to use her clones to try and increase her DPS, at which point, the instant the fire sword hits Mitsuru and knocks her down, it's game over.

It's already been shown in-game that high enough agility/evasion (enough stacks of Sukukaja) makes dodging AOE spells possible, and taking into account Raikou's highly superior base speed and agility in tandem with her considerable passive stat amps due to fighting a magic-user, I'm fairly certain she can more than manage that much.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Shameless plug

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Even if you try to super simplify it, Raikou is used to dealing with magicians in a world with way more magical bullshittery than Persona. There's more than 1 of her, all of these are using NPs, she has long range and short range covered, she has a fire weapon to go at Mitsuru's weakness, she has a skill perma boosting her further while fighting her, and she's way way way more skilled. Unless you wanna tell me a figure of very high skill relative to other Servants is somehow matched by Mitsuru. Servants have unlimited mana for the purpose of fights lest they just disappear, so unless Spirit Drain is very effective she's gonna need some spam to affect Raikou severely. It's own description says "a little bit of energy", so spam is her best bet if she tries that. And that if she realizes she's fighting a spirit that runs off on mana.

I don't care much about the AoE discussion and it really feels like something that was borught up as part of the discussion but kinda repercutes way outside of here, but Megidolaon is... it's a powerful spell but okay? It's still Mountain Level and Raikou can take it. Even if it does hurt her substantially, I find it hard to believe all the Raikous are close together or that the blast is so big it just hits them all, that's a lot of asssumption. Even then, this is all hoping she'll be able to use it before Raikou closes the distance and overwhelms or any of the arrows catch her and the other clones pile in to finish her of. 5 on 1 with a constant MHS+ opponent with only a 100 meters and nearly all her spells do nothing? That's just being optimistic that Megidolaon gets shot quick after Mitsuru sees her magic resisted, which sounds weird.

 

[Edwellken]

Honestly? Sure, I'm swayed. Mitsuru can't really abuse her range from this close, and Megidolaon isn't gonna one shot. No matter how you wanna spin it, experience still isn't a counter to healing, but the skill advantage and Mitsuru being swarmed by clones is probably enough to deal with it at some point. Switching to Raikou FRA.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Oh no, I totally agree experience doesn't beat out healing. I just don't see Mitsuru getting the breathing room to heal and start a counter attack if Raikou is close enough she can get a wound in. Perhaps heal and get some distance, but it seems a little unlikely with Momma Rai hot on her heels, forgetting fire support from arrows and the left over triplets supporting her.

 

[Paul_Frank]

the only berserker besides xiang yu that I can't pull fra

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So, current vote?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So, current vote?

^Also bump!!

 

[Schnee_One]

Solacis, Me, Edelwelkin and Anon for Yori

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Also my vote.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I also voting Yori too.

 

[John985]

okay. Yorimitsu FRA.

 

[The_Calaca]

Grace then.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Is this already added yet?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Since no one add this, i already added this, this can be closed now.