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That would certainly help.
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Papyrus "Absolutely Normal Attack" KE calc
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
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Considering that has been lingering for a while, getting it done would be good,
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I support this
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Actually, I can't believe I didn't ask this earlier, where does this put monsters with lower attack than Papyrus?
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- #45
I guess it's going to work out the same as with Tsunderplane. Well, similar at least.
18 and 19 attack would probably still be Large Island, since they are awfully close to him.
17-15 Island or Mountain maybe.
15-11 Mountain or City
10 and lower City or Small City.
Things from the Ruins or very low things like So Cold, Sans and Monster Kid are probably going to be Wall like always.
This is just arbitary guesses tho.
18 and 19 attack would probably still be Large Island, since they are awfully close to him.
17-15 Island or Mountain maybe.
15-11 Mountain or City
10 and lower City or Small City.
Things from the Ruins or very low things like So Cold, Sans and Monster Kid are probably going to be Wall like always.
This is just arbitary guesses tho.
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Should we really use the levels as direct measurement for the powers of early monsters? I don't really see the guys from Snowdin being small city level.
But I am fine with Papyrus' upgrade and the same for the bosses and high level monsters.
But I am fine with Papyrus' upgrade and the same for the bosses and high level monsters.
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- #47
We did that before, and these guys used to be City too, before the stats change that is.
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Actually looking at this a second time, is it correct that we use another not at the same time happening scene to determine the speed here?
Because timeflow in games isn't always the same, so saying something like time in general is depicted in ultra slow motion though the whole game is probably not right.
Because timeflow in games isn't always the same, so saying something like time in general is depicted in ultra slow motion though the whole game is probably not right.
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- #49
Usually, it would make sense as Frisk's speed scales depending on the opponenet, so against a stronger opponent than Knight Knight (The one who made the lightspeed feat) the timeframe would be at least equal.
Here however, Papyrus is weaker than Knight Knight. He is however still Relativistc due to scaling from the much weaker Napstablook. Since there is no accurate way of calclating Napstablook's speed in-game (He only uses projectiles) using Knight Knight's bullets seemed like the second best thing to calc speed from.
Here however, Papyrus is weaker than Knight Knight. He is however still Relativistc due to scaling from the much weaker Napstablook. Since there is no accurate way of calclating Napstablook's speed in-game (He only uses projectiles) using Knight Knight's bullets seemed like the second best thing to calc speed from.
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If the thing we are scaling from isn't on screen we get problems in that probably not everything in the game is constantly that fast (probably not all characters will be constantly moving with relativistic+ speed). So the scene here in question could either be a lot slower than the bullet, given that the bullet to my understanding happens in a completly different screen, or it could be faster and by that FTL ruining our KE.
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Well the thing is that the Relativistic feat here is from a much much weaker character, it wouldn't make much sense for Papyrus to attack slower than a fodder do.
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The thing is that it also hardly makes sense for the protagonist to not run through the game at relativistic speed then. Also, as mentioned, FTL would also be a problem, no? Especially since you scale the speed here from a lightspeed attack, the argument that his attacks shouldn't be slower would imply that, right?Saikou The Lewd King said:
Basically we actually don't have a correctly determined speed/timeframe and that is a problem.
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They only ever move at that speed when they're in battle, not normally.DontTalk said:
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which, given how we know determination works, makes total senseThe Everlasting said:
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Well we don't know how much faster Papyrus is to Napstablook, so making an assumption that the timeframe is slower or faster would be innacurate. And again, I didn't calc directly from Napstablook due to too much unknown, instead using Knight Knight instead.
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- #57
There isn't much measurments to be had, since none of the attacks have much feats on their own, just with speed based on their real life equivalent (Like lighting)
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Well, I still would not let the "the time is always represented slowed down by 100000000 idea" fly.
Take the minimum speed it gets for being a projectile from a relativistic character and use that for all I care, but the general time sped up idea is dismissed simply for the fact that I don't want to hear all the complains from people trying to apply that to their cinematic time.
Take the minimum speed it gets for being a projectile from a relativistic character and use that for all I care, but the general time sped up idea is dismissed simply for the fact that I don't want to hear all the complains from people trying to apply that to their cinematic time.
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Technically speaking, if everything was shown in real time, the fights for any character supersonic or above (Random guess of the minimum, but that doesn't matter) would be completely invisible to us simply because we don't have the reactions to actually percieve the events occuring.
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True, but the idea that everything is slowed by the same margin is not well reasoned.
If you want to get technical about it 30 minutes into a Undertale LP I see Napstablook crying in battle. Terminal velocity of a tear: 6 m/s. So not actually consistent speed depiction in battle.
Going by the same standards as for everything else properly determining a speed is just necessary. I don't have to talk about all the verses with massively hypersonic+ characters where meteors are called down which aren't remotely that fast.
If you want to get technical about it 30 minutes into a Undertale LP I see Napstablook crying in battle. Terminal velocity of a tear: 6 m/s. So not actually consistent speed depiction in battle.
Going by the same standards as for everything else properly determining a speed is just necessary. I don't have to talk about all the verses with massively hypersonic+ characters where meteors are called down which aren't remotely that fast.
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That's implying that his tears move at the same speed as normal ones. Going by that train of logic, DBZ characters are Sub-Human in speed since they sweat during the battle.
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Well these are magic tears able to hurt ghosts, so using real life equivalency isn't really good in this case.
My main point is that since Papyurs is >> Napstablook, there isn't much reason to think that the time slowing shenigans would make Blooky's battle slower than Papyrus'.
My main point is that since Papyurs is >> Napstablook, there isn't much reason to think that the time slowing shenigans would make Blooky's battle slower than Papyrus'.
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So the tears are less realistic then the light? ok then.
As said scale the projectiles from the slowest they can be by scaling from the characters speed for all I care, but that method of calculating general cinematic time speed will not fly, at least not in my opinion.
Feel free to check with Illuminati478 if you want another opinion on that.
As said scale the projectiles from the slowest they can be by scaling from the characters speed for all I care, but that method of calculating general cinematic time speed will not fly, at least not in my opinion.
Feel free to check with Illuminati478 if you want another opinion on that.
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It's-a me, Azathoth. Here to hopefully do a little bit of explaining.
Okay, so first off, there's a canon reason the protagonist doesn't just run through the game at Rel+ speed. Humans can harness something called Determination, which quite literally means the more determined they are, the faster and stronger they become. Frisk only moves at these speeds in battles where they're determined to survive, not when they're casually strolling along.
As for the speed of Napstablook's tears, I feel like this has already been mentioned, but Napstablook themself has a rel+ to FTL feat on their own, which is closing the blinds of their home before light which was already at their doorstep reached the window, which means it makes sense for Napstablook's magic tears to actually be that fast.
I agree with DontTalk that scaling between battles can be a problem, because speed can vary. For instance, Vulkin's lightning moves at around the same speed as Knight Knight's sunlight, but the two are never fought during the same battle (and Knight Knight is noticeably stronger), meaning that two things are possible. Vulkin's magic lightning moves at speeds far greater than natural lightning, or we cannot scale between battles because Frisk's Determination makes them perceive both at the same speed due to the sunlight being dodged in a fight with a much stronger enemy.
However, this is not to say nobody but Knight Knight, Frisk, and a few others are Rel+, as I already said, Napstablook, who is very, very low tier in the verse, was capable of moving at said speeds. This means that in this calc, one could use the lowest bounds of rel+ as a low end and the highest bounds as a high end. This unfortunately creates one more problem, though.
What if Napstablook is FTL instead of Rel+, thus making it impossible to use KE?
Well, one could argue that Napstablook has to be Rel+ (or at least is more likely to be) than FTL because all the monsters who were stronger than Napstablook, but at the epicenter of the burst of light, were absorbed. Napstablook however had time to see it reach their doorstep before closing the blinds. I'm not here to make that case, though. Just to clear things up.
I do hope this has helped.
Okay, so first off, there's a canon reason the protagonist doesn't just run through the game at Rel+ speed. Humans can harness something called Determination, which quite literally means the more determined they are, the faster and stronger they become. Frisk only moves at these speeds in battles where they're determined to survive, not when they're casually strolling along.
As for the speed of Napstablook's tears, I feel like this has already been mentioned, but Napstablook themself has a rel+ to FTL feat on their own, which is closing the blinds of their home before light which was already at their doorstep reached the window, which means it makes sense for Napstablook's magic tears to actually be that fast.
I agree with DontTalk that scaling between battles can be a problem, because speed can vary. For instance, Vulkin's lightning moves at around the same speed as Knight Knight's sunlight, but the two are never fought during the same battle (and Knight Knight is noticeably stronger), meaning that two things are possible. Vulkin's magic lightning moves at speeds far greater than natural lightning, or we cannot scale between battles because Frisk's Determination makes them perceive both at the same speed due to the sunlight being dodged in a fight with a much stronger enemy.
However, this is not to say nobody but Knight Knight, Frisk, and a few others are Rel+, as I already said, Napstablook, who is very, very low tier in the verse, was capable of moving at said speeds. This means that in this calc, one could use the lowest bounds of rel+ as a low end and the highest bounds as a high end. This unfortunately creates one more problem, though.
What if Napstablook is FTL instead of Rel+, thus making it impossible to use KE?
Well, one could argue that Napstablook has to be Rel+ (or at least is more likely to be) than FTL because all the monsters who were stronger than Napstablook, but at the epicenter of the burst of light, were absorbed. Napstablook however had time to see it reach their doorstep before closing the blinds. I'm not here to make that case, though. Just to clear things up.
I do hope this has helped.
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The big bone values (which are the ones that count) actually average out to Large Island level.
So that should be taken.
"Undyne, Mettaton EX & NEO,Asgore and Toriel should be at least Small Country level with it."
I don't know after which logic you conclude that, but being unquantified stronger doesn't mean upgrade by a stat. So that probably is Large Island level as well.
So that should be taken.
"Undyne, Mettaton EX & NEO,Asgore and Toriel should be at least Small Country level with it."
I don't know after which logic you conclude that, but being unquantified stronger doesn't mean upgrade by a stat. So that probably is Large Island level as well.
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I agree with Azathoth on this.
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It was based on the old value, where the increase in stats (20 to 80) would have given Small Country. It doesn't seems to be the case any longer, however stats in Undertale aren't exactly linear, what with Asgore (Mountain) and Undying (Multiversal) having only 19 attack in difference.DontTalk said:
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Well in this case, listed stats are different from usual in-games one as in they are purely story-driven and doesn't affect gameplay in any way.
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Saikou is right, stats given when you check an enemy are not their actual in-game stats, it's what's listed to show who's stronger than who in the grand scheme of things.
As it stands, Asgore has four times as much attack as Papyrus, and thus should be far stronger than him.
Which multiversal being are you referring to? Because Flowey has not given attack stat, while Asriel's attack is infinite.
As it stands, Asgore has four times as much attack as Papyrus, and thus should be far stronger than him.
Which multiversal being are you referring to? Because Flowey has not given attack stat, while Asriel's attack is infinite.
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He's refering to Undying.
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Wait the stats aren't linear? Isn't that extremely probelmatic?
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The simple solution is to use things such as "Unknown", "At least", and "likely", which will help the problem of non-linear stats. For instance, Undyne is much, much stronger than Papyrus, but we don't know by exactly how much. Therefore, "At least Large Island level, likely higher" or something is probably our best bet.
@Saikou
Don't forget Chara. Both Undyne the Undying and lvl 20 Chara have an attack value of around 99 (which is finite, obviously), and certainly proves stats aren't linear (and why Asriel having his stats as literally "infinity" actually means something). Hence the reason for what I said, above.
@Saikou
Don't forget Chara. Both Undyne the Undying and lvl 20 Chara have an attack value of around 99 (which is finite, obviously), and certainly proves stats aren't linear (and why Asriel having his stats as literally "infinity" actually means something). Hence the reason for what I said, above.
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I'm just waiting for the day that someone comes and says that Undertale charactes gets an infinite boost in power each 19 level of attack, and thus that Asgore is Complex Multiversal and that Asriel is High Hyperversal
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I'm waiting for the day I can strangle that person.
I still can't understand how Undertale is simultaneously one of the most wanked and downplayed verses I follow.
I still can't understand how Undertale is simultaneously one of the most wanked and downplayed verses I follow.
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True, I've somehow managed to hear both Universal Papyrus and Lifewiper Chara.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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It's always like...The Everlasting said:
- Everyone and their mother is a MFTL+ Universe buster by scaling from max DETERMINATION Frisk, for some reason.
- Everyone but the God Tiers are Building level with average human speed while the God Tiers are at best planet busters with unquantifiable speed.
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So are we still in deciding on implementing this or what?
@Saikou: Would you like if i highlight this page?
@Saikou: Would you like if i highlight this page?
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