Overlord General Discussion Mk.IV

[Marquis_Samigina]

"Hypothetically"
Then why does that mod outright state that we don't measure soulhax in terms of numbers like we do for mindhax?

It's difficult for me to accept the words of a non-staff that contradicts the words of a staff, as staff members tends to know more about this site's rules and operations than most non-staff members does.

You can wait for mods to reply, since i'm not an expert in the topic. However, IMO, potency of everything up to 4D (including hax) should be determined in exact numbers (number of targets it affect or the area it can cover).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

How you concluded that exactly? Because Ainz's newly acquired soul resistance is a no joke. It comes from his WCI (which should be measured in 5B against hax in my opinion) that allowed him to no-sell Cure Elim's Soulbreaker, in which one shot is powered by TENS of MILLIONS (if not hundreds, since he, most likely, was harvesting souls for centuries) souls worth of energy. He needs to destroy fixated number of souls he previoulsy absorbed in order to release that breath attack.

Again, and I don't know why this bears repeating, there's nothing like "5B hax" and there has never been, that's applying AP to something that disregards AP by nature (mostly).

I also have no clue why would you use hundreds of millions of souls just because Cure has been harvesting for that long. If he ripped off 200,000 souls in one cast, as an example, even if he has billions in stock pile, 200,000 is the level of resistance we can give Ainz barring special mechanics of the soul ripping. Unless you mean he has soul resistance because he survived an EE attack powered by souls...? Which is not at all how this works and has never been. The ray EEs, and that's what Ainz resists, nothing more. The source of power for the ability matters literally nothing, it's soul manip because you are doing something to the soul of someone else, not using souls as energy. Otherwise Broly would have resistance to Ki energy or something weird like that because of resisting Goku's paralysis technique which uses Ki, as an example.

And I don't know what Bambu is talking about as we have always used numbers. Are you sure you didn't misunderstand what he meant? He could have meant Strahd doesn't use numbers. Which makes sense, as D&D has Save Rolls, which is what makes sure that your character doesn't get one shotted by even the most silly low level spells that you can't survive by endurance and armor. So it means you are breaching someone's natural resistance (save roll) to affect them, with 1 being something like normal human level and each number above that being one tier higher.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Cure had about 1.5 million souls iirc

 

[DeathNoodles]

"we don't measure soulhax that way, you're thinking of mindhax" "and again, we don't really measure soulhax in terms of numbers"

That's literally what Mr. Bambu, a mod, stated in his message wall. I'm pretty sure the way he worded his sentences means he's referring to soulhax in general (it definitely seems like it), rather than whatever mechanics Strahd as a DnD character is in (I don't think you can you get more explicit than "we don't really measure soulhax in terms of numbers" when referring to general soulhax).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then either there was some change of standards that I don't remember or he's getting confused because we do use numbers.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Then either there was some change of standards that I don't remember or he's getting confused because we do use numbers.

If you want to contact him about this topic, then be my guest. I'm not going back to that topic with him again.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am fine, because it was even discussed in the Shao Khan x Ainz thread, so I don't see how numbers don't matter.

Also, as I thought, no. Shao Khan versus Ainz is still Incon. Shao Kahn has planterary Soul Hax, ridiculously above what Cure pulled of. Ainz's resistance gets punched in the teeth.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I am fine, because it was even discussed in the Shao Khan x Ainz thread, so I don't see how numbers don't matter.

The words of Mr. Bambu (a mod) basically contradicts that, but sure, okay then.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I really have no clue why you need to say mod every single time. Mods aren't gods and can be wrong.

If I am the one wrong, **** me I guess? You can just ask him what is even used to determine soul potency.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I really have no clue why you need to say mod every single time. Mods aren't gods and can be wrong.

If I am the one wrong, **** me I guess? You can just ask him what is even used to determine soul potency.

True, but they tend to be more knowledgeable about the rules and operations of this site than most non-staff members do.

Either way, I'm not contacting him about this topic again and it's currently around midnight in my end (I'm about to go sleep). You should try being the one to contact him about this topic instead. You'll get more answers that way anyways, as you can ask more specific questions that you want answers to.

 

[Marquis_Samigina]

I also have no clue why would you use hundreds of millions of souls just because Cure has been harvesting for that long. If he ripped off 200,000 souls in one cast, as an example, even if he has billions in stock pile, 200,000 is the level of resistance we can give Ainz barring special mechanics of the soul ripping.

Have you actually read the novel? It was in the Prologue that Evileye's nation population estimated in 5M people. All of them were soulripped and turned into zombies after Cure's attack. Not only that, Cure's soulstealing techique affected 3 neighbouring to Keno's nations in the region, where population was a bit higher, and completely devastated them as well in one turn.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Web novel Ainz fully geared out would be within the top 25% of players. In the web novel the author was dumping more calculable info, for example Brain VS Shalltear really makes you wonder what Yggdrasil buffs/items are capable off. Brain drinks a few potions, the first called [Lesser Strength] improved your muscles by 20%, the next one [Lesser dexterity] improved your sensitivity and reaction speed by 20%. This is all lesser, greater should give 50% or more.


His sword stats were:

["Godly Sword, Holy Attribute, Low Magic Effect, 20% increase in physical slashing, physical damage 5% increase and 10% for a limited time, 30% damage on non-real entities, 5% critical chance increase. Evaluation….Interesting."]

It's a shame he doesn't do this much for the LN, probably because of inconsistency problems? As stated in the webnovel it's 3km from the lake in Tob forest to enter Empire and from E-Rantel to the capital of Re-Estize it's 280km, a distance larger than Keeno/Evileye's country. Cure Elim's range was 250km+, going by what author said about 'destroying a nation incredibly quickly', he would outdo Elim by a-lot, of-course this is web novel.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Can't Demiurge petrify people in the WN?

Does anyone else have noteworthy abilities in the WN they don't have in the LN?

 

[InfiniteSped]

Albedo has Nonexistent Physiology

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Yes, Aura can do the same, she froze Brain. No need to worry, petrification can be healed (I don't know how that works out)

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Would take too long to go through entire WN for that. Just think of it as scaling down abilities, removing abilities and renaming abilities. Hopefully Ainz's world class item is the same? Roberdyck punched it thinking it was his weak spot only to be repelled and his gauntlet to be destroyed, weirdly his hand wasn't damaged, something that surprised him.

Also world champion Touch-Me was scaled down, upper high players he could take on 3 and world champions had the ability 'dimensional gap' that 'absolutely' defended them and could used 'dimensional slash'. Author already stated he could with the right timing negate [Longinus].

 

[Apeironaxim]

"[Widen Magic - Cry of the Banshee]."
A woman's wail echoed through the air. This cry carried with it an instant-death effect.
Ainz had used various skills to augment this spell, so its potency was greater than normal and harder to resist. Still, it was useless against Shalltear and the Einherjar construct.

How do we wanna treat Ainz buffing his Death spells?

Should we say they bypass basic resistances (whatever that counts as in the wiki), or do we just ignore it until we get a good example of it bypassing some kind of resistance?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

If he casts an instant death spell after [TGOALID]? It shouldn't affect anyone though. The instant death effect takes effect after 12 seconds as seen with Shalltear's minions. Or maybe you mean strengthening in general? I don't think he is able to do it outside of his special skill but if he can it would bypass resistances and not immunity. Just like how he has a ring against temporal attacks, players should have something against instant death.

[Having time-stop and instant death counter measures are absolutely required to face Ainz.

Only then can one feel they are standing on an equal footing. Shalltear is a good example.] - Author thoughts volume 9

https://mypage.syosetu.com/mypageblog/view/userid/170524/blogkey/1184793/

 

[Apeironaxim]

The move Ainz was planning to use was one which was only available after reaching the maximum level (5th) in Eclipse, a skill which could only be used once every 100 hours.
It was the trump card of the Eclipse class.
That skill was called [The Goal Of All Life Is Death].
In that moment, a clock face appeared behind Ainz, its hands indicating 12:00. Then, he cast a spell:
"[Widen Magic - Cry of the Banshee]."
A woman's wail echoed through the air. This cry carried with it an instantdeath effect.
Ainz had used various skills to augment this spell, so its potency was greater than normal and harder to resist. Still, it was useless against Shalltear and the Einherjar construct.

Here's the full context

Ainz had already used TGOALID, and then he says he used various skills to enhance the instant death properties of Cry of the Banshee. Considering he had already used TGOALID, and the states he used various skills, I would say it's clear his enhancement skills are separate from TGOALID

The word "various" makes this obvious, as TGOALID is only a single skill. Also Ainz had yet to explain what TGOALID even did in this scene, so there would be no reason to assume he's talking about TGOALID when he says the instant death potency was increased

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

TGOALID activates after 12 seconds, it's clear he strengthened before that. Also TGOALID isn't a single kill, or do you mean single use? It affect the instant death magic he had cast + skills, in this case the cry of the banshee as well as the skills he used to augment it. Also Ainz doesn't have to explain, third person already did:

[Ainz's trump card, ÒÇîThe Goal Of All Life Is DeathÒÇì strengthened the effect of instant death magic and skills. Thus augmented, those instant-death effects could bypass any immunities or resistance and kill their targets after a certain amount of time had passed.]

 

[Apeironaxim]

that was after he mentioned the use of various skills, so I would say it's separate

also he does it in Volume 1, so I don't know what the problem is here

Momonga's opening spell was one that he particularly favored, [Grasp Heart]. This sort of magic was Momonga's specialty. Momonga had used his innate skills to increase the chances of instant death, and his necromancy-enhancing abilities improved the effectiveness of [Grasp Heart] even further. However, it meant that he could not gauge the strength of that knight.

I'm going to assume the talk about "increased chances" is Ainz thinking about game mechanics, considering he hasn't been in the New World for very long at all at this point and is still used to YGGDRASIL

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

I don't know what you mean. I did already say he strengthened before that. Yes it's game mechanics since it works on chance and since his 'luck'/sasuga meter is so high, it hasn't failed to activate.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Soulrip can be resisted? From what I've read it seemed willpower was needed rather than stats or magic. Natasha was a tier 2 caster and over exerted to then die while the lower maids groned in pain and lasted longer than her. While Keeno's father who should be lower in stats than her mother actually made it to Keeno while her mother could only crawl.

 

[Marquis_Samigina]

It was done for the sake of a plot convenience, i.e basic trope to show how Annie cared about her daughter through maximum suffering and agony of Keno's mom. From logical standpoint, you maaaaybe can only postpone your death with some intense pain, but not outright resist the spell effect. (C'mon how humie fodder can ever hope to resist Wild Magic which probably rivals top 20 WCI?).

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Oh, I was checking Cure's profile and it said that stronger beings can resist it, I was wondering who came to this conclusion.

[The reason why she did not become a zombie but a vampire instead is because she was subconsciously using her Talent to replicate Cure Elim's Wild Magic and absorbed the souls of the people around her, becoming the undead being that Cure Elim had originally planned to be -- another Cure Elim.]

So cure casted his spell only for Keeno to copy and start absorbing souls. So my previous point of them being able to resist it is invalid because Keeno was the one absorbing their souls and not Cure.

[Her Talent is "the ability to store any spell that she has seen or been targeted with -- but only one -- and use it for her own." She can even use it on super-tier spells or Wild Magic. However, when casting the spells, its effects are calculated from her own stats, and she has to pay any costs that need to be paid. For instance, if she were to cast Fallen Down, it would take the same amount of time to cast, and it would work off her lower ability scores, so it would be less damaging than the same spell as cast by Ainz. However, she will be counted as having met the ability requirements for casting the spell.]

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Have you actually read the novel? It was in the Prologue that Evileye's nation population estimated in 5M people. All of them were soulripped and turned into zombies after Cure's attack. Not only that, Cure's soulstealing techique affected 3 neighbouring to Keno's nations in the region, where population was a bit higher, and completely devastated them as well in one turn.

Actually read my reply before replying back. 200,000 is just a nonsense number I used to set an example, that the stock of souls Cure had and the number he used for Soulbreath has nothing to do with Ainz's soul resistance.

 

[Apeironaxim]

If Ainz resisted the soul rip the number would matter, since last I checked soul resistance is based on how many it effects, but the number of souls used up to power an attack doesn't seem too relavent for resistances

So I agree with that, unless someone can prove otherwise

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yeah, my point was that the number of soul rips from the actual wild magic is what matters, not the number of souls used as energy to power an entirely different ability that has nothing to do with affecting souls. Even if it EE'd the soul or something like that, it would only scale to the max number of souls it would have been shown EEing, not how many it was powered by.

As for the various skills empowering his death spell Ape, I thought that was already taken for granted. Ainz has many things that generally strengthen his options, like his summons and stuff, and is likely the same for most other Yggdrassil builds that aren't a meaningless mess of classes.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Yeah, I just wondered if we would treat his death spells as bypassing some kind of basic resistance since he states he makes them "more potent and harder to resist", but I guess that's too vague to do anything with

He already has that with the Staff of AOG (granted it also bypasses immunities in-verse so it's way more powerful), so I guess it doesn't matter too much, but it would certainly help him in matches where he doesn't have the staff

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I mean, I doubt it needs to be said in his profile (but some note by the side doesn't hurt), but it should totally allow him a better chance against more basic resistances.

 

[Apeironaxim]

So we assume that the characters know they are in a battle during a vsthread right?

So unless we have been and I've just missed it, shouldn't Ainz automatically have his Despair Aura V at the start of the battle, since he knows he's fighting an enemy, and there would literally be no reason to not have it on due to not knowing what his opponent resists?

 

[FDrybob]

I think so.

 

[Apeironaxim]

What's the range of his Despair Aura?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Pretty much, they just start the fight without the impediment of wondering where the **** they are or why they are fighting or whatever. They are able minded and ready.

And I don't think so? As far as I am aware, at no point that Ainz does battle he has shown to keep it turned on. Not speaking about Momon of course, he would keep it off for obvious reasons.

Though, his Despair Aura obviously (as far as we've seen) doesn't have a range at all like his other spells, so starting distance could save the characters. Otherwise if we decided it's just on and it started at closer range, anyone without resistance just drops dead at the start and that's a stomp.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Ainz wanted info from the scripture, so he wouldn't have it on, and having it on during his saving of the village would kill the innocents. He wanted to learn from Clementine about Martial Arts, so no-go there. He didn't want to kill the Wise King, so again no-go. Shalltear is immune. The Evil Tree I think he wanted the Guardians to fight for an experiment. The Basilisk "fight" was observed by a human. The Demi incident would have no reason to use it. He wanted to experiment on the workers, so no-go. The face off with the army Ainz was told to start with his strongest spell. Using it during the Gazef fight would have killed Brain and Climb. Ainz wanted to fight with Go Gin in warrior/fair combat iirc. Using it during his talk with the dragons would have killed all of them, even the ones that listened to him. Wrath resists, and even if he didn't Ainz wanted a showy battle.

There are other encounters/fights I'm sure, but there seem to be reasons why he wouldn't use it in each one, so not sure the "He hasn't used it before" argument makes much sense here

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Wrath probably would have died. Also Ainz did talk about Eternal Death's aura that combines his level 5 aura and level 1 and how releasing it into the streets would paint a helish picture, so I'd say his despair has some range.

[Ainz-san's Level 5 Aura? That isn't magic! It's Instant Death!]

https://twitter.com/maruyama_kugane/status/1002179239427227648

Edit: Going back to volume 8 chapter 2 part 2, Ainz had used on Guu and his troll/ogre bros. Anime looks to me like 10-15 meter range.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"Saying Ainz has a 'high resistance' to mind control...Isn't that what we call headcanon? I mean, imaging being an author trying to separate resistances from immunities only for some fan to turn those immunities into resistances?"

I really have to wonder in what way do you imagine we handle resistances in this site, Mucha.


And yeah, I know the aura has range, I just meant that the range is obviously lower compared to his actual spells.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Newbie's mistake, wondering where you digged that up from. Also yes, you've already said it has range, just not the same as his other spells and I said it has "some range" and showed an example.

 

[Apeironaxim]

So since Ainz is immune (in-verse) to all mind affecting abilities that count as mind affecting abilities, shouldn't we add Resistance to Fear Manip and Madness Manip, since those are mind affecting abilities?

I mean he already has the ability to cause them on his profile, but not resistance to them

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That should already fall under his emotional dampner and general mind resistance.