Outerversal Neco-Arc

[Lonkitt]

Was this supposed to go in fun and games?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Scan seems self-defeating. If there is no connection to the main storyline or characters of the novel, trying to scale from events that come from it is strange. Instead of dismissing it like welcome one and all, it's the parody corner. Let's go have fun and make no sense. Isn't it more day-to-day procedure to conclude that these “reasons” for routes happening are parody reasons and shouldn't be taken any more seriously than any other of their kind? Because the reasons are also disconnected to the main story, when they come from a corner isolated from the narrative.

And this is parody to end all parodies. One trying to scale Neco-Arc humorously above the entire franchise, including beings that the narrative goes out of its way to stablish the vast superiority of in many more works. With detailed consistent effort.

Jokes can only go so far in the absence of context to back them up. Looking at past threads with this same topic, it seems that taking this seriously would also not make any scaling sense.

I'm not about to pretend that I am the final word in TYPE-MOON knowledge but from what I understand of common logic as applied to general scaling, this doesn't look acceptable.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Scan seems self-defeating. If there is no connection to the main storyline or characters of the novel, trying to scale from events that come from it is strange. Instead of dismissing it like welcome one and all, it's the parody corner. Let's go have fun and make no sense. Isn't it more day-to-day procedure to conclude that these “reasons” for routes happening are parody reasons and shouldn't be taken any more seriously than any other of their kind? Because the reasons are also disconnected to the main story, when they come from a corner isolated from the narrative.

And this is parody to end all parodies. One trying to scale Neco-Arc humorously above the entire franchise, including beings that the narrative goes out of its way to stablish the vast superiority of in many more works. With detailed consistent effort.

Jokes can only go so far in the absence of context to back them up. Looking at past threads with this same topic, it seems that taking this seriously would also not make any scaling sense.

I'm not about to pretend that I am the final word in TYPE-MOON knowledge but from what I understand of common logic as applied to general scaling, this doesn't look acceptable.

I would agree with this if Neco Arc's thing wasn't just being a joke character. If it was a one off joke from a serious character I think this would make more sense but the nature of the character is to be eccentric and do shit like make new timelines and be the "strongest" and other shit.

Not commenting and what Neco Arc's tier should be but Neco Arc is consistently shown to do wacky stuff that is consistent it's not like there's no basis.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I would agree with this if Neco Arc's thing wasn't just being a joke character. If it was a one off joke from a serious character I think this would make more sense but the nature of the character is to be eccentric and do shit like make new timelines and be the "strongest" and other shit.

Not commenting and what Neco Arc's tier should be but Neco Arc is consistently shown to do wacky stuff that is consistent it's not like there's no basis.

True, but being a parody doesn't free a character from objective evaluation. Accepting that Neco-Arc would split Akasha like a Comic Book because in a corner outside narrative bounds she had some fun parody moments is pushing it.

Also have to disagree with the interpretation that Ciel's corner is a superior continuity. The screen says that there is no connection and that the place is a strategy guide hint corner.

Picking up all canon of the source material and scaling it as infinitely inferior to a parody corner that is evidently written for fun asides with no true impact in the main narrative is arbitrary. This is not the same, but does remind me of Silent Hill's ending with the Shiba Inu being the reason why everything was going down.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Scan seems self-defeating. If there is no connection to the main storyline or characters of the novel, trying to scale from events that come from it is strange.

The Neco-Arc (tsukihime key) IS the Ciel-Sensei key. Neco-Arc doesn't appear otherwise in Tsukihime. You're probably thinking of Neco's Melty blood key, which would be untouched.

Instead of dismissing it like welcome one and all, it's the parody corner. Let's go have fun and make no sense. Isn't it more day-to-day procedure to conclude that these “reasons” for routes happening are parody reasons and shouldn't be taken any more seriously than any other of their kind? Because the reasons are also disconnected to the main story, when they come from a corner isolated from the narrative.

You can be isolated from a narrative and still affect it, thats literally how r>f works. We see neco-arc create an entire narrative that normally cannot be triggered anyway in tsukihime. It being "Parody" doesnt debunk anything. There's a reason "jokes are the deepest lore" is a common fanon phrase.

And this is parody to end all parodies. One trying to scale Neco-Arc humorously above the entire franchise, including beings that the narrative goes out of its way to stablish the vast superiority of in many more works. With detailed consistent effort.

Except neco-arc is separate from the main narrative.... so this changes nothing. Even the "canon" neco-arc has ridiculous feats when compared to the rest of the verse. she destroys the milky way galaxy, which includes the earth. you know, the same earth thats protected by the multiversal counterforce and has an 6/8d structure? Neco Arc blows all that up with a tuna can. Also dont forget we have the servant-verse on this wiki, which has comparable feats in ridiculousness.

Jokes can only go so far in the absence of context to back them up. Looking at past threads with this same topic, it seems that taking this seriously would also not make any scaling sense.

I'm not about to pretend that I am the final word in TYPE-MOON knowledge but from what I understand of common logic as applied to general scaling, this doesn't look acceptable.

You're applying normal powerscaling logic to a joke character. If we took your incredulity into effect, we couldn't scale characters with toon force, or other parody characters. A LOT of parody characters consistently scale above the rest of their verse

 

[Iiliminal]

neco-arc solos lil bro

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I would agree with this if Neco Arc's thing wasn't just being a joke character. If it was a one off joke from a serious character I think this would make more sense but the nature of the character is to be eccentric and do shit like make new timelines and be the "strongest" and other shit.

Not commenting and what Neco Arc's tier should be but Neco Arc is consistently shown to do wacky stuff that is consistent it's not like there's no basis.

also, nasu himself subscribes to the idea of "haha joke character being strong = funny"
when asked what the top 3 strongest characters were, he gave a list of exclusively parody characters before giving a more serious one

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

 

[CurrySenpai]

also, nasu himself subscribes to the idea of "haha joke character being strong = funny"
when asked what the top 3 strongest characters were, he gave a list of exclusively parody characters before giving a more serious one

I see the top 3 strongest of nasuverse stuff brought up and while I would love for that to be used it definitely comes off as something where he just made a joke not too applicable sadly.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

True, but being a parody doesn't free a character from objective evaluation. Accepting that Neco-Arc would split Akasha like a Comic Book because in a corner outside narrative bounds she had some fun parody moments is pushing it.

Also have to disagree with the interpretation that Ciel's corner is a superior continuity. The screen says that there is no connection and that the place is a strategy guide hint corner.

Picking up all canon of the source material and scaling it as infinitely inferior to a parody corner that is evidently written for fun asides with no true impact in the main narrative is arbitrary. This is not the same, but does remind me of Silent Hill's ending with the Shiba Inu being the reason why everything was going down.

If people in said continuity treat the verse as fiction and can manipulate it at will, its superior.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I see the top 3 strongest of nasuverse stuff brought up and while I would love for that to be used it definitely comes off as something where he just made a joke not too applicable sadly.

well arcueid's position is supported by further statements and feats, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

The Neco-Arc (tsukihime key) IS the Ciel-Sensei key. Neco-Arc doesn't appear otherwise in Tsukihime. You're probably thinking of Neco's Melty blood key, which would be untouched.

You can be isolated from a narrative and still affect it, thats literally how r>f works. We see neco-arc create an entire narrative that normally cannot be triggered anyway in tsukihime. It being "Parody" doesnt debunk anything. There's a reason "jokes are the deepest lore" is a common fanon phrase.

The problem, or rather where the problem begins, is that treating this scenario as R>F is an arbitrary stretch of logic. It implodes on its own foundations.

The loading screen that should be the linchpin of this argument instead disconnects the corner from the main storyline. That breaks the bridge that this argument needs before it even starts. It can't in good faith be argued that this qualifies for R>F between the corner and Nasu's works because the connection between what you are calling R and what you are calling F has been broken.

Ciel and Neco-Arc can say anything they want about the main story without it having any weight to its scaling chain and make all the jokes they want. A tips corner, full of jokes and where things shouldn't be taken at face-value. Instead, the argument brought to this thread is saying that because they are disconnected...then everything said there is true to the main storyline. And that the main storyline is thoroughly inferior. Further, that this truth extends to all Nasu-made works. Which doesn't hold because it's its own corner. Without connection. Without impact. From the beginning, I have said this:

Scan seems self-defeating. If there is no connection to the main storyline or characters of the novel, trying to scale from events that come from it is strange. Instead of dismissing it like welcome one and all, it's the parody corner. Let's go have fun and make no sense. Isn't it more day-to-day procedure to conclude that these “reasons” for routes happening are parody reasons and shouldn't be taken any more seriously than any other of their kind? Because the reasons are also disconnected to the main story, when they come from a corner isolated from the narrative.

So taking everything said in the corner at face value, stretching it to the end where it swallows every other narrative that Nasu's pen has conceived is arbitrary. It's the exact same thing as bringing up the author making a joke response about who the top 3 strongest are and trying to say it helps justify this scaling.

Except neco-arc is separate from the main narrative.... so this changes nothing. Even the "canon" neco-arc has ridiculous feats when compared to the rest of the verse. she destroys the milky way galaxy, which includes the earth. you know, the same earth thats protected by the multiversal counterforce and has an 6/8d structure? Neco Arc blows all that up with a tuna can.

I did some studying on the thread history of Neco-Arc before replying. This another self-defeating argument because the feat that you are bringing up was also rejected. At most, people wanted to scale the bomb (not even Neco-Arc) to Galaxy level. Let alone 8-D.

You're applying normal powerscaling logic to a joke character. If we took your incredulity into effect, we couldn't scale characters with toon force, or other parody characters. A LOT of parody characters consistently scale above the rest of their verse

My argument doesn't come from incredulity. If it did I'd just give the thread a joke and call it a day. It's not time-consuming to discuss something when your argument is plain disbelief. I took the time to read and give several reasons why I think the opposite is happening here. This thread's logic gives Neco-Arc an excess of credit over an entire narrative. Because of passing jokes, self-contained corners that shouldn't be taken at face value, parody reasons being treated like gospel and ignoring narrative boundaries with a She's a joke character! linchpin. These factors aren't enough to scale Neco-Arc or anyone above an entire 1-A cosmology on their own.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Was this supposed to go in fun and games?

no, now evaluate this crt for god cat neco arcueid-sama

 

[Iiliminal]

NECO-ARC >>>>>>>> fiction

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The problem, or rather where the problem begins, is that treating this scenario as R>F is an arbitrary stretch of logic. It implodes on its own foundations.

The loading screen that should be the linchpin of this argument instead disconnects the corner from the main storyline. That breaks the bridge that this argument needs before it even starts. It can't in good faith be argued that this qualifies for R>F between the corner and Nasu's works because the connection between what you are calling R and what you are calling F has been broken.

You cannot exist in the same narrative that you claim to be more real than, this changes nothing.
A can affect B, but B cant affect A.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

Neco-Arc views tsukihime in the same way we the player do, as a video game, or a story.

Ciel and Neco-Arc can say anything they want about the main story without it having any weight to its scaling chain and make all the jokes they want. A tips corner, full of jokes and where things shouldn't be taken at face-value. Instead, the argument brought to this thread is saying that because they are disconnected...then everything said there is true to the main storyline. Which doesn't hold because it's its own corner. Without connection. Without impact. From the beginning, I have said this:

Again, characters being a parody and a joke do not discount their feats, we have several pages that are like this. If they were subject to the main narrative, they would be below the Swirl of the Root.

So taking everything said in the corner at face value, stretching it to the end where it swallows every other narrative that Nasu's pen has conceived is arbitrary. It's the exact same thing as bringing up the author making a joke response about who the top 3 strongest are and trying to say it helps justify this scaling.

Again,A can affect B, but B cant affect A. It cant swallow every other narrative because it is separate. These versions of the characters will never appear in the main timeline.

I did some studying on the thread history of Neco-Arc before replying. This another self-defeating argument because the feat that you are bringing up was also rejected. At most, people wanted to scale the bomb (not even Neco-Arc) to Galaxy level. Let alone 8-D.

This would be tier 1, not 3-B btw, destroying the entire galaxy would at the least involve destroying earth and other similarly higher dimensional planets and space

My fault og, I forgot about Fate scaling.

post from the original thread

My argument doesn't come from incredulity. If it did I'd just give the thread a joke and call it a day. It's not time-consuming to discuss something when your argument is plain disbelief. I took the time to read and give several reasons why I think the opposite is happening here. This thread's logic gives Neco-Arc an excess of credit over an entire narrative. Because of passing jokes, self-contained corners that shouldn't be taken at face value, parody reasons being treated like gospel and ignoring narrative boundaries with a She's a joke character! linchpin. These factors aren't enough to scale Neco-Arc or anyone above an entire 1-A cosmology on their own.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

me when shit gets accepted for other verses with almost the exact same reasoning

Multiverse level with Plot Manipulation (Arale's plot prowess is akin to that of Toriyama's,[131] making her able to create, manipulate, and even end the entire series, which includes many worlds.[200] Containing timelines which are countless due to each timeline naturally existing for every day, hour, and minute that occurs in time.[189][157][230] She can also go beyond that realm's 4th Wall, being able to manipulate the pages & animation which contains the entire Dr. Slump reality.[105]).

 

[Ikelaggan]

me when shit gets accepted for other verses with almost the exact same reasoning

Sounds like whataboutism to me

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Sounds like whataboutism to me

not whataboutism because i already responded to the main argument

 

[Magicomethkuon]

You cannot exist in the same narrative that you claim to be more real than, this changes nothing.
A can affect B, but B cant affect A.

Neco-Arc views tsukihime in the same way we the player do, as a video game, or a story.


Again, characters being a parody and a joke do not discount their feats, we have several pages that are like this. If they were subject to the main narrative, they would be below the Swirl of the Root.

Again,A can affect B, but B cant affect A. It cant swallow every other narrative because it is separate. These versions of the characters will never appear in the main timeline.


post from the original thread

I already said that this thread tries to scale something that has a big sign reading does not scale attached to it. This last reply is just turning the argument circular and the answer I gave before covers all I have to say about why there's a problem with this. The only difference it'd make at this point is who wants to try and reply last. Unless you bring new arguments to the table we'd just be repeating the exact same points with tweaks in our choice of words.

me when shit gets accepted for other verses with almost the exact same reasoning

About this, Arale has feats and statements, all inside of her continuity of choice. Her ratings can't be compared with trying to scale Neco-Arc above every creation of Nasu, using a parody corner tutorial without true ties to the storyline as leverage. That is a false equivalence. There are no leaps or assumptions being made on what Arale can do. Everything has source and connections. The same can't be said about Neco here.

 

[Lonkitt]

no, now evaluate this crt for god cat neco arcueid-sama

Nothing about this scene indicates the slightest hint of Tier 1, let alone Tier 2. This is just a silly fourth wall break

 

[KingNanaya]

Nothing about this scene indicates the slightest hint of Tier 1, let alone Tier 2. This is just a silly fourth wall break

you're actually the greatest, good lord

 

[Dereck03]

Nothing about this scene indicates the slightest hint of Tier 1, let alone Tier 2. This is just a silly fourth wall break

Just move this to F&G

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Nothing about this scene indicates the slightest hint of Tier 1, let alone Tier 2. This is just a silly fourth wall break

Did you not see the cases of plot/reality manipulation i showed? No one on the opposition has actually adressed those

 

[Lonkitt]

Did you not see the cases of plot/reality manipulation i showed? No one on the opposition has actually adressed those

Nothing here suggests that either

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Possible Uses​

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
• Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.

Nothing here suggests that either

Neco arc literally writes ' Please create a route where Arcueid and I take down Ciel together during the Arc vs Ciel fight on day nine'

 

[Lonkitt]

Possible Uses​

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
• Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.

Neco arc literally writes ' Please create a route where Arcueid and I take down Ciel together during the Arc vs Ciel fight on day nine'

Neco-Arc doesn't even manipulate or create anything after writing that

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Neco-Arc doesn't even manipulate or create anything after writing that

She says she's going to redo day 8 and choose arcueid ( keep in mind, these choices dont even exist in the actual visual novel).

And then we see the aftermath after a short cut

 

[Lonkitt]

She says she's going to redo day 8 and choose arcueid ( keep in mind, these choices dont even exist in the actual visual novel).

And then we see the aftermath after a short cut

The dialogue after Neco-Arc says the whole "please make this route blah blah blah" make it clear Neco-Arc wasn't responsible for any plot and reality manipulation that created said routes

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The dialogue after Neco-Arc says the whole "please make this route blah blah blah" make it clear Neco-Arc wasn't responsible for any plot and reality manipulation that created said routes

Neco arc says the absence of this choice is a "bug that needs to get patched, stat", and Ciel implies the matter is Neco Arc's own choice, with her even saying " I warned you, didnt I?" to her afterwards.

 

[Lonkitt]

Neco arc says the absence of this choice is a "bug that needs to get patched, stat", and Ciel implies the matter is Neco Arc's own choice, with her even saying " I warned you, didnt I?" to her afterwards.

Her addressing the bug doesn't imply she has the ability to control anything. In fact, after she requests there be a new route, she's responded to with "No need to worry there. The heroine is yet to leave to stage"

Neco-Arc isn't creating or changing anything herself

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Disagree for reasons stated.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Her addressing the bug doesn't imply she has the ability to control anything. In fact, after she requests there be a new route, she's responded to with "No need to worry there. The heroine is yet to leave to stage"

It's sarcasm, as the heroine of the route is Ciel, which Neco-Arc wants to replace with Arcueid.

Neco-Arc isn't creating or changing anything herself

Ciel warns Neco-Arc that she cant guarantee what would happen to the city if they do fight her, which is highlighted in neco's reaction, stating that ciel went too far. Also if Neco-Arc didnt create those branches herself, then who did? no one exists there at that moment except for Neco-Arc, Ciel-Sensei, and occasionally Eco-Arc in some bad endings.

 

[Lonkitt]

It's sarcasm, as the heroine of the route is Ciel, which Neco-Arc wants to replace with Arcueid.

That didn't seem like sarcasm at all. Even if it was, it wouldn't have made it any different. Neco-Arc didn't do anything here

Ciel warns Neco-Arc that she cant guarantee what would happen to the city if they do fight her, which is highlighted in neco's reaction, stating that ciel went too far. Also if Neco-Arc didnt create those branches herself, then who did? no one exists there at that moment except for Neco-Arc, Ciel-Sensei, and occasionally Eco-Arc in some bad endings.

Nice headcanon. Still just a silly fourth wall break

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That didn't seem like sarcasm at all. Even if it was, it wouldn't have made it any different. Neco-Arc didn't do anything here

Nice headcanon. Still just a silly fourth wall break

-- Page 233, Offset 43185.
-- 次のルートのヒロインの座をかけてもいい、ぜ！
// Neco-Arc wants to take a bet here. "Let's bet the heroine role for next route on it" or something like that. Of course, this is all foreshadowing that the next bad end is the one where Arcueid gets killed, so Ciel wins the bet.
I'll stake the heroine role for the next route on it!
}

 

[Lonkitt]

-- Page 233, Offset 43185.
-- 次のルートのヒロインの座をかけてもいい、ぜ！
// Neco-Arc wants to take a bet here. "Let's bet the heroine role for next route on it" or something like that. Of course, this is all foreshadowing that the next bad end is the one where Arcueid gets killed, so Ciel wins the bet.
I'll stake the heroine role for the next route on it!
}

Again, I'm not seeing how this supports remotely anything in your proposal

Sorry. My disagreement's gonna stay firm here

 

[Jaften]

Nice evidence my guy

 

[Dereck03]

Nice evidence my guy

Now we can move this to F&G?

 

[KingNanaya]

just close this thread, for the love of god

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Micros
Thread.

 

[Lonkitt]

Closing it now