Galaxy Level Neco=Arc/Melty Blood

[Deleted member 15008]

I posted this in fun and games as a joke but now I'm starting to realize it's probably less of a joke and a legitimate thing.

Neco Arc destroys galaxy in her last arc drive super. Simple as that.

Whether or not it scales to other characters can be debated here although I think it should.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

oh my god

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Yes. Galaxy Level Tsukihime Remake/Melty Blood

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Bump

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

While I do agree, wouldn't the rating be more like [Insert Tier Here], [Insert New Tier Here] With Holy Grail Rocket/Funni Food Can

Or something like that? Also, would only this new Neco Arc from Type Lumina get the rating in a separate key or something?

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Yeah it’d only be Type Lumina/Tsuki Remake but as for the [Insert Tier Here] witb Holy Grail Rocket. That has yet to be decided since it can be debated that for withstanding the attack the other characters would get the same tier as Holy Grail Rocket. Which would then loop around since Neco arc directly fights them.

 

[Ayewale]

I am pretty sure she'd only get "[Insert tier here] with specific technique". I also don't know why or how you would scale them to each other. Correct me if I'm wrong but back when Pokken Tournament was considered canon/when we equalized nearly all Pokemon, we didn't scale Shadow Mewtwo's Synergy Burst to any other Pokemon. I'm also pretty sure Street Fighter characters don't get "Resistance to Soul Manip" because they can all survive the Raging Demon.

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Vary’s from fighting game to fighting games really from what I’ve seen during my time on the site. Although I’m a firm believer that unless it’s an instant kill move characters should scale to supers like for example in Under Night with Wagner’s Super Duper super and how everyone scales to that.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Yeah it’d only be Type Lumina/Tsuki Remake but as for the [Insert Tier Here] witb Holy Grail Rocket. That has yet to be decided since it can be debated that for withstanding the attack the other characters would get the same tier as Holy Grail Rocket. Which would then loop around since Neco arc directly fights them.

That is true that Lumi-Arc fights them physically, plus I could have sworn that Neco-Arcs are considered far weaker than the rest of the cast. Did Lumi-Arc have any dialogue or statements putting them on a similar level with the rest of the cast? If they're weaker, then the cast probably all upscale to anything Lumi Arc can do including the super.

Worst case scenario, the only people that would upscale to Lumi's super, would at most be the ones that canonically fight Lumi-Arc in story modes. Though honestly everyone should probably upscale unless this is deemed an gag feat/outlier that only Lumi-Arc scales to.

So, the regular Neco-Arcs and the ones summoned in battle would stay at their current ratings, while Lumi-Arc and the cast get the new rating via tanking the super.

 

[Livinmeme]

Vary’s from fighting game to fighting games really from what I’ve seen during my time on the site. Although I’m a firm believer that unless it’s an instant kill move characters should scale to supers like for example in Under Night with Wagner’s Super Duper super and how everyone scales to that.

Yeah scaling characters to arc drives, would mess the scaling as that would mean that everyone can tank shiki Death eyes, or arceuid full power and..... alot of top tier hax really

 

[Livinmeme]

That is true that Lumi-Arc fights them physically, plus I could have sworn that Neco-Arcs are considered far weaker than the rest of the cast. Did Lumi-Arc have any dialogue or statements putting them on a similar level with the rest of the cast? If they're weaker, then the cast probably all upscale to anything Lumi Arc can do including the super.

Worst case scenario, the only people that would upscale to Lumi's super, would at most be the ones that canonically fight Lumi-Arc in story modes. Though honestly everyone should probably upscale unless this is deemed an gag feat/outlier that only Lumi-Arc scales to.

So, the regular Neco-Arcs and the ones summoned in battle would stay at their current ratings, while Lumi-Arc and the cast get the new rating via tanking the super.

She canonically gets a massive powerup apperently with "Reboot power"

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Yeah scaling characters to arc drives, would mess the scaling as that would mean that everyone can tank shiki Death eyes, or arceuid full power and..... alot of top tier hax really

I’m mainly talking about raw AP and less Hax although you do bring up a good point.

 

[Livinmeme]

I’m mainly talking about raw AP and less Hax although you do bring up a good point.

Yeah basically the point is that saying that they cannonically tank last arc drive would mean that 99% of the cast is 1-C

 

[Paul_Frank]

This would be tier 1, not 3-B btw, destroying the entire galaxy would at the least involve destroying earth and other similarly higher dimensional planets and space

Its also pretty easy to just argue this as a joke or something that isn't applicable to tiering due to the fact that, well, the galaxy is very clearly still existing after her arc drive, with the earth intact and everything

Its pretty hard to try to argue it isn't a joke and is fine to scale with in fact. Its far beyond everything else Neco Arc can do without the 2nd magic, and is far above 99% of the people she hits it with that survive, by a very large amount. So scaling anyone to it, and then scaling it back to her base stats is even worse.

So imo its either just A. a joke (given the character's nature, other abilities, and the fact the earth and everything else is perfectly fine), or B. just a bright flash (again, given the fact that nothing is at all destroyed)

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Its pretty hard to try to argue it isn't a joke and is fine to scale with in fact. Its far beyond everything else Neco Arc can do without the 2nd magic, and is far above 99% of the people she hits it with that survive, by a very large amount. So scaling anyone to it, and then scaling it back to her base stats is even worse.

Well I mean it’s a fighting game. Tons of fighting games have attacks that seemingly destroy cities or the entire stage (Wagner’s for example) but return to it simply because they can’t just remove the stage and have the characters fight in a void or the rubble.

While I get what you’re saying why would this be the exception to that fact because that would also imply other fighting games with showy supers that scale to the characters shouldn’t be valid either.

This would be tier 1, not 3-B btw, destroying the entire galaxy would at the least involve destroying earth and other similarly higher dimensional planets and space

My fault og, I forgot about Fate scaling.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well I mean it’s a fighting game. Tons of fighting games have attacks that seemingly destroy cities or the entire stage (Wagner’s for example) but return to it simply because they can’t just remove the stage and have the characters fight in a void or the rubble.

While I get what you’re saying why would this be the exception to that fact because that would also imply other fighting games with showy supers that scale to the characters shouldn’t be valid either.

Yes, that's correct, fighting games where the super is a massive spectacle way above the character's actual shown and stated capabilities otherwise, and has a massive amount of damage done to surroundings which then is contradicted by everything being fine right after, are in fact usually not valid or used to then scale to everyone for surviving, or the character's base stats

Even ignoring that fact, the galaxy isn't really shown to be destroyed, its just light from the attack, and this is a character who is just meta and jokes incarnate (she literally summons Saber using FGO), so I feel like either of the interpretations of joke, or not actual destruction, have a bit more evidence going towards them than saying she nuked the galaxy despite her not being this level, the stage is fine, and that this scales to stuff.

 

[Livinmeme]

Immo just doing a flash ligth would be around Large planet or dwarf star

 

[Ayewale]

This would be tier 1, not 3-B btw, destroying the entire galaxy would at the least involve destroying earth and other similarly higher dimensional planets and space

Its also pretty easy to just argue this as a joke or something that isn't applicable to tiering due to the fact that, well, the galaxy is very clearly still existing after her arc drive, with the earth intact and everything

Its pretty hard to try to argue it isn't a joke and is fine to scale with in fact. Its far beyond everything else Neco Arc can do without the 2nd magic, and is far above 99% of the people she hits it with that survive, by a very large amount. So scaling anyone to it, and then scaling it back to her base stats is even worse.

So imo its either just A. a joke (given the character's nature, other abilities, and the fact the earth and everything else is perfectly fine), or B. just a bright flash (again, given the fact that nothing is at all destroyed)

It being a 'gag' doesn't make it any less of a feat, what does that even mean? At that point we should go ahead and nuke all the Looney Tunes profiles. It being a bright flash because the floor underneath the fighters wasn't destroyed also doesn't seem to make any sense, unless neco-arc is known for bright flashes.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It being a 'gag' doesn't make it any less of a feat, what does that even mean? At that point we should go ahead and nuke all the Looney Tunes profiles.

Yes, it does, because this isn't Looney Tunes, I'm not sure why that's always the defense for using gag feats in any given series, "but muh Looney Tunes". This isn't a joke cartoon where all that occur are gags and so you take them as feats. This is a mostly normal series, where a very clear gag occurs, showing something absurd, very clearly not serious in the slightest, and outside of the pay grade of the person who does it. Our references for common feats page literally encourages you to scrutinize gag feats more, because something done for a gag usually isn't consistent with something you can actually use for a given verse as, well, it was meant as a gag.

It's not a normal feat played up for the laughs, it's just a joke being taken as a feat. By the logic of "gags and jokes aren't less legitimate" then we should also use all the joke interview statements and such from Nasu, Takeuchi and co, and have passive death, bio and weather manip Touko, and then Neco Arc and Magical Amber above the Root, which we don't, as they're jokes, and contradictory to what is shown or said outside of the jokes (something which is also the case here).

Or for an example from another series, the mosquitoe Saitama couldn't kill should scale to him then yeah? Gags aren't less legitimate afterall. How about Bulma beating Kid Goku, or Chichi hurting Goku? We very commonly ignore gag feats when they're obviously gags and make no sense to use seriously.

It being a bright flash because the floor underneath the fighters wasn't destroyed also doesn't seem to make any sense, unless neco-arc is known for bright flashes.

It being a bright flash makes more sense when the stage isn't affected in any way, because idk if you realize right, the earth is in that galaxy that people are assuming was destroyed (all thats shown is light, nothing implying its destroyed either, this is by an attack that hit the earth too, not something even targeting the galaxy, and we've seen the results of this exact rocket being crashed from space before, and it did literally 0 damage to the planet). You'd honestly argue that her destroying the galaxy by accidentally dropping her food, and the earth being fine despite that, is the more likely interpretation from seeing nothing but a flash of light?

 

[Livinmeme]

Yes, it does, because this isn't Looney Tunes, I'm not sure why that's always the defense for using gag feats in any given series, "but muh Looney Tunes". This isn't a joke cartoon where all that occur are gags and so you take them as feats. This is a mostly normal series, where a very clear gag occurs, showing something absurd, very clearly not serious in the slightest, and outside of the pay grade of the person who does it. Our references for common feats page literally encourages you to scrutinize gag feats more, because something done for a gag usually isn't consistent with something you can actually use for a given verse as, well, it was meant as a gag.

It's not a normal feat played up for the laughs, it's just a joke being taken as a feat. By the logic of "gags and jokes aren't less legitimate" then we should also use all the joke interview statements and such from Nasu, Takeuchi and co, and have passive death, bio and weather manip Touko, and then Neco Arc and Magical Amber above the Root, which we don't, as they're jokes, and contradictory to what is shown or said outside of the jokes (something which is also the case here).

Or for an example from another series, the mosquitoe Saitama couldn't kill should scale to him then yeah? Gags aren't less legitimate afterall. How about Bulma beating Kid Goku, or Chichi hurting Goku? We very commonly ignore gag feats when they're obviously gags and make no sense to use seriously.

Those are two different types of toon feats, one is a feat that is a massive outlier, then one is made from a character who whole stick is being a joke (aka looney toones and neco arc), and that doesn't

It's not a normal feat played up for the laughs, it's just a joke being taken as a feat. By the logic of "gags and jokes aren't less legitimate" then we should also use all the joke interview statements and such from Nasu, Takeuchi and co, and have passive death, bio and weather manip Touko, and then Neco Arc and Magical Amber above the Root, which we don't, as they're jokes, and contradictory to what is shown or said outside of the jokes (something which is also the case here).

Those are so different isn¿t even funny. One is a massive outlier that breaks the scaling and is obviously a first type joke, the second is a thing that only scales to a specific character (because unless you want to give 99% of the cast resistance to shiki funny death manipulation based on arc drives)

 

[Paul_Frank]

Those are two different types of toon feats, one is a feat that is a massive outlier, then one is made from a character who whole stick is being a joke (aka looney toones and neco arc), and that doesn't


Those are so different isn¿t even funny. One is a massive outlier that breaks the scaling and is obviously a first type joke, the second is a thing that only scales to a specific character (because unless you want to give 99% of the cast resistance to shiki funny death manipulation based on arc drives)

Except the second is also a massive outlier that breaks scaling even if you try to say others don't scale to tanking the attack, because there are people that just scale above her, and not just physically, but scale above her to the point she'd need help to fight them, or thinks she outright can't win.

She wants to destroy the MB world for ignoring her for 10 years, but thought she needed Mash to accomplish that, having her there to help with the fighting and such. So Mash is better at helping destroy the MB world than her supposed galaxy nuking legitimate feat. Then we have her thinking she can only beat Ciel while she's on the ground, so Ciel is also above the output of this attack, as whether she's on the ground or not, a galaxy destroying attack would reach her, but Neco Arc doesn't think she can win and has to bait her down.

It'd also scale to her own durability and stuff anyway, as she notes that Neco Akiha who has the same everything as her, would have been an endless stalemate if Neco Arc wasn't used to fighting herself, which implies that this galaxy destroying attack couldn't have just killed either of them, otherwise there wouldn't be a stalemate. And people scale above her, so that scales it back to everyone anyway.

Even ignoring all the ways it can scale to others, it's a massive outlier for her. Her best feat, besides scaling to others in the game, and implying she can destroy a building with beams, is the Miyako route thing. Something she did with existing pieces of the route and the operation of parallel worlds she has from the second true magic.

So when those are her best showings, her coming in with a tier 1 attack via dropping tuna from the holy grail rocket is absolutely just far and beyond an outlier.

Also by your own logic of "Neco Arc was made to be a joke so it's all fine" then why do you then deny the Magical Amber and Neco Arc>root joke, wouldn't that be equally valid?

 

[Deleted member 15008]

Why aren't Neco Arc and magical amber scaled as the most powerful smh my head.

 

[Livinmeme]

Except the second is also a massive outlier that breaks scaling even if you try to say others don't scale to tanking the attack, because there are people that just scale above her, and not just physically, but scale above her to the point she'd need help to fight them, or thinks she outright can't win.

She wants to destroy the MB world for ignoring her for 10 years, but thought she needed Mash to accomplish that, having her there to help with the fighting and such. So Mash is better at helping destroy the MB world than her supposed galaxy nuking legitimate feat. Then we have her thinking she can only beat Ciel while she's on the ground, so Ciel is also above the output of this attack, as whether she's on the ground or not, a galaxy destroying attack would reach her, but Neco Arc doesn't think she can win and has to bait her down.

It'd also scale to her own durability and stuff anyway, as she notes that Neco Akiha who has the same everything as her, would have been an endless stalemate if Neco Arc wasn't used to fighting herself, which implies that this galaxy destroying attack couldn't have just killed either of them, otherwise there wouldn't be a stalemate. And people scale above her, so that scales it back to everyone anyway.

Even ignoring all the ways it can scale to others, it's a massive outlier for her. Her best feat, besides scaling to others in the game, and implying she can destroy a building with beams, is the Miyako route thing. Something she did with existing pieces of the route and the operation of parallel worlds she has from the second true magic.

So when those are her best showings, her coming in with a tier 1 attack via dropping tuna from the holy grail rocket is absolutely just far and beyond an outlier

And again

1. That is a technique, that only scale to neco
2. Yeah neco arc is only doing pseudo pshycologicoal bullshit there, she alredy has said quote around that. Cmon even if one of her quotes she didn't know what she was reaching with her pseudo boosting quote
3. I could ironically argue that neco couldn't just trow a 1-C atack because she is somehow limited to game mechanics

 

[Paul_Frank]

And again

1. That is a technique, that only scale to neco
2. Yeah neco arc is only doing pseudo pshycologicoal bullshit there, she alredy has said quote around that. Cmon even if one of her quotes she didn't know what she was reaching with her pseudo boosting quote
3. I could ironically argue that neco couldn't just trow a 1-C atack because she is somehow limited to game mechanics

Nothing here addresses the things I posted above to show that it in fact does cause issues with scaling, and is an joke outlier for her own feats, besides 3 (1 ignores the fact that I gave reasons it would in fact, scale to people besides Neco), so that's all I'll address.

You'd actually argue that Neco Arc simply can not use her own rocketship that she's used in other media, because it's game mechanics, and so her 1-C attack couldn't be used in any situation aside from when we use it as a last arc, as a way to avoid all the inconsistencies and scaling issues? Guess we can't even put it on the profile, we don't list game mechanics on files

I'd oppose that as its very clear she in fact can use her abilities and isn't limited by game mechanics or something, in fact the whole boss rush mode kinda shows that, she was controlling and dictating the entire mode, the game mechanics clearly don't limit her. That argument also falls short in that the Akiha fight (which was used to show how it'd result in scaling for everyone either way), is like, an in game fight, and she says that in game fight should have been a perpetual stalemate, meaning what I said above about that meaning the galaxy busting cat food is not enough to kill still applies, meaning it scales to her, she scales to others, etc.

Like, even if you get super hung up on, and defensive about gag feats for whatever reason, this isn't some isolated ability that wouldn't scale to anything, even if you didn't scale people to being hit by it and is a massive outlier for the character doing it, as her only other feat anywhere near that level, required the fragments and other futures to already exist, and a hax ability, not just her raw power.

In fact to make matters worse, it's actually explicitly noted that Lumi-Arc (this one) isn't even stronger than the original Neco Arc. It's directly stated that her specs going from 0:10 to 5:5 means nothing at all has changed regarding her power

 

[Livinmeme]

You'd actually argue that Neco Arc simply can not use her own rocketship that she's used in other media, because it's game mechanics, and so her 1-C attack couldn't be used in any situation aside from when we use it as a last arc, as a way to avoid all the inconsistencies and scaling issues? Guess we can't even put it on the profile, we don't list game mechanics on files

I am not saying that, what i am saying is that she apperently didn't use the rocket, and you can't scale arc drives because that would be a hell for scaling

I'd oppose that as its very clear she in fact can use her abilities and isn't limited by game mechanics or something, in fact the whole boss rush mode kinda shows that, she was controlling and dictating the entire mode, the game mechanics clearly don't limit her. That argument also falls short in that the Akiha fight (which was used to show how it'd result in scaling for everyone either way), is like, an in game fight, and she says that in game fight should have been a perpetual stalemate, meaning what I said above about that meaning the galaxy busting cat food is not enough to kill still applies, meaning it scales to her, she scales to others, etc.

I mean yeah the meta character is doing meta things, shocker

whole boss rush mode

Like how she got her ass beaten, or how she didn't even got to figth, or how preparing a pseudo mortal kombat death matchs is nothing really special. Specially when every character was there because their own agencies

Like, even if you get super hung up on, and defensive about gag feats for whatever reason, this isn't some isolated ability that wouldn't scale to anything, even if you didn't scale people to being hit by it and is a massive outlier for the character doing it, as her only other feat anywhere near that level, required the fragments and other futures to already exist, and a hax ability, not just her raw power.

That is not how outliers works, i don't care if a dog with a gun came out of nowhere and shoot to death arceuid at her peak, changing the tsukihime story for ever that still wouldn't be a outlier for the dog. You are literally missusing terms, outliers is not "character does big feat higher that every feat seem for now" outliers are "character big feats get contradicted by several ones"

In fact to make matters worse, it's actually explicitly noted that Lumi-Arc (this one) isn't even stronger than the original Neco Arc. It's directly stated that her specs going from 0:10 to 5:5 means nothing at all has changed regarding her power

1. Didn't you say that neco arc isn't limited by game mechanics, except when she directly mention it. Weird rigth
2. Eh.... the wiki has different keys about neco so that is something wrong in the profile i guess...

 

[Livinmeme]

Oh also we don't even scale character from tanking last arcs in gameplay so that is another one. Also you partially lied with the neco arc being the strongest one

Spoiler: Japanese

Collapse[v] Comptiq 2007-05 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A: Q: Who's the top three strongest characters?​
Ｑ：奈須きのこ作品全部を通して（空の境界、月姫、Fate、DDD）最強キャラトップ3を決めるとしたら誰になりますか？（石川県／聖なるパンダ） Ａ：マジカルアンバー（ルビーちゃん）。ネコアルク。虎。―――ではなく。 真面目な話なら1.アルクェイド、2.“両儀式”、3.原初の悪魔でしょうか。（サーヴァント除く

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?

Spoiler: English

A

Spoiler: English

Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.
Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants):

He directly states than that wasn't true

 

[Paul_Frank]

Oh also we don't even scale character from tanking last arcs in gameplay so that is another one. Also you partially lied with the neco arc being the strongest one

Spoiler: Japanese

Collapse[v] Comptiq 2007-05 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A: Q: Who's the top three strongest characters?​
Ｑ：奈須きのこ作品全部を通して（空の境界、月姫、Fate、DDD）最強キャラトップ3を決めるとしたら誰になりますか？（石川県／聖なるパンダ） Ａ：マジカルアンバー（ルビーちゃん）。ネコアルク。虎。―――ではなく。 真面目な話なら1.アルクェイド、2.“両儀式”、3.原初の悪魔でしょうか。（サーヴァント除く

Q: In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?

Spoiler: English

A

Spoiler: English

Magical Amber, Neco Arc, and Tiger. Well, not really.
Seriously, it's Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants):

He directly states than that wasn't true

Yes, he says that it's a joke. I also noted it was a joke and thus not used in my comment, that was in fact, the entire point. I'm not seeing your argument here kek

I am not saying that, what i am saying is that she apperently didn't use the rocket, and you can't scale arc drives because that would be a hell for scaling

But can you prove she wouldn't have even thought of the rocket in all those cases where she says those things. When she says Akiha was equal to her and thus the fight would have went on forever, was she just omitting the existence of this attack, and they don't scale to it? When she mentioned how she needed Ciel on the ground to beat her, was she again just omitting the attack? The issue, as I've said multiple times, is you don't even need to scale people to tanking it in gameplay, because statements imply it scaling to people, or Neco herself

I mean yeah the meta character is doing meta things, shocker

Apparently it is, given your entire argument is that the meta character who does meta things is limited by game mechanics and can't use her abilities

Like how she got her ass beaten, or how she didn't even got to figth, or how preparing a pseudo mortal kombat death matchs is nothing really special. Specially when every character was there because their own agencies

Are you okay? Preparing pseudo mortal kombat death matches in a route she created with characters who were different than normal, getting to narrate it, and the entire mode before the route, and tell us the story, get Miyako included in the game etc, totally nothing special I swear :copium:

That is not how outliers works, i don't care if a dog with a gun came out of nowhere and shoot to death arceuid at her peak, changing the tsukihime story for ever that still wouldn't be a outlier for the dog. You are literally missusing terms, outliers is not "character does big feat higher that every feat seem for now" outliers are "character big feats get contradicted by several ones"

That's exactly how it works kek. "Character has only feats far, far below this one, and one conditional 'feat' by using hax that is anywhere near this, therefore this feat that is several infinities higher than everything else they do and can possibly scale to, is an outlier"

1. Didn't you say that neco arc isn't limited by game mechanics, except when she directly mention it. Weird rigth

???? That has nothing to do with game mechanics lol, thats talking about her strength. She's being called the same strength as the other Neco Arc from pre remake MB, idk how you misconstrued this as game mechanics (because mechanics wise she's definitely not the same strength)

2. Eh.... the wiki has different keys about neco so that is something wrong in the profile i guess...

The keys aren't for OG and remake, the keys are for OG Melty and the classroom scenes in Tsukihime

 

[Paul_Frank]

So I can avoid having to continue responding to those copium arguments, let me just summarize stuff into one last post

The "feat" is either a gag, and unusable here, or an absurd outlier, and unusable here

For the "gags and jokes are equally valid for tiering and should be used all the time" people, here's why it's an outlier either way

• Neco Arc is explicitly the same strength as pre remake, this is important to note for later
• This attack is 1-C in AP, something several infinities above her normal 6-C scaling, and the only even somewhat close feat is making the Miyako route
• The above feat has caveats to it, including needing pieces that already existed, and use of the 2nd true magic, and is just hax
• Even ignoring tanking it in game, when used, nothing happens to the planet at all
• Ignoring that as well, it'd still scale to others (who also have no business scaling to 1-C) anyway. Neco Akiha and Neco Arc have the same abilities, strength, etc, and thus would have fought endlessly forever if Neco Arc wasn't used to fighting Neco Arcs (came down to skill and not abilities or power). As Neco Arc is talking about all her abilities, this means she factored in her own rocket of course, and that means this tier 1 attack wouldn't have instantly killed her if used, or killed Akiha if used, because otherwise the fight wouldn't go on endlessly
• She, or her stuff, also have to be able to somewhat withstand the force, as her rocket doesn't leave the milkyway that was "nuked"
• Neco Arc needed Mash to help her destroy the MB world, that was her entire reason for bringing her, needless to say that means she thought Mash was better for this task than whatever she could do alone (I'd argue though, that with this very real galaxy nuking attack, she'd have an easy time doing it alone)
• Neco Arc lures Ciel Arc to the ground, as she only thinks she can beat Ciel on the ground. Something that, wouldn't you know it, contradicts the idea she has a super huge galaxy nuke.
• Neco Arc at the end of her arcade, then notes how she wants an army of servants to defeat the MB world, further cementing the fact she, you know, might not be able to nuke it
• Going back to how she's explicitly the same level as og MB Neco Arc (and the same one, just with a model update), we get even better scaling memes going on to show just how much of an outlier it is, like this rocket being the same as it was in Carnival Phantasm, where it crashes from space and doesn't even penetrate the sand too much.
• She's explicitly easily beaten by Ciel given Teach Me Ciel Sensei, a Ciel who is on the level of servants.
• She is weaker than Neco Arc Chaos, who is equal to a machine that can't even destroy the planet and has a small impact explicitly

And this is just some of the things that show that even in the case where you say it isn't a gag, or use it despite being a gag, where you argue people don't scale to it via tanking it, it's still an absurd outlier for the character, would scale to others (the Akiha and Neco Ciel thing, along with the fact that she was inside the ship when the galaxy was destroyed), and is an absurd outlier for them too

 

[Livinmeme]

But can you prove she wouldn't have even thought of the rocket in all those cases where she says those things. When she says Akiha was equal to her and thus the fight would have went on forever, was she just omitting the existence of this attack, and they don't scale to it? When she mentioned how she needed Ciel on the ground to beat her, was she again just omitting the attack? The issue, as I've said multiple times, is you don't even need to scale people to tanking it in gameplay, because statements imply it scaling to people, or Neco herself

Considering we don't considere canon they using arc drives against each other yes (figthing game logic)

That's exactly how it works kek. "Character has only feats far, far below this one, and one conditional 'feat' by using hax that is anywhere near this, therefore this feat that is several infinities higher than everything else they do and can possibly scale to, is an outlier"

No? You literally said what i said outliers weren't especifically. Did you even read it

???? That has nothing to do with game mechanics lol, thats talking about her strength. She's being called the same strength as the other Neco Arc from pre remake MB, idk how you misconstrued this as game mechanics (because mechanics wise she's definitely not the same strength)

I alredy explained that man

The keys aren't for OG and remake, the keys are for OG Melty and the classroom scenes in Tsukihime

Make more sense

 

[Livinmeme]

So I can avoid having to continue responding to those copium arguments, let me just summarize stuff into one last post

The "feat" is either a gag, and unusable here, or an absurd outlier, and unusable here

For the "gags and jokes are equally valid for tiering and should be used all the time" people, here's why it's an outlier either way

• Neco Arc is explicitly the same strength as pre remake, this is important to note for later
• This attack is 1-C in AP, something several infinities above her normal 6-C scaling, and the only even somewhat close feat is making the Miyako route
• The above feat has caveats to it, including needing pieces that already existed, and use of the 2nd true magic, and is just hax
• Even ignoring tanking it in game, when used, nothing happens to the planet at all
• Ignoring that as well, it'd still scale to others (who also have no business scaling to 1-C) anyway. Neco Akiha and Neco Arc have the same abilities, strength, etc, and thus would have fought endlessly forever if Neco Arc wasn't used to fighting Neco Arcs (came down to skill and not abilities or power). As Neco Arc is talking about all her abilities, this means she factored in her own rocket of course, and that means this tier 1 attack wouldn't have instantly killed her if used, or killed Akiha if used, because otherwise the fight wouldn't go on endlessly
• She, or her stuff, also have to be able to somewhat withstand the force, as her rocket doesn't leave the milkyway that was "nuked"
• Neco Arc needed Mash to help her destroy the MB world, that was her entire reason for bringing her, needless to say that means she thought Mash was better for this task than whatever she could do alone (I'd argue though, that with this very real galaxy nuking attack, she'd have an easy time doing it alone)
• Neco Arc lures Ciel Arc to the ground, as she only thinks she can beat Ciel on the ground. Something that, wouldn't you know it, contradicts the idea she has a super huge galaxy nuke.
• Neco Arc at the end of her arcade, then notes how she wants an army of servants to defeat the MB world, further cementing the fact she, you know, might not be able to nuke it
• Going back to how she's explicitly the same level as og MB Neco Arc (and the same one, just with a model update), we get even better scaling memes going on to show just how much of an outlier it is, like this rocket being the same as it was in Carnival Phantasm, where it crashes from space and doesn't even penetrate the sand too much.
• She's explicitly easily beaten by Ciel given Teach Me Ciel Sensei, a Ciel who is on the level of servants.
• She is weaker than Neco Arc Chaos, who is equal to a machine that can't even destroy the planet and has a small impact explicitly

And this is just some of the things that show that even in the case where you say it isn't a gag, or use it despite being a gag, where you argue people don't scale to it via tanking it, it's still an absurd outlier for the character, would scale to others (the Akiha and Neco Ciel thing, along with the fact that she was inside the ship when the galaxy was destroyed), and is an absurd outlier for them too

And again we considere characters NOT using last drives unless specifiied on canon, we alredy treath several figthing games like that

 

[Deleted member 15008]

I don't see how this is an Outlier at all to be completely honest. Sure there are statements from within the games among other things that say "Oh yeah, I'm weaker than x character". But how exactly is this an outlier? If anything it would just apply some new scaling rather than be an outlier.

Going back to how she's explicitly the same level as og MB Neco Arc (and the same one, just with a model update), we get even better scaling memes going on to show just how much of an outlier it is, like this rocket being the same as it was in Carnival Phantasm, where it crashes from space and doesn't even penetrate the sand too much.

Carnival Phantasm and Melty Blood are two completely different things and just because the rocket looks similar to the one in Carnival Phantasm doesn't mean it's the exact same and that it's as weak as it. That's just making assumptions.

• Neco Arc needed Mash to help her destroy the MB world, that was her entire reason for bringing her, needless to say that means she thought Mash was better for this task than whatever she could do alone (I'd argue though, that with this very real galaxy nuking attack, she'd have an easy time doing it alone)
• Neco Arc lures Ciel Arc to the ground, as she only thinks she can beat Ciel on the ground. Something that, wouldn't you know it, contradicts the idea she has a super huge galaxy nuke.
• Neco Arc at the end of her arcade, then notes how she wants an army of servants to defeat the MB world, further cementing the fact she, you know, might not be able to nuke it

This makes 0 sense. This is the equivalent of saying "Ben has Alien X why doesn't he just always use that." or "Beerus has the Hakai why doesn't he just kill all threats immediately." All this stuff is in the story mode and there wouldn't be a story if Neco-Arc just said "Oh let me nuke the galaxy with this rocket I have."

• This attack is 1-C in AP, something several infinities above her normal 6-C scaling, and the only even somewhat close feat is making the Miyako route

Why does this matter? I've seen characters go from tier 9 or 8 to 1 before.

• Even ignoring tanking it in game, when used, nothing happens to the planet at all

This makes 0 sense. When Shiki uses his Last Arc the character doesn't just instantly die because he cut their lines or when Arc does the Moon Drop it doesn't destroy everything around it. Understanding that the game you're playing is a fighting game is important.

 

[Paul_Frank]

And again we considere characters NOT using last drives unless specifiied on canon, we alredy treath several figthing games like that

No, when a character is acting like they are unable to beat someone at all, or that none of their moves would end a fight, we don't just act like their super move doesn't exist anymore for that moment. That'd be like taking any similar statements in Fate, and ignoring the existence of their NP because that's a super move.

There's a difference between not assuming they spam their super, and not assuming their move exists for any statements unless shown (what you're saying)

I don't see how this is an Outlier at all to be completely honest. Sure there are statements from within the games among other things that say "Oh yeah, I'm weaker than x character". But how exactly is this an outlier? If anything it would just apply some new scaling rather than be an outlier.

Because those X characters are explicitly far, far beneath that level, that's the issue. Its an outlier because its the only feat around that level for some of them. Like if one character has a bunch of lower end things and that's their best stuff, and then suddenly one thing scales them to a god tier in a verse, you don't usually just accept that as "new scaling" that's just an outlier unless there's an absurd amount of context that makes it apply

Carnival Phantasm and Melty Blood are two completely different things and just because the rocket looks similar to the one in Carnival Phantasm doesn't mean it's the exact same and that it's as weak as it. That's just making assumptions.

I, huh? That's copium beyond all reasonable measures. "The identical rockets, piloted by the same person, with the same graffiti, is not the same rocket" this is despite not only the character being the same one, but also not really even having the ability to upgrade it (she states she's been ignored for the past 10 years, which she has)

This makes 0 sense. This is the equivalent of saying "Ben has Alien X why doesn't he just always use that." or "Beerus has the Hakai why doesn't he just kill all threats immediately." All this stuff is in the story mode and there wouldn't be a story if Neco-Arc just said "Oh let me nuke the galaxy with this rocket I have."

No, its quite a bit different. Its more like "the person who wants to do X doesn't do X with their ability that's very capable of doing it, and its not a one off thing, this is the case multiple times in a row". I could maybe see this Alien X equivalence if it was only "oh why didn't she just nuke the MB world" (doesn't really even work there, because Ben and Beerus both have reasons for not doing what you said, Neco Arc has numerous reasons to do it, and none to not), but no, it then goes into the Neco Ciel thing, and into the Akiha thing, etc

Why does this matter? I've seen characters go from tier 9 or 8 to 1 before.

Yes, and that's either with multiple feats, or a lot of supporting context. This has neither, this is "okay so there's this one attack with nothing supporting it besides visuals, and a ton of things against it being anywhere near what the character can actually do, lets use it." Its the equivalent of if a character who consistently tops off at wall busting, suddenly just had a one off statement that they could bust an infinite dimensional space or something. You don't just go "well, guess they're high 1-B" without a very good reason, that's how outliers work

This makes 0 sense. When Shiki uses his Last Arc the character doesn't just instantly die because he cut their lines or when Arc does the Moon Drop it doesn't destroy everything around it. Understanding that the game you're playing is a fighting game is important.

See, the issue with ignoring the visuals because "muh fighting game, wouldn't be balanced so lets handwave it" is that, funnily enough, the entire feat is purely the visual of one frame. You can't argue to ignore the visuals in one case because its a fighting game, but then use them to get a feat. I could maybe understand if we saw at least some temporary superficial damage to the stage like other arc drives (debris existing for a few seconds at least), or actually saw the galaxy being destroyed, but no, all we see is a flash of light in the galaxy, and then we land on earth again. I'd be more of a fan of ignoring the lack of damage to the stage if we at least actually saw idk, the galaxy actually explode (which we don't), or maybe at least some rocks flying up from the damage this should have inflicted.

The difference between this and Shiki's last arc is that Shiki's last arc is an ability we know the potency and everything of, and we aren't trying to use as a feat when all there are are visuals that don't support themselves or the feat, same thing with Arc's moondrop. In this case, this is an attack that is trying to be argued as an actual feat, that then has contradictory visual effects if we assume the galaxy exploded despite that not being shown, additionally said attack is way beyond the paygrade of the character doing it, and has numerous issues in general with scaling, even if you try to handwave everything away by saying that people don't scale to tanking it in game.

 

[Skeletonslayer56]

Yes, and that's either with multiple feats, or a lot of supporting context. This has neither, this is "okay so there's this one attack with nothing supporting it besides visuals, and a ton of things against it being anywhere near what the character can actually do, lets use it." Its the equivalent of if a character who consistently tops off at wall busting, suddenly just had a one off statement that they could bust an infinite dimensional space or something. You don't just go "well, guess they're high 1-B" without a very good reason, that's how outliers work

Master Roshi disproves this, his Kamehameha is shown destroying the moon yet he does have a higher tier while using it. His other attacks come nowhere close to this kind of power. Seemingly average fighters can have more powerful moves, this one is just a very powerful one.

No, its quite a bit different. Its more like "the person who wants to do X doesn't do X with their ability that's very capable of doing it, and its not a one off thing, this is the case multiple times in a row". I could maybe see this Alien X equivalence if it was only "oh why didn't she just nuke the MB world" (doesn't really even work there, because Ben and Beerus both have reasons for not doing what you said, Neco Arc has numerous reasons to do it, and none to not), but no, it then goes into the Neco Ciel thing, and into the Akiha thing, etc

Neco Arc would likely not want to blow up the galaxy during a fight, her goal isn't to just blow up everything. This sort of attack would likely be a last resort for Neco Arc.

the galaxy actually explode (which we don't), or maybe at least some rocks flying up from the damage this should have inflicted.

The visuals and sound make it very clear that an explosion occurred, there isn't much an argument here for you, the developers were not going to make an entirely new stage just because the funny cat did a super, they are not a huge company with the time to do that.