OPM Dragon level threats downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"No evidence"

Literally what?

Gouketsu's feat is nothing really that special among Dragons and people like Rover and ENW are clearly supposed to be stronger, same with Elder Centipede imo.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I thought most Dragons were At least Low 7-B+ or outright 7-B anyways because of Hundred Eyes.

Literally what?

Yes, none. Which is why a lot of people lost a 7-A rating because it was agreed upon that no one has evidence to scale to Goketsu.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I didn't even notice, but the recalc was accepted. The feat is now Low 7-B for Goketsu.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

why does the new calc take precedent over the one you did?

 

[Kin201]

Gouketsu is a poor Dragon after all. So, I guess he should be in the same tier as the likes of Choze or Suiryu, despite the fact that he's far far more powerful than them combined ?

 

[Qawsedf234]

why does the new calc take precedent over the one you did?

It doesn't persay, so we have to pick which one is proper to use. The one I redid is based on the premise that the cloud Goketsu blew away is just as thick as the one in Suiryu's feat, the one in the new calc does not make that assumption which is why its about 30 times lower.

Generally speaking I tend to back stuff that requires less assumptions and the original's number is based on a rather large one in terms of cloud thickness. But as before we decide which one should be used here.

Gouketsu is a poor Dragon after all. So, I guess he should be in the same tier as the likes of Choze or Suiryu, despite the fact that he's far far more powerful than them combined ?

Nah, he has the scaling chain for 7-B.

• Octopus -> Bakuzan -> Goketsu with zero effort -> Serious Goketsu (7-B)

Or

• Octopus -> Carnage Kabuto -> Carnage Mode Kabuto -> Serious Goketsu

It's not like say, Ugly. Who has a much more basic scaling chain.

 

[Damage3245]

Btw if Hundred-Eyes Octopus, a (admittedly very strong) Demon level monster is Small City level+, no Dragon should be ranked the same as him, they should all be above him.

To be fair Hundred-Eyes Octopus is a Small City level+ creature pretty much purely down to its immense size. It is one of the biggest creatures in the entire manga, after Beefcake, Elder Centipede and the Snowman.

The most we could say is that they should be likely above him until they have demonstrated superior feats.

 

[Kin201]

The scaling chain seems fine, then I want to ask if is there a possibility for the following dragons should have "At least Low 7-B" key. They are :

Nyan, GaleWind and Hellfire in their monster form, Melzagald, Groribas, Gums, Half monster Garou

Does it sound good ?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah they should all be "At least Low 7-B+" unless I'm forgetting something for the ninjas.

 

[Kin201]

Yeah they should all be "At least Low 7-B+" unless I'm forgetting something for the ninjas.

You implied they should have higher key for the feat that being able to harm Flashy Flash ? "At least Low 7-B+, possibly higher" or something like that ?

 

[Tetsucabrah]

The cadres scale above Bakuzan due to Gouketsu's statement about there being a lot of monsters stronger than him, clearly referring to the cadres. So their chains do have a couple steps.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Any cadre without a long scaling chain getting "At least Low 7-B+, likely higher" is fine with me.

 

[Kin201]

I think the concept of all the cadres should at least be "At least Low 7-B+" is fine. I don't remember Gouketsu had mentioned stuff about Bakuzan could become an executive if he join them. So only Bakuzan is considered the weakest Dragon level here, I guess. Can I apply the changes to all of them ?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Fine with me. The gap being under 2x is enough to warrant the at least if nothing else.

 

[Kin201]

The scaling chain seems fine, then I want to ask if is there a possibility for the following dragons should have "At least Low 7-B" key. They are :
Nyan, GaleWind and Hellfire in their monster form, Melzagald, Groribas, Gums, Half monster Garou

Does it sound good ?

I've upgraded them and some other involved. But you should check again for sure, if there's a problem with my edits. I'd appreciate if someone properly update them again if something wrong with my edits

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Yes, none. Which is why a lot of people lost a 7-A rating because it was agreed upon that no one has evidence to scale to Goketsu."

I mean, literally what.

What is the evidence that Gouketsu is a tier higher than all the other cadres including those with better feats and scaling?

 

[ByAsura]

Isn't Gouketsu where he is specifically because his feats are better than the others?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't Gouketsu where he is specifically because his feats are better than the others?

"What we think is Gouketsu's punch makes some poorly drawn clouds split in a panel" isn't a better feat than what we have from Overgrown Rover and Evil Natural Water. VSBW is literally the only place on the planet that thinks Gouketsu is not only the strongest Cadre but also a tier above all the other ones. That should tell you a lot.

Nothing in the story ever points out to Gouketsu being the strongest Cadre. Nothing whatsoever. It's just this fixation with calcs and "muh feats" over reasonable scaling and presumed comparable levels that is consistenly holding back our One Punch Man accuracy.

 

[Damage3245]

Feats and calcs are the highest priority for any profile, as it should be.

Much better than relying on pure head canon.

 

[PandarianOda]

I agree with damage, qaws and asura.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Feats and calcs are the highest priority for any profile, as it should be.
Much better than relying on pure head canon.

Let me explain something to you, Damage. What is shown / implied by the story isn't headcanon. It is not headcanon to say that Overgrown Rover and Evil Natural Water are the strongest Cadres, they are outright stated and shown to be so.

 

[PandarianOda]

Are they stated to be? Also are there perhaps reasons why they would be that dont rely on pure strength? Such as Natural waters resilience over his actual AP?

I remember the rover quote not being 'hes the strongest cadre EVER' but 'I still have a secret weapon' or something along the lines of such

Edit: actually it's not even that. The context is psykos begging for anyone to help, then remembering rover is there and then getting no response

 

[Antvasima]

I am inclined to agree with Matthew. It doesn't make sense for Gouketsu to be so much stronger than most of the cadres.

Anyway, we need quick help from some calc group members to decide which Gouketsu calc that should be used before the prolonged content revision thread shutdown after April 14.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

I also agree with Matt.

 

[Kin201]

So I guess the other cadres should also scale to Gouketsu too, because Matt and some people thought they shouldn't be that weaker than him. Let's see what ByAsura,Damage,Qaws think about it again, If they agree, I suppose It's fine

 

[PandarianOda]

I dont really see why they would scale to gokuetsu if they literally have nothing other than a title put to them. If gokuetsu was stated to be the weakest cadre? Then absolutely they should all scale to him. However Matt keeps mentioning these statements without actually showing them and I just read through like 40 chapters and the closest thing to his latest reply about rover is... rover being called for help when no one else was responding.

Evil natural water also isnt stated to be the strongest cadre anywhere I'm seeing in the manga.

All the cadre's should scale above lower dragons- but why would they all scale to someone who we don't know whose actual level or ranking in the cadre?

It's like scaling pig god to tatsu just cause both are s class.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask some calc group members to help us out here?

VS Battles Staff

 

[Damage3245]

> What is shown / implied by the story isn't headcanon. It is not headcanon to say that Overgrown Rover and Evil Natural Water are the strongest Cadres, they are outright stated and shown to be so.

Nowhere is it stated, to my knowledge, that Overgrown Rover and Evil Natural Water are the strongest cadres.

Pandarian is correct; if Gouketsu was stated to be the weakest Cadre then you'd have an argument for scaling the others to him.

But until then it's like trying to argue that every S-Class Hero should be as fast as Atomic Samurai or as strong as Bang. It's a baseless argument based on the disbelief that one character could be more powerful than other characters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So I guess the other cadres should also scale to Gouketsu too, because Matt and some people thought they shouldn't be that weaker than him. Let's see what ByAsura,Damage,Qaws think about it again, If they agree, I suppose It's fine

The Low 7-B feat, which is performed by a Demon level guy, is only x20 times weaker than Gouketsu's own feat. Conversely, we have another Low 7-B feat performed by a Demon level guy, which is in itself only x10 times weaker than Gouketsu's feat. And, more importantly, at 3.3 Megatons is only about x2 times weaker than what is required for 7-B

Between them we have Bakuzan, who's a Dragon level threat, and thus obviously stronger than either Demon, but he's still nowhere near the level of the Cadres (Gouketsu stopped him with one finger) and stated that there are several monsters in the Monster Association who were way stronger than he was.

This is partially why I say having Gouketsu be an entire order of magnitude above all the other Cadres is ridiculous. The scaling gap where they should all fit is far too narrow for them not to be on the same Tier as Gouketsu, specially when coupled with the fact that Gouketsu is never stated to be the strongest Cadre, nor even being among the strongest Cadre, and at least two (if not three) Cadres get way more story hype than he ever does. Gouketsu is, after all, not one of the Cadres Gyoro Gyoro has trouble controling.

Because of all this and more, I think all of the Cadres should be ranked as "Likely 7-B"

 

[Damage3245]

@Matthew; it is only stated to my knowledge that Gyoro Gyoro has trouble controlling Evil Natural Water, and that can just be down to it not being a conscious rational creature but a being of pure instinct and it reacts to hostility.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew; it is only stated to my knowledge that Gyoro Gyoro has trouble controlling Evil Natural Water, and that can just be down to it not being a conscious rational creature but a being of pure instinct and it reacts to hostility.

It's also stated around the Garou fight with it that they have trouble controlling Rover as well.

Also, a serious question: Do you believe that no Cadre is even only x2 twice as strong as the Octopus?

 

[Damage3245]

Do you remember which chapter the statement for Rover took place?

And I think that the Octopus is especially destructive compared to typical Demons. I cannot say how big the gap has to be between it and Dragon level monsters such as the cadres.

We're likely going to get more feats for the remaining cadres in the next few manga chapters. I wouldn't mind waiting to rate them properly until that happens.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that Matthew makes sense.

 

[Damage3245]

Sure, he makes sense, but some of his points are flawed.

Gouketsu not being among the monsters highlighted as being difficult to control doesn't mean that he's weaker than them. He could just be loyal to the Monster Association and there is therefore no difficulty in controlling him at all.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"And I think that the Octopus is especially destructive compared to typical Demons. I cannot say how big the gap has to be between it and Dragon level monsters such as the cadres."

You gave me a non-answer. You simply dodged the question...

So I'll repeat:

a) Would you agree that, as a stated Dragon level monster, Bakuzan should be stronger than the Octopus? Yes or no. b) Would you agree that, given how the Cadres are explicitly stronger than Bakuzan, they two should be way Octopus. Rather, they should be way above? Yes or no.

Denying the Cadres being "Likely 7-B" is being so stubborn that you refuse to even accept that the most hyped group of Dragon level monsters in the series should even be twice stronger than a Demon level monster who only shows up for two chapters.

 

[PandarianOda]

The statement of evil natural water doesnt really represent it as being strong: especially since its followed by said demon saying how even though its hard to control its still a cadre due to its strength. So like the 'controlling' seems to just be because of its like basic structure of 'reacts to hostility' since if it was because of how strong evil natural water was they wouldnt have then explained how hes strong outside of that.

Also the rover vs garou fight is 92 - 94 or so and theres no statement about how hard to control rover is but im gonna keep going forward to see.

 

[Damage3245]

Bakuzan is likely stronger than the Octopus, yes, but that doesn't justify a 2x leap. Likewise the Cadres are stronger than Bakuzan but that doesn't justify a 2x leap either.

"Hype" doesn't justify their stats. They just don't have the feats for it.

At least Low 7-B+ sounds a lot more accurate with what we have to work with.

 

[PandarianOda]

Also I would argue Gokuetsu is actually supposed to be relatively strong in the cadre's cause orochi takes note of him and the death of both him and elder centipede when confronting saitama; which well considering orochi and his obsession with strength seems to me at least imply he is infact a pretty big deal


Chapter 108 btw for reference

 

[NikHelton]

So I guess the other cadres should also scale to Gouketsu too, because Matt and some people thought they shouldn't be that weaker than him. Let's see what ByAsura,Damage,Qaws think about it again, If they agree, I suppose It's fine

The Low 7-B feat, which is performed by a Demon level guy, is only x20 times weaker than Gouketsu's own feat. Conversely, we have another Low 7-B feat performed by a Demon level guy, which is in itself only x10 times weaker than Gouketsu's feat. And, more importantly, at 3.3 Megatons is only about x2 times weaker than what is required for 7-B
Between them we have Bakuzan, who's a Dragon level threat, and thus obviously stronger than either Demon, but he's still nowhere near the level of the Cadres (Gouketsu stopped him with one finger) and stated that there are several monsters in the Monster Association who were way stronger than he was.

This is partially why I say having Gouketsu be an entire order of magnitude above all the other Cadres is ridiculous. The scaling gap where they should all fit is far too narrow for them not to be on the same Tier as Gouketsu, specially when coupled with the fact that Gouketsu is never stated to be the strongest Cadre, nor even being among the strongest Cadre, and at least two (if not three) Cadres get way more story hype than he ever does. Gouketsu is, after all, not one of the Cadres Gyoro Gyoro has trouble controling.

Because of all this and more, I think all of the Cadres should be ranked as "Likely 7-B"

I would still like to see a vote on variations of this feat. My version adopted by Ugarik was Low 7-B, and the current 7-B. I don't mind Gouketsu being a 7-B, because It's stronger than an Octopus. But I do not agree that the cloud feat is regarded as something so high.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I'm with damage here. There's no indication that Goketsu is weak, he's just loyal unlike most monsters. To say every cadre is superior to him is completely baseless without a quote supporting it. If they have the scaling chain to justify 7-B then they should be 7-B. If they don't then "At least Low 7-B+, likely higher" works.