One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

[KingTempest]

So yall just ignored literally like 50% of everything I said

 

[SnookB]

And just to further this point: any movement I make on the rope? Has the jet's momentum already factored into that motion. Same as Luffy. Hopefully you get it now

Holy jesus..
If the bike is moving forward and luffy jumped straight up, there's no other UP momentum except for Luffy's own.

At this point I'll just wait for damage's rebuttal to KT. He's addressing both points from the sound of it anyway.

 

[Xulrev]

So yall just ignored literally like 50% of everything I said

That's sort of what happen when 50% of what you say doesn't address a straightforward point, no?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That's sort of what happen when 50% of what you say doesn't address a straightforward point, no?

You probably thought what he said was too long and skimmed a bit of it lol

 

[KingTempest]

That's sort of what happen when 50% of what you say doesn't address a straightforward point, no?

Here's a TLDR

Most of the OP is useless.
The calc measures Luffy's pure striking force and not all of the other components everyone is talking about.

 

[Xulrev]

You probably thought what he said was too long and skimmed a bit of it lol

Considering I engaged it, have kept discussion to the core of the OP, you're quite off base. What's absurdly evident is blind FRA at wall of text.

The calc measures Luffy's pure striking force and not all of the other components everyone is talking about.

I am aware of your conjecture, thanks for the tl;dr of what I read though. Doesn't engage the Usopp scaling and momentum or literally most of the rest of what Damage posited. Your response went to something entirely else, by and large

 

[KingTempest]

I am aware of your conjecture, thanks for the tl;dr of what I read though. Doesn't engage the Usopp scaling and momentum or literally most of the rest of what Damage posited. Your response went to something entirely else, by and large

I actually tackled each point.

Momentum has nothing to do with the calculation. Momentum would be the added to the end yield of the golden rifle, not the yield of Luffy pulling the ball.
Luffy pulling the ball and getting the 17 MT yield is completely unrelated to the golden rifle's full yield, which includes elasticity, momentum, rotational KE, and everything else.

Usopp scaling I already tackled. Luffy fought an injured Usopp who injured himself even more during the fight and he could take his attacks

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So yall just ignored literally like 50% of everything I said

I haven't even gotten to responding yet chill I spent all day fillin out grad apps cut me some slack

You also didn't refute Deceived

 

[KingTempest]

You also didn't refute Deceived

lol

I guess i'll explain my vote since I've been kinda just goofing around tbh.

Mans said Kinda

I'm basically neutral about this entire topic from the general standpoint given my lack of knowledge of the series and calculation at hand, so arguments about what values which are assumed in the calc or Usopp's scaling are completely out of my range of knowledge. I've read both the OP and KT's post, there's somethings which i believe KT didn't validly respond to such as the Boxing analogy, since he completely misunderstood the analogy's intention, which was to show that slower punches can generate more force comparative to lighter punches because of the increased mass behind said punch. Which would be a comparable analog to Golden Bull and Luffy's basic punches. (For at least what Damage/Arc are claiming)

I also don't agree with KT's response to Damage's/Arc's argument with the Force-Velocity Curve, as it seems like KT believes any increase in mass, which would negatively effect an object's speed will always produce less force compared to the reverse, which isn't true since Kinetic Energy isn't linear in such ways, Which is shown with the Boxing analogy.

The Dumbbell example also isn't a good one since structurally, both aren't comparable to each other and such wouldn't exert force the same way, a much better analogy would be a gauntlet since that's structurally comparable to the Golden Bull. And if someone with said gauntlet was able to lift it up and swing it just like Luffy then yes, they'd produce more force behind their punch compared to without the gauntlet, as the gauntlet grants mass than it losses speed. Which is what the Force-Velocity Curve explains.

The primary reason why I'm not gonna even entertain this argument is not because it's wrong (which it isn't, it's a good argument), but because it's irrelevant

The calculation measures Luffy's force from pulling the ball which is scaleable to its KE

Me tackling this is gonna give a 3 page derailment which won't even end up tackling the primary reason why the calculation is used in the first place.

We can tackle this offsite or something idc, but the point is that this is a flawed approach against Luffy scaling to the value because this issue isn't something that contradicts Luffy being able to scale to the ball

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I apologize for interrupting and being off-topic but may someone please review this thread so it's not just me going back and forth with someone?

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Bump

No need to bump the thread, it's nowhere near dead. I'm just unfortunately busy and this thread necessitates writing a big response post.

 

[TioKill]

I'll give my input because I believe it's important given the current points made.



Assuming the calculation remains correct, debating either or not Luffy is single-handedly responsible for the Kinetic Energy when it comes to science is a waste of time to both parties. That's because we have a much, much stronger argument for the scaling to work for their Water 7 keys, through the Shigan scaling suggested by Damage, and probably by others in the past. Not only does it not leave any room for doubt, but it also completely ends 90% of the debates going on here, it's simply solid.





Given that, the point @Damage3245 makes about Shigan scaling only to Kaku and Lucci due to their pictures being used to represent the technique is bogus. The argument Damage makes is nothing else but a no-sequence fallacy, also known as a non-sequitur. The claim that the image is trying to convey which characters the statement applies is completely absurd - no, the image of Shigan on the guide is doing nothing but showcasing the technique visually. Entire purpose of the image ends there, done. One cannot claim the image is trying to convey anything else, especially when the text claiming the strength of the technique is generalized.
Furthermore, even if you want to make the rather silly affirmation that the "hurt Luffy and Zoro" segment on the guide is indication that it only scales to Kaku and Lucci - the ones responsible for inflicting said damage on them - it still wouldn't work. Because the guide simply states the Shigan is powerful enough to do this, it's not limiting to the instances where it actually happened - if anything, the information of the guide simply states if any of the other known users where to use Shigan on them, it would also work. I'd like to strengthen my claim that the Shigan statement is applied in general by stating that the claim made by the guide also implies Luffy's and Zoro's durability scale above the Golden Rifle as well.
As we all know, Luffy can harm himself, and Kalifa can harm the likes of Luffy and Usopp as well.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

But yeah this thread just ignored the entire premise of the calculation, the original thread that got it accepted, and every discussion on it, ever.
I'm actually convinced to make a discussion rule on downgrading this shit.

And I say this shit all the time.

Don't get involved with One Piece downgrade threads if you weren't involved in the threads that upgraded them. You will miss a fuckton of context, like many people in here.

@SnookB I'm sorry you had to deal with whatever tf this was.

This'll be the longest message I ever say so please heed the warning.

Spoiler: Whatever tf this is

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.



And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

The site rules on Lifting Strength state this in the Calculations Page

And this is a lifting strength feat of ridiculous measure, moving the ball in 0.0515 seconds, being able to be something scaleable to striking strength of the character.
Many characters do this, and I'm not a fan of "well all because they do it doesn't mean it's right" that you're most definitely going to say, because it's right and backed up by the thought out policies of the wiki, including all of the characters who provide these types of force from lifting and it scaling to their own physicals.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?
Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.
We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.


So next

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.


The total of like 10 messages in this thread debunks the entire premise of your OP.

Your OP utilizes shit we weren't worried about.

The calculation calculates Luffy yanking the ball.

All that other shit, momentum, rotational KE, weight and force, are bullshit.

We aren't talking about powerscaling Luffy's regular attacks to his ball's energy.
We are talking about the energy Luffy outputted by yanking that ball.

That's my two sense.
And don't start tackling my anger instead of my points like you and everyone else always do in downgrade threads. Tackle my points only and my points alone.

If this is what happens when me and Char are separated from the verse, a downgrade completely undermining everything Charmander and I fought months for and ignoring a 5 page thread with 70% of it is full of arguments we counteracted, then I'm ashamed of the state of the verse's scalers, especially when you have an army of yes men who can't read past the first page of One Piece to actually analyze the faults in this argument.

The entire OP was useless in the grand scheme of things and in the grand scheme of the calc.

So yeah. That's my argument

Yee this is literally nearly perfect to what I would say if I wasn't lazy...

This shit makes me just want to leave or completely abandon anything related to one piece on vsbw... Like damn, mainly because, yee kingtempest already said why

So currently I'm siding with kingtempest about this

 

[Eseseso]

bump?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not forgotten my final presentation is tomorrow so I should be able to respond with my gripes Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon

 

[Damage3245]

Not forgotten my final presentation is tomorrow so I should be able to respond with my gripes Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon

Same for me. Thursday/Friday is looking most likely for me.

(Man, I wish I had started this CRT a week later in hindsight)

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

After having seen all the arguments, I'm going to vote in favor of KingTempest's reasoning and disagree with the proposed revisions, especially after the keys had just been updated only a few months ago. The entire premise for the 7-B calc is based on the fact that Luffy was capable of moving the Golden Ball at all, not the force of the impact the golden ball had. If he was capable of moving with such a heavy weight, then he should clearly be capable of exerting that same amount of energy in general, so it would still scale. KingTempest also brought up a good point with Naruto and Dragon Ball series. Characters like Rock Lee and Might Guy wear weights on their legs, and Piccolo also wears weighted clothing, but the extra mass doesn't give them any boost to their strength. It slows down their movement and the momentum of their attacks, so the whole point is that when they take off those weights, the extra momentum they gain gives them an edge. Same thing would apply here.

I'm sure that Luffy was holding back against Usopp at least somewhat, since I find it crazy Usopp could be comparable to Luffy's physical stats in any way. He should just massively downscale, which Usopp already does.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I've finished compiling my thoughts about KT's big argument, it's going to be compiled with Damage's thoughts so KT can focus on one post rather than getting shotgunned. So it should be out soon.

 

[Deceived3596]

Shotgunned

Two Post

Shotgunned

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Stop meat riding

 

[Deceived3596]

Stop meat riding

"It's space Jamuary"

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"It's space Jamuary"

Goated one liner

 

[DaMonkeMan]

"It's space Jamuary"

I don't even know what this means but it's funny

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't even know what this means but it's funny

Thank you

 

[Damage3245]

To preface, this is a combined response from @Arc7Kuroi and myself to KT's post specifically. Apologies for the delay in putting this together. Because of how long it is, I've put it behind a spoiler box:

Spoiler

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

No, technically the calculation measures the kinetic energy of the ball. However, you’re failing to understand the issue. When I swing a bat, I produce the energy to swing the bat; I am the one moving the bat, but my punches are definitely weaker than the bat swing. We all see that Luffy moved the ball, that isn’t what is being contested.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

You calculated the mass of the golden ball, the distance it moved, the time it took to move to get speed, and then the kinetic energy of the ball. We can get into the semantics about what is intended, but the KE is of the ball. Also, refer to my prior comment.

Luffy pulled out 17 MT with the Gold Ball by hurting someone, breaking something, or moving something with 17 MT

Not quite sure what you’re saying here. We aren’t making the above claim though, we are claiming that he shouldn’t scale regularly to the ball for the reasons mentioned in the OP.

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

No, we understand part of your argument is that Luffy was able to move that ball on his own merit and that he should scale because of that. Regardless though you are saying that Luffy performed the feat with the golden ball (he did indeed move the golden ball) and that it scales to his normal physicals. That is exactly what is currently accepted.

Luffy did this with the Gold Ball as a weapon, but we can scale it to his physicals with these reasons

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

First, any object of mass will technically weigh you down. The clothes I wear technically weigh me down, if I grab a dumbbell it weighs me down. I’ll assume by “weigh him down” you mean to say the golden ball is some kind of nerf to his physicals. In which case you’re wrong as demonstrated by the F-V curve, which you haven’t refuted.

Second, in every scene Luffy has the ball he is successfully maneuvering while holding the ball up. So by feats, he isn’t exactly getting “weighed down” if he can continue to keep pace in combat.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

The first part we tackle at the start, but I’ll reiterate it. Luffy is moving the ball by himself with his own merit, that is an undeniable fact. However, that does not make his normal punches scale. The prior bat analogy applies again, the batter alone provides the bat with all its motion (just like Luffy does with the ball) but their punches aren’t equal to the swing of the bat. This is scientifically described by the F-V curve, detailing how despite KE having a higher velocity dependence, it is the mass (within a valid regime of being able to lift the mass) which contributes more due to how the body functions.

The next part of your claim is arbitrary and frankly ludicrous. Nothing in the manga indicates the golden ball made him weaker, real life science backs up the claim that it’d make his punch stronger, and we see his punch with it do far more damage than all of his prior attacks. Please provide a scan to say the ball made Luffy weaker.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

This is objectively false. The idea that if I can harm someone with a rock then I can do the same damage with a punch is objectively incorrect. I can take a hefty rock and break your leg with one well placed slam, I am not breaking your leg with a single punch, or any amount of punches for that matter.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.

Using incorrect arguments in the past is not justification for them now.

And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

It is not in dispute that this is a Striking Strength feat. If this revision were accepted, the Golden Rifle would still be listed in Luffy’s Striking Strength section.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?

Yes. Assuming the weight is able to be moved in a manner that isn’t inhibiting you (just like how Luffy was able to move fine with the ball), adding more weight is going to drastically increase the power of the kick. If you read the argument and explanation about the F-V curve you’d understand that.

Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

Again the F-V curve proves that the mass behind something contributes more greatly to it’s force than the velocity behind it. So yes, if I can move that dumbbell like Luffy moved the ball I will hit harder. It is a simple fact. Also, the 100 kg argument is a false equivalence, as we all know that I cannot lift a 100 kg dumbbell like Luffy lifted that golden ball.

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

No… the F-V curve is about increasing mass and decreasing speed. The entire point of the F-V curve is to show with science that the mass behind something (in this regime where it can be reasonably moved, like Luffy’s GR) matters more than the speed.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

Yes, that is exactly what we are telling you, incredulity doesn’t dismiss that. The F-V curve proves our claim. I am repeating myself over and over again it seems. Also, the notion that Luffy “can barely move” is a gross over-exaggeration of the scenario. He was able to move that punch very well and lift the ball up consistently, even react to Enel while he had the ball.

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Total false equivalence. Just because Naruto and DBZ have magical fictional power ups with removing weighted clothing does not mean the same applies to OP. This is nothing more than a whataboutism.

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

It isn’t and we’ve explained why.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Not at all, but Deceived already addressed this.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

A hammer weighs you down too. This point is a non-sequitur. To lift and strike with a hammer you need to counteract the weight of the hammer.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

The calc being the KE of the ball Luffy moved means literally nothing to the arguments at hand.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

This doesn’t matter, and technically speaking, just because momentum and elasticity don’t explicitly appear in the calc doesn’t mean the physics doesn’t apply/isn’t being used in the calc. It’s just omitted because it isn’t required to find the translational KE of the golden ball.

Elasticity is still relevant when it comes to scaling because the more wind-up Luffy’s punch has, the faster the punch will be thrown, which means the more kinetic energy it will have. A punch thrown with no wind-up can’t automatically be assumed to be just as powerful.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

No, the calc is for the translational KE of the golden ball.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This thread is in part a scaling argument as we’re arguing how the Golden Rifle calc scales to Usopp.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

It definitely is in part.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

The rotational KE aspect of the ball isn’t that great compared to the translational KE of the ball, so let’s not pretend this is some massive lowballed calc.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

You don’t need to explicitly use them in a calc for the physics to apply… Just because they’re not a part of the calc doesn’t mean the elasticity from Luffy’s arm isn’t aiding the end result.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

Trust me, we know what the calc is about.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.

No we are not, and if that’s what you took away, this is a blatant admission to misunderstanding the argument.

We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

This point has been addressed to death so I won’t bother with repetition.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

The calculation does not provide you an automatic hand wave over the scaling issues we pointed out.

Pointing out the difference in damage that Enel took is a point regarding the scaling, not the calc itself.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.

It is not dozens of times higher than 17 MT.

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Yes, Usopp was injured. He wasn’t in peak performance.

I don’t see how that invalidates the issues with Luffy’s regular punch scaling to his Golden Rifle attack, and trying to scale Usopp to that.

The Impact Dial’s recoil is an unknown AP value anyway.

This doesn’t change the fact that Usopp could only take two attacks from Luffy before going down. Just because Usopp was already injured doesn’t mean that he would have been fine under different circumstances. We can’t speculate on how well he would have taken Luffy’s hits had he not been injured.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

The Golden Rifle is Luffy’s strongest move; by all visual accounts and by calcs, it is Luffy’s best performance. The fact that Luffy stretches his arm back to do it is just one factor, and it has to be pointed out that the punch Usopp took from Luffy was one that wasn’t stretched back.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

By “regular attacks”, I’m obviously referring to Luffy’s performance without the golden ball attached to his arm. So, you know, his regular attack potency.

This is to draw a comparison between what we see when Luffy is attacking without the golden weight attached to his arm, and the attack he landed on Enel with the golden weight attached to his arm.

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

This is an empty argument; if the revision goes through then that key will simply be edited or removed.

We can’t use Luffy having Accelerated Development on his profile as proof that he got stronger in this fight. Our profiles are not evidence.

There is a much simpler explanation for the Gold Rifle attack would be much stronger than Luffy’s earlier attacks and we don’t need to make the assumption that Luffy became several times more powerful in order for it to make sense.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.

I’ll concede that was a bad point; but at least we’re in agreement now that Luffy’s stretched attacks with wind-up are stronger than non-stretched attacks?

Meaning the punch that Usopp took from Luffy during their fight is objectively weaker than the Golden Rifle no matter how you slice it.

 

[TioKill]

The calculation measures the KE of the Golden Bell, which was generated by Luffy's fist, so that's already objectively incorrect.

 

[Damage3245]

The calculation measures the KE of the Golden Bell, which was generated by Luffy's fist, so that's already objectively incorrect.

The topic is a little more complex than just that.

 

[TioKill]

The topic is a little more complex than just that.

You say the Golden Ball was what was measured. No, it was Luffy pushing the gigantic bell with his bare fist, the ball did not come into contact with the bell, it was just weighing him down.

 

[Damage3245]

You say the Golden Ball was what was measured. No, it was Luffy pushing the gigantic bell with his bare fist, the ball did not come into contact with the bell, it was just weighing him down.

The more weight that is being thrown into the punch, the more mass it will have and therefore the more force it will have, right? If you pick up a dumbell and punch with it, will your punch be more powerful than if you had punched without the dumbbell in your hand?

If you start the wind-up of your punch from much further back, will your punch have more force than if you had started your punch from point-blank range?

Saying that "Luffy's fist generated the energy" just ignores context of the feat for the sake of saying every subsequent punch thrown by Luffy is just as powerful as the Golden Rifle, no matter how he threw the punch.

 

[TioKill]

The more weight that is being thrown into the punch, the more mass it will have and therefore the more force it will have, right? If you pick up a dumbell and punch with it, will your punch be more powerful than if you had punched without the dumbbell in your hand?

If you start the wind-up of your punch from much further back, will your punch have more force than if you had started your punch from point-blank range?

Saying that "Luffy's fist generated the energy" just ignores context of the feat for the sake of saying every subsequent punch thrown by Luffy is just as powerful as the Golden Rifle, no matter how he threw the punch.

If you put it in front of your fist, it will hurt more due to the hardness of the material. If you put weights in your wrists, your own strength has to compensate for the extra weight, your punches would be weaker and slower.

 

[Damage3245]

If you put it in front of your fist, it will hurt more due to the hardness of the material. If you put weights in your wrists, your own strength has to compensate for the extra weight, your punches would be weaker and slower.

That's only if you assume the loss in speed is perfectly proportional.

I haven't seen any scans showing that the speed of Luffy's Golden Rifle strike was affected to the point where his strike would be thousands of times slower with the Golden Ball than he would be without it. In fact, Enel even comments on the speed of Luffy's strike.

And this likely isn't due to Luffy's muscular power alone, but the fact that he stored up a huge amount of potential energy in his stretched elastic arm that became released the moment that he punched.

If the speed of Luffy's attack remained relatively high, then the additional mass would boost the amount of kinetic energy of this particular strike.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Y’all need to stop saying “bro he’s measuring the energy of Luffy” because the calc isn’t. The pro side argues that since Luffy moved it his regular fist punches should be able to produce that energy. The calc takes the mass of the Golden Ball multiplies it by the speed it moved squared and then halves the value. That is the kinetic energy of the ball, and that is not debatable.

 

[SnookB]

Y’all need to stop saying “bro he’s measuring the energy of Luffy” because the calc isn’t. The pro side argues that since Luffy moved it his regular fist punches should be able to produce that energy. The calc takes the mass of the Golden Ball multiplies it by the speed it moved squared and then halves the value. That is the kinetic energy of the ball, and that is not debatable.

revisiting the original thread for the revisions (Page 2,3 and 4):

Kazuma_kuwabara said:
In my opinion, that attack should be his own thing, like Nightmare Luffy, no one should scale to either of those things

GC: What???? Literally why do you think both things are comparable scenarios in any shape, way or form? Nightmare Luffy is literally Luffy using 100 people's strength on top of his own.
Golden Rifle is him, generating X force, and translating that into Kinetic Energy

Damage3245 said:
I'm not saying his own LS wasn't carrying it, or that his striking strength is massively inferior to it.

GC: His Striking Strength cannot be inferior to Golden Rifle's energy because Luffy was the cataclysm for that much energy.
He employed that much energy into the attack himself. No gravity, or angular movement (he actually had to go against gravity, so he employed more than 17 megatons into the punch)

Godlycharmander made it very clear multiple times that his calc is meant for "Luffy's ability to punch a golden ball that heavy at a certain speed". His calc measures how fast Luffy could punch it in a straight line from point A to B.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Damage and I already explain that yes you yourself have to generate the energy to swing a heavy object, and we also explain how despite that being the case, your punches aren’t as strong as swinging a bat, a hammer, a dumbbell, a golden ball, etc.

Y’all are strawmanning us with the “but Luffy moved the ball by himself” as if to imply we don’t think that. That’s not the point.

 

[SnookB]

your punches aren’t as strong as swinging a bat, a hammer, a dumbbell,

a bat, hammer and dumbbell increase your damage if they don't exceed your weight class.
You deadass jumped from "dumbbell" to "golden ball" as if you swinging a 3 pound bat, 1/9kg sledgehammers, or a 10kg dumbell, ALL WHICH WAY LESS THAN YOU, is gonna be equally as easy as swinging a golden ball that weights hundreds of times more than you do.

This implies Luffy can handle the golden ball as easily as he would handle a regular weight, which is nowhere near the case.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

a bat, hammer and dumbbell increase your damage if they don't exceed your weight class.
You deadass jumped from "dumbbell" to "golden ball" as if you swinging a 3 pound bat, 1/9kg sledgehammers, or a 10kg dumbell, ALL WHICH WAY LESS THAN YOU, is gonna be equally as easy as swinging a golden ball that weights hundreds of times more than you do.

This implies Luffy can handle the golden ball as easily as he would handle a regular weight, which is nowhere near the case.

Luffy did handle the weight extremely well. He was able to run around with it, keep it suspended in the air, throw it around, etc. Let’s not pretend this weight turned Luffy into a sitting duck. Cmon now. This is the entire reason we have a lifting strength section, it denotes what a character can reasonably lift, and for Luffy it’s that ball.

 

[SnookB]

Luffy did handle the weight extremely well.

Not at first he didn't. He straight up tumbled with it.
Then needed both arms and barely could walk as his knees bent while holding it over his head.

keep it suspended in the air

At the very end of the fight, yes. We've already established his RPL/Accelerated development can change him from being inferior to not in minutes.

Let’s not pretend this weight turned Luffy into a sitting duck.

Its weight literally dragged him along on the first instance it was attached.

Cmon now. This is the entire reason we have a lifting strength section, it denotes what a character can reasonably lift, and for Luffy it’s that ball.

Yes, and lifting an object vs having the physical prowess to lift and swing it are nowhere near the same.
It's similiar to the amazon Lily calc of Luffy lifting and throwing a giant rock at the mountain and breaking it. Might as well say it's that rock's KE and not Luffy's body hurling it being the result.
He had to put his whole body weight into swinging that Ball in a straight line at the end. What you're saying is Luffy could have regularly fought just fine the whole time with that ball attached but CHOSE to let himself get slowed down?

 

[Damage3245]

Not at first he didn't. He straight up tumbled with it.
Then needed both arms and barely could walk as his knees bent while holding it over his head.

There is a difference between Luffy lifting it up from rest and Luffy striking with it after building up potential energy.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It's similiar to the amazon Lily calc of Luffy lifting and throwing a giant rock at the mountain and breaking it. Might as well say it's that rock's KE and not Luffy's body hurling it being the result.
He had to put his whole body weight into swinging that Ball in a straight line at the end. What you're saying is Luffy could have regularly fought just fine the whole time with that ball attached but CHOSE to let himself get slowed down?

Yes Luffy produced the energy to move the object. I’m tiring of repeating that we know that. That does not debunk our premise at all. You can swing a sledgehammer and break a rock, you cannot then punch that rock and break it. “But Arc I generated the energy with the hammer.” Yes but the F-V curve explains how increasing the mass far trumps the speed at which something is moved for moving weights. No one has refuted that.

We know Luffy moved it by himself. That’s entirely irrelevant.