One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

[SnookB]

building up potential energy.

building it up how?
Again, the calc doesn't consider the rifle's wind-up. It takes Luffy being suspended in the air and punching the ball forward. It specifically doesn't account for the wind-up, just the physical force

You can swing a sledgehammer and break a rock, you cannot then punch that rock and break it.

In real life you can swing a sledgehammer DOWNWARDS and break a rock. That's gravity doing half your job for you. Nobody is breaking a rock with a sideways swing via sledgehammer unless they use the sledgehammer like it's lightweight. Luffy didn't swing it with gravity aiding him, he swung straight forward from behind his back. If I gave you a sledgehammer and say "use one arm to lift it off the ground and hit a rock without raising it over your head" that hammer isn't moving half as fast as your arm would otherwise, let alone hit the rock at all.
Swinging things that weight less than you with your full body weight adds force.
Swinging things heavier than you that require your whole body to even move at ALL shouldn't.

Also KT brought it up way, way earlier. But we might as well start increasing the KE of characters who weight heavy weights because it's the same premise anyway. Goku's stronger with his weighted clothes on. Piccolo is too. Rock Lee as well.

 

[Damage3245]

Again, the calc doesn't consider the rifle's wind-up. It takes Luffy being suspended in the air and punching the ball forward. It specifically doesn't account for the wind-up, just the physical force

You do realize that Luffy punching with wind-up is going to result in more force than Luffy punching without wind-up?

If Luffy's arm wasn't extended at all, and he just threw a punch forwards with the Golden Ball right next to him at the beginning of his punch, do you think it would carry as much force?

Also KT brought it up way, way earlier. But we might as well start increasing the KE of characters who weight heavy weights because it's the same premise anyway. Goku's stronger with his weighted clothes on. Piccolo is too. Rock Lee as well.

There is no need to go into other verses here.

 

[SnookB]

There is no need to go into other verses here.

It's literally IDENTICAL LOGIC. I'm not saying go to them and do it, I'm using them as an example to show how blatantly wrong this logic is.

If Luffy's arm wasn't extended at all, and he just threw a punch forwards with the Golden Ball right next to him at the beginning of his punch, do you think it would carry as much force?

So back to square one Luffy's wind-up attacks scale to golden rifle.
The dude didn't even let the elasticity snap the ball back, he CHOSE when to swing forward. Ff you look at the instance Enel stabbed him, his arm starts going limp and loses the elasticity based wind-up but keeps its size because he's refusing to drop that ball at that point. It was very clear he was going to willingly swing his arm forward regardless, the calced rotation that increased its strength is the only thing the original calc didn't consider.

 

[Damage3245]

The dude didn't even let the elasticity snap the ball back, he CHOSE when to swing forward. Ff you look at the instance Enel stabbed him, his arm starts going limp and loses the elasticity based wind-up but keeps its size because he's refusing to drop that ball at that point. It was very clear he was going to willingly swing his arm forward regardless, the calced rotation that increased its strength is the only thing the original calc didn't consider.

The non-calced rotation is completely irrelevant to this thread, and no, Luffy's arm does not lose the elasticity he's built up when he's falling.

 

[SnookB]

The non-calced rotation is completely irrelevant to this thread, and no, Luffy's arm does not lose the elasticity he's built up when he's falling.

When he's falling is irrelevant.
When he's facing upwards, his arm is straight up, his built up elasticity is still his own result, nothing else's.

And no, when he initially has the exchange where he kicks Enel and gets stabbed in the back, you literally see his arm lose the TENSION.

 

[Damage3245]

When he's facing upwards, his arm is straight up, his built up elasticity is still his own result, nothing else's.

And no, when he initially has the exchange where he kicks Enel and gets stabbed in the back, you literally see his arm lose the TENSION.

Still his own result, yes, but you do understand that has nothing to do with Luffy's actual strength?

And him losing the tension is irrelevant when he stretches his arm after falling and building it up again before he uses the Golden Rifle.

 

[Nierre]

Err.. I'm neutral, leaning towards agreeing with the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

Err.. I'm neutral, leaning towards agreeing with the OP.

Understandable. The debate may go back and forth a few times so there's no reason to commit to a side right away.

 

[Eseseso]

Let's wait for King to rebut.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The discussion is now if the calculations itself has some flaws or rather the instances inside it are not useable for the calculation?

 

[Damage3245]

The discussion is now if the calculations itself has some flaws or rather the instances inside it are not useable for the calculation?

No, this thread is not for altering the original calculation, but examining how it applies to Luffy's stats & Usopp's stats.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, this thread is not for altering the original calculation, but examining how it applies to Luffy's stats & Usopp's stats.

So the calculations are valid? Alright perfect

 

[Deceived3596]

Yeah..... Snook deadass isn't understanding the Force Velocity Curve at all, he constantly keeps making arguments which are innately contradicted by physics without understanding why it contradicts physics.

Even if you swung a Sledgehammer sideways without Gravity helping the force behind your swing you'll be able to generate more force compared than someone's left hook because you gained more mass behind your shot comparative to the amount of speed you lost, the onus would be on you to prove the loss in speed would be greater than the gain of mass which Luffy had from Golden Bull. That's it.

I don't see how you aren't understanding this Snook, i really don't.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Deceived FRA

 

[Damage3245]

Deceived boiling it down to the essentials. We're looking for some proof that Luffy's ordinary attacks would be just as powerful as the Golden Ball calc. Not just an assumption that they would be.

 

[Eseseso]

Switching to neutral until King responds

 

[Darkvie123]

Neutral For now too

 

[TioKill]

I'll give my input because I believe it's important given the current points made.



Assuming the calculation remains correct, debating either or not Luffy is single-handedly responsible for the Kinetic Energy when it comes to science is a waste of time to both parties. That's because we have a much, much stronger argument for the scaling to work for their Water 7 keys, through the Shigan scaling suggested by Damage, and probably by others in the past. Not only does it not leave any room for doubt, but it also completely ends 90% of the debates going on here, it's simply solid.





Given that, the point @Damage3245 makes about Shigan scaling only to Kaku and Lucci due to their pictures being used to represent the technique is bogus. The argument Damage makes is nothing else but a no-sequence fallacy, also known as a non-sequitur. The claim that the image is trying to convey which characters the statement applies is completely absurd - no, the image of Shigan on the guide is doing nothing but showcasing the technique visually. Entire purpose of the image ends there, done. One cannot claim the image is trying to convey anything else, especially when the text claiming the strength of the technique is generalized.
Furthermore, even if you want to make the rather silly affirmation that the "hurt Luffy and Zoro" segment on the guide is indication that it only scales to Kaku and Lucci - the ones responsible for inflicting said damage on them - it still wouldn't work. Because the guide simply states the Shigan is powerful enough to do this, it's not limiting to the instances where it actually happened - if anything, the information of the guide simply states if any of the other known users where to use Shigan on them, it would also work. I'd like to strengthen my claim that the Shigan statement is applied in general by stating that the claim made by the guide also implies Luffy's and Zoro's durability scale above the Golden Rifle as well.
As we all know, Luffy can harm himself, and Kalifa can harm the likes of Luffy and Usopp as well.

How about this?

 

[TioKill]

Like I said, even I fell victim to debating whether or not Luffy was responsible for the KE - as a result, everyone just lost their time re-presenting arguments to the opposition.

Let's just focus on the Shigan scaling, because it's set in stone, and Damage already agrees with it to some extent.

 

[Xulrev]

It is astounding to have to go through this thread and see people reiterate, over two dozen times, that putting a weight into your fist and swinging with it somehow DOES NOT increase the force you're hitting with, and that your natural exertion is equivalent regardless because "well you can pick the weight up".

This is such basic physics that I am appalled this site's members who are knowledged in specific verses are actively struggling with the concept and debating against it blindly.

'A real life human picks up a 25kg weight and swings with it: his strike is several times stronger than what a full out haymaker punch is. This is self-evidently true that that SAME HUMAN BEING CANNOT ORDINARILY HIT WITH THAT FORCE WHEN NOT HOLDING THE WEIGHT.

The response from people disagreeing with damage's OP? "So what, the regular human being moved the weight, therefore his every strike is scaled to the hit with the weight in his hand."'

How can people be so dense as to not understand this is exactly what is being argued if you disagree with the OP. If you disagree with the OP, you are genuinely denying basic fundamental physics and straightforward maths.

It is painful to engage this several times and have people agree just because someone dumped a big wall of text

 

[CloverDragon03]

It is astounding to have to go through this thread and see people reiterate, over two dozen times, that putting a weight into your fist and swinging with it somehow DOES NOT increase the force you're hitting with, and that your natural exertion is equivalent regardless because "well you can pick the weight up".

This is such basic physics that I am appalled this site's members who are knowledged in specific verses are actively struggling with the concept and debating against it blindly.

'A real life human picks up a 25kg weight and swings with it: his strike is several times stronger than what a full out haymaker punch is. This is self-evidently true that that SAME HUMAN BEING CANNOT ORDINARILY HIT WITH THAT FORCE WHEN NOT HOLDING THE WEIGHT.

The response from people disagreeing with damage's OP? "So what, the regular human being moved the weight, therefore his every strike is scaled to the hit with the weight in his hand."'

How can people be so dense as to not understand this is exactly what is being argued if you disagree with the OP. If you disagree with the OP, you are genuinely denying basic fundamental physics and straightforward maths.

It is painful to engage this several times and have people agree just because someone dumped a big wall of text

Well I haven't really kept up with the thread since my most recent comment because I had other priorities to attend to but uh... Mass is not the only component of kinetic energy. This has probably already been addressed by someone and I may be looking ridiculous right now but it's also speed too, and if Luffy's being weighed down by it... yeah speed's going down. Speed is arguably even more important because the equation is (1/2) * mass * velocity^2. Double the mass and KE doubles, but double the speed and KE quadruples. Same goes for the inverse. Half the mass and KE gets halved, but half the speed and KE gets reduced to a quarter.

Also your hostility is completely unwarranted so please just... don't

 

[Deceived3596]

Clover..... we aren't disagreeing with the KE formula, you just aren't understanding our argument.

We understand that the increase in speed increases force, and we know it increases force more so compared to mass relatively, but this can only be applied specifically when both factors are known, we have a known, estimated amount of mass for Golden Bull given we can pixle scale the size of Golden Bull in relation to objects with canonical heights, and we know what it's comprised of. We have no idea how much Luffy's speed was impacted because of Golden Bull since that's never explained or implied to us, unlike Golden Bull's mass.

Meaning we wouldn't assume just because speed increases force more compared to mass, it means any increase in mass at the cost of speed creates inherently less force comparative to the reverse.

This is why we've been constantly asking for the other side of this debate to concretely prove that the decrease in speed is more compared to the increase of mass, because if you can't prove that then you can't assume Luffy's basic punches would scale to his or above Golden Bull just because he's unquantifiably faster without the Golden Bull compared to with the Golden Bull.

Hopefully this explains our position more since it seems like people keep misunderstanding it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes to parrot Deceived, we’ve acknowledged the fact that KE favors velocity. However, the force velocity curve tells us that mass matters more than speed. I know this is counter intuitive, but that’s the science.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes to parrot Deceived, we’ve acknowledged the fact that KE favors velocity. However, the force velocity curve tells us that mass matters more than speed. I know this is counter intuitive, but that’s the science.

I don't think the force-velocity curve favoring mass is the issue at play here, it's more that there needs to be a provable decrease in velocity, to such an extent that the increased mass would be counteracted.

I am unsure of this matter in particular, so count me as neutral until we get a response from KT

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't think the force-velocity curve favoring mass is the issue at play here, it's more that there needs to be a provable decrease in velocity, to such an extent that the increased mass would be counteracted.

I am unsure of this matter in particular, so count me as neutral until we get a response from KT

To comment on the first bit that is not what is needed. The force velocity curve applies in the regime of weights you can lift. So as long as Luffy can feasibly move around the weight, the F-V curve applies.

 

[CloverDragon03]

As you said, that seems very counterintuitive. Science be like that I guess

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As you said, that seems very counterintuitive. Science be like that I guess

Yeah I won’t fault people for scratching their heads here, the notion that mass trumps speed in the context of cqc and moving weights is not the go to thought. But it’s just how it is

 

[KingTempest]

Yall are gonna have to change the site's rules about swinging objects fast before yall remove it if the logic is "if I swing with a dumbell"

 

[Deceived3596]

We don't need to change anything, we just won't scale Luffy's basic punches to his Golden Bull enhanced punches without further context.

Pretty simple tbh.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"if I swing with a dumbell"

A very reductionist summary of the anti-GR arguments that misrepresents the argument in totality

 

[KingTempest]

A very reductionist summary of the anti-GR arguments that misrepresents the argument in totality

We don't need to change anything, we just won't scale Luffy's basic punches to his Golden Bull enhanced punches without further context.

Pretty simple tbh.

I didn't even read em yet

I just know that the standards say we're allowed to do so and it's a basic policy, and you gotta change the standards before this random FV chart ***** on it

 

[Xulrev]

Also your hostility is completely unwarranted so please just... don't

Honestly, it's not hostility, it's my being flabbergasted at the inability to grasp core concepts that keep the site tenable. It's just as Kuroi said, and as you yourself later said with how science do just be like that. And it is frustrating to have people try to disagree with the raw mathematical mechanics of it, and get FRA'd, when being completely wrong on the subject matter at hand even though it's been explained several times. Hell, I had to explain to someone in this thread how Luffy having several hundreds of tons of mass attached to his hand means that a vehicle flying with him on it meant the vehicle was lifting that mass: I had to unironically explain to someone that you can't magically have that whole mass outside the system's interactions, and they were one of the main disagreements of the thread people were agreeing with!

When a thread has reached that state, it's just disheartening

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Honestly, it's not hostility, it's my being flabbergasted at the inability to grasp core concepts that keep the site tenable. It's just as Kuroi said, and as you yourself later said with how science do just be like that. And it is frustrating to have people try to disagree with the raw mathematical mechanics of it, and get FRA'd, when being completely wrong on the subject matter at hand even though it's been explained several times. Hell, I had to explain to someone in this thread how Luffy having several hundreds of tons of mass attached to his hand means that a vehicle flying with him on it meant the vehicle was lifting that mass: I had to unironically explain to someone that you can't magically have that whole mass outside the system's interactions, and they were one of the main disagreements of the thread people were agreeing with!

When a thread has reached that state, it's just disheartening

I think it is a minor form of hostility. Slightly putting people down for simply not agreeing with something that you believe isn't right. Or, at least it isn't right in this case.
And I don't know if you know this but some people genuinely have trouble conceiving and understanding certain things, or need something explained multiple times or in a different way than usual. You don't know what these people could have.
Though, I'm not outright saying they do have any mental problems/disabilities, but it's likely.
Also, the vehicle was not carrying the mass of it. He held the ball behind him iirc, and that means that he lifted the ball, and the vehicle was just holding him while he did it.

Don't take any of this as me being mad at you or trying to mini-mod, I just want to inform you, although you might disagree, which is completely fine.

 

[Damage3245]

@Xulrev I appreciate the support, but to ensure that the thread goes smoothly it would be better if you didn't imply that other users are dense on here for not understanding or agreeing.

Not everything is immediately understood by everyone.

We don't need to change anything, we just won't scale Luffy's basic punches to his Golden Bull enhanced punches without further context.

Pretty simple tbh.

Agreed. We don't need to change any standards for this.

 

[Xulrev]

Also, the vehicle was not carrying the mass of it. He held the ball behind him iirc, and that means that he lifted the ball, and the vehicle was just holding him while he did it.

So if I'm in an airplane holding ten tons of lead by a rope, do you believe the airplane is not responsible for keeping that weight mid-air? I'm carrying the weight, yes, but how is it staying mid-air? The answer: the plane is holding it. Same thing here

Regardless yeah not being hostile but I get some people don't grasp things immediately, apologies

 

[TioKill]

How about we move on to the Shigan scaling, which would circle back to Luffy regardless?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

So if I'm in an airplane holding ten tons of lead by a rope, do you believe the airplane is not responsible for keeping that weight mid-air? I'm carrying the weight, yes, but how is it staying mid-air? The answer: the plane is holding it. Same thing here

Regardless yeah not being hostile but I get some people don't grasp things immediately, apologies

The plane is not holding it bro. It's holding you, and YOU'RE holding the lead and rope.

 

[Damage3245]

How about we move on to the Shigan scaling, which would circle back to Luffy regardless?

We can't move onto that until we can get the main topic settled.

 

[TioKill]

We can't move onto that until we can get the main topic settled.

If the opposition is wrong on a factual/scientific level, debating it further comes off as basic stonewalling from said opposition (although likely not intentional). SnookB has repeated his points at least thrice.

 

[KingTempest]

Agreed. We don't need to change any standards for this.

I see no reason why not

Our standards say it's allowed. All because you guys want to make an exception doesn't mean we just completely ignore it.

Luffy yanking the ball with his own force means that he directly scales to it from what we allow. Yall implementing this means you need a site wide revision to flat out remove that standard