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One Piece Speed Upgrade Discussion

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The_Calaca

The_Calaca

VS Battles
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The so long waited speed thread has finally come. Hopefully we won't need more than two of these to reach a consensus.

Thankfully most of the things I had in my original post have been accepted and applied (Hypersonic+ BoS characters) so this will take much less time.

The feats
Kalifa Mach 1192

Hawkins Mach 5449

Drake Mach 5691

Luffy Mach 6670

Marco 0.57c

The scaling

Kalifa
Kalifa's the weakest CP9 member and this should only apply to reaction speed, with she scaling to Nami's Mach 909 feat.

Blueno scales to Kalifa, and Luffy outright blitzed him so he scales to this. So the rest of the strongest Strawhats scales to MHS+ in Enies Lobby, excluding the Weak Trio but they likely scales after Thriller Bark anyway.

The rest of the Strawhats competed with stronger CP9 members with some problems, but they were keeping up with them. Even Chopper should scale with his Rumble transformations, for keeping up with Kumadori.

Supernovas
These three cases show clear reactions and as such should count as reaction speed only. Characters who are able to move faster than that should scale to this only if they move faster than they can perceive.

I'm pretty sure someone (Cough Cin cough) has a scan of Doffy blitzing Luffy to justify him scaling. Katakuri is pretty much faster than G2 but he should scale above this anyway.

Marco
Marco's feat is the highest seen in the verse to date. Rayleigh's 0.2c is now supportive evidence.

This scales to every High Tier with adept Observation Haki, such as Katakuri, who's outright stated to have the ability that only the most advanced users have.

Characters who scales to Marco:

  • Sakazuki: Reshaped his body before Marco could tag him just like Katakuri does.
  • Kuzan: Kept up with Sakazuki for ten days.
  • Katakuri: His advanced Observation Haki is stated to be the highest use to date.
  • Boundman and Snakeman: Slower albeit comparable and comparable to Katakuri, respectively.
  • Shirohige kept up with Sakazuki and Kuzan.
  • Shanks: Master of the three types of Haki.
  • Rayleigh: Kept up with Borsalino and he's who taught Luffy about the ability.
  • Mihawk: Clashed with Shanks lots of times.
The rest of the cast would scale to either at least MHS+ or Likely Relativistic+. Case of the former would be Zoro for slashing Hawkins before he could react (One could say that Hawkins had no reason to even move because of his ability, but this is always the case and even Luffy was surprised by Zoro's speed). Case of the latter would be Sanji, who's known as a good Observation user and dodged Katakuri's bean that was intended to kill him.

I don't know if other character should get just Relativistic+. To me, the rest of them would be Likely.

Kizaru also should be plain Speed of Light now thanks to his VCDB entry.

Conclusion

  • Upgrade Enies Lobby characters and onwards to Massively Hypersonic+
  • Upgrade High, Top and God Tiers to Relativistic+.
  • Some characters would get At least Massively Hypersonic+ speeds, since they don't meet the requirements to scale to the Relativistic+ end.
  • Upgrade Borsalino to SoL.
So this is pretty much it. Feel free to ask.
 
Darn I want be able to keep tabs on this atm.

Off the top of my head shouldn't Jinbei scale. He reacted to Akainu as well as Marco+Vista.

Also Big Mom and Kaido as they reacted to Luffy. Probably cracker and smoothie as well.

I'm also not sure what about Akainu's OH. As I understand it, there is still disagreement as to whether he morphed his form or simply tanked their attacks. Some are in one camp, others in the other across forums.
 
Most likely. He's for sure an advanced Haki user, but not able to watch the future so he should get a Likely just as Sanji does.

Edit: The most likely option is that Sakazuki did what Katakuri does with his body. If he tanked the attacks he should have been bleeding, but he wasn't.
 
The Kalifa feat is the one I have the biggest problem with (apologies if I appear to be nitpicking with this one).

  • Before the lightning bolt starts moving, Kalifa notices the clouds and can see Nami in front of her throwing the Thunderball to trigger the lightning bolt. This means that Kalifa didn't necessarily have 0.0000024659090909 seconds to react within, but as much time between her noticing the clouds and the lightning bolt landing.
  • On top of that later in the fight Kalifa is directly hit with a lightning bolt from a dark cloud that she sees across the room. If her reaction speeds were consistently good enough for her to keep up with surprise lightning, then being hit so easily here by one that she can see is charging and about to fire is weird.
 
She didn't knew a lightning would come out of the cloud. On top of that, we don't have a single hint that she started the soup shield before.

On the other side, you're forgetting that the lightning speed we use for calcs is just an average. Mach 1292 (our standard) isn't the only speed lightning can travel at, nor the maximum speed so Kalifa not dodging the finishing lightning isn't strange since it could have been travelled faster than that.

Not to mention she's now slower than the lightning speed standard, was weakened and completely out of mind when Nami defeated her after being outsmarted.
 
These seems fine, to me:

  • Upgrade High, Top and God Tiers to Relativistic+.
  • Some characters would get At least Massively Hypersonic+ speeds, since they don't meet the requirements to scale to the Relativistic+ end.
  • Upgrade Borsalino to SoL.
I will give my evalaution on this point later:

  • Upgrade Enies Lobby characters and onwards to Massively Hypersonic+
 
Where was the Marco speed feat accepted, btw? The linked blog has almost no Calc Group Members commenting on it and confirming the validity of any of the calcs therein, so I'm simply curious.
 
Idk why there was a general consensus that Kizaru isn't SOL despite the fact that he is literally someone who turns into light, manipulates light, and creates light. He's the exact same as Enel, who's accepted as lightning speed, except Kizaru has the light light DF.

I agree with this.

Also, shouldn't the Dressrosa arc characters (Doffy, Fujitora, Sabo, etc.) scale to this?
 
@Xulrev Darkanine was a calc group member at that time.

@FullMetalLamps Let's not get into old discussions. Kizaru is now going to be considered SoL and that's all we need.

Dunno if Doffy would. He's an Observation user but he's not as adept as other characters so I'm not sure. That's why I asked Cin in the OP to come and shut my mouth.

Fujitora should, and if he does, Sabo as well.
 
Ah okay.

Wait, so one person saying the math is fine but no clue on context is enough to get accepted? Huh, nifty. If so then yeah everything appears kosher! Grats on the upgrades!!
 
Regarding the Marco calc, can I check how we know that he started moving after the lasers were only 84.56 m away from Whitebeard?

From the looks of it that distance is just the distance between Marco and the edge of the panel.
 
Going on to who else scales, Cat Viper and Dog Storm (Nekomamushi and Inuarushi), Jack probably, Law, potentially the Vinsmokes, some of Shichibukai for being Shichibukai (Kuma, Moria, Boa), perhaps Kinemon and the rest of the 9 Scabbards?
 
Calaca Vs said:
She didn't knew a lightning would come out of the cloud. On top of that, we don't have a single hint that she started the soup shield before.
On the other side, you're forgetting that the lightning speed we use for calcs is just an average. Mach 1292 (our standard) isn't the only speed lightning can travel at, nor the maximum speed so Kalifa not dodging the finishing lightning isn't strange since it could have been travelled faster than that.

Not to mention she's now slower than the lightning speed standard, was weakened and completely out of mind when Nami defeated her after being outsmarted.
Click to expand...
This point makes sense to me so I am fine with:

  • Upgrade Enies Lobby characters and onwards to Massively Hypersonic+
 
I'd argue Boa should scale to MHS+ Smoker was able to catch Gear Second Luffy off guard and move fast enough to pin him down and she causally kicked him and intercepted him when he chased after Luffy.
 
That context is really odd. There's a panel where Marco is right behind Newgate and by angsizing the distance is like 30cm but he's nowhere close him in the other scans.

On the other side, when the beams are close to Newgate, the difference is barely a meter, so I just used that as a distance between Shirohige and the beams because otherwise the feat doesn't fit in the overall context.

Even if we dismiss Marco's feat, the lowest end we can choose to say they are keeping up with Kizaru is Rel+, not too far below Marco's speed so things shouldn't drastically change. NarutoForums are giving Rel+ to SoL reactions, but Rel+ as a low end is a safer compromise.
 
Are we also taking into account the Doriki (which measures the base physical stats of CP9), which should be a baseline for scaling Enies Lobby characters, not to mention the fact that Zoans get a boost in physicals when transformed?

Lucci being 4000 and Kalifa being 630 is a huge jump, which would make the Monster Trio far superior to Kalifa and any Zoan DF user would be boosted, although we don't know their Doriki after the DF boost.
 
I'm neutral on using the Doriki as a linear scaling, tbh. It'd support the difference between Enies Lobby and Marineford Luffy's speed tho.

Edit: Nevermind, Kobster's right.
 
I did some quick math assuming Lucci was 6 times faster then Kalifa he'd be Mach 7152 (neutral on this)
 
I'm opposed to Doriki scaling. It's purely physical strength that is measured, as pretty outright stated by characters knowledgable in the system.
 
Nothing much to say here, just make sure it's not an outlier, cause it's a headache to upgrade then downgrade the verse.

Peace out ԣÅ
 
Characters with questionable statistics (Such as Hancock, who is potentially far higher than her scaling with Smoker and Sentomaru), should probably have an "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely far higher.

Luffy and Doflamingo are tricky cases (kind of involves Katakuri as well). We have characters such as Jozu (who should scale comparable to Mihawk [for catching his attack] and Marco/Vista [due to being their peers]) that Doflamingo has caught mid-action, and other cases like Aokiji catching Doflamingo's attack just barely before it connected to Smoker.

Assuming Gear 2nd Luffy (by the time of Dressrosa) is "At least MHS+", Doflamingo should probably be: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Blitzed Smoker, faster than Sanji, fast enough to outpace Gear 2nd Luffy in combat and see his attacks), Possibly Relativistic+ (Has caught characters such as Jozu, and was confident he could kill Smoker before Aokiji could stop him [though this latter case was proven wrong--albeit Doflamingo came within a hair of touching Smoker]. He could react to and tag Bound Man Luffy with his attacks)

Also, Doriki is physical power. It was not once stated to affect speed.

If anything, G2 Luffy's key for Enies Lobby would be ">>Mach 1192" while his Marineford key would be "Mach 6670". Strawhats would only scale to Mach 1192, and this would roll over to their post time-skip scaling since we don't see any of them reacting to characters who have matched Gear 2nd Luffy.

However, there does seem to be some dispute w/ Marco's feat. Still, we do still have a previously accepted Relativistic calc (Rayleigh feats from my blog from way back before it was considered an outlier) that would act to back this up (not to mention the databook confirming Kizaru indeed moves SoL and only those with highly trained Kenbunshoku can even keep up with him).

I agree that Kizaru should be "SoL", however only in Attack Speed and Movement Speed. His Combat Speed should likely stay in the "Relativistic+" region since he hasn't been shown exactly outmatching characters who have the capacity to react to his attacks and move at these speeds (and he wouldn't need a higher reaction speed to simply attack/move 2x faster than his own reaction speed), so: Relativistic+ Combat speed (Can match Marco and Rayleigh in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light Attack and Movement Speed (Stated by himself and from the Vivre Card Data-book to be capable of attacking and moving at the speed of light. His beams and physical strikes are all capable of moving this fast due to the nature of his Devil Fruit).

So personally, I think some characters may remain with an "At least MHS+" rating while others are "likely far higher" or "Possibly Rel+" including Doflamingo and Luffy post time-skip (Base Luffy would still only be >1192Mach while Gear 2nd is >6670Mach, and Gear 4th scales from being far faster and scaling above commanders such as Cracker [and this is before he even powers up, so this should be noted on his profile. He only receives a noticeable power-up in speed when he activated Snake-Man and developed his Haki vs Katakuri]).

This is only assuming we scale all the commanders relative to eachother.
 
Nice calcs their, I agree at every point of them.

One question, what is about the Rayleigh feat from Narutoforums-Outskirtbattle? Did we look over their later after these calcs get accept? In OBD the high tiers and top tiers get Relativistic+ and Reaction light speed for the Rayleigh feat. Having light speed reaction would give a huge upgrade for at least the high and top tiers.
 
The thing is, Rayleigh's feat isn't necessarily based on having lightspeed reactions but could be down to him having precognition.

(And the fact that Kizaru's movement was heavily telegraphed)
 
The point was that Rayleigh move his hand fast enough to catch Kizaru when he use the light speed.

So he must have a light speed reaction to keep up with Kizaru speed, yes it comes most like because of his precognition but it doesn´t change the fact that Rayleigh was able to react to the light speed of Kizaru. I find the feat from Narutoforums very good and accurate, but it come up how you guys feeling about the feat.
 
Isn't there a note on the precog which states that it doesn't matter if u can still see an event that is about to happen if your body isn't quick enough to react??

Main example is spider man
 
Quick note here guys, Ray does not have confirmed precog so it would just be his reaction time until proven it could be otherwise.
 
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