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One Piece Speed Upgrade Discussion
- Thread starter The_Calaca
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How can he teach Luffy precog when Luffy didn't start using it until way way way later going by arcs.
I agree he most likely has precog but it's not shown or stated so I say to wai
But as is he only taught Luffy the basics of observation haki
I agree he most likely has precog but it's not shown or stated so I say to wai
But as is he only taught Luffy the basics of observation haki
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@Dr. Fix - You ask if Rayleigh does not have confirmed Precognition, and that link does show pre-cognition. Adept users of OH can see slight premonitions. He perceived the elephant's movements long before it attacked, allowing him to dodge it effortlessly without even looking or acknowledging the creature. That is pre-cognition.
At the current highest peak of OH, one can move from slight premonitions to actually seeing the future up to a few seconds.
Whether Rayleigh has Future Sight or not is unknown but we know for sure he has the knowledge of it and confirmed others to have it
At the current highest peak of OH, one can move from slight premonitions to actually seeing the future up to a few seconds.
Whether Rayleigh has Future Sight or not is unknown but we know for sure he has the knowledge of it and confirmed others to have it
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Basic observation haki is precog along with presence sensing. It's different for everyone. Precognition doesn't have to be Katakuri levels of future sight.
Rayleigh has precog, and that is a fact.
Rayleigh has precog, and that is a fact.
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@Astral - Luffy literally used precog in Return to Sabaody arc where he dodged the laser from PX-5 (though every single scene that does have obs. haki has been confirmed via visual or verbal indication), in Fishman Island where he dodged the water bullets from Hody, and then certain fights in Dressrosa iirc. Luffy only started to use future sight in WCI arc, which is different from basic precog.
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U do realize precognition and future sight are the same things right?
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Different levels of it.
You can't say that a pistol and a sniper rifle is the same thing when both are different despite having the same concept.
You can't say that a pistol and a sniper rifle is the same thing when both are different despite having the same concept.
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Da heck dude Luffy wasn't seeing the future tho in the first arc of the post TS. He was sensing things. In other words it's not pre cog yet
It doesn't matter if it's different levels we still classify seeing the future as precognition; nothing else
It doesn't matter if it's different levels we still classify seeing the future as precognition; nothing else
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The first form of Observation Haki is simply an intuitive precognition; they have an inkling of what will occur and can begin to move before the attack begins.
The second form is legitimate Future Sight, and enables them to distinctly see into the future and react to specific things far beyond their intuition.
Both are precog, but they're separate tiers of precog.
That's my interpretation at least.
The second form is legitimate Future Sight, and enables them to distinctly see into the future and react to specific things far beyond their intuition.
Both are precog, but they're separate tiers of precog.
That's my interpretation at least.
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@Xulrev - Basically what I said. Rayleigh himself said that some keen users can "even see the future."
Doesn't mean having basic precog is the same thing as that level of "future sight."
Doesn't mean having basic precog is the same thing as that level of "future sight."
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Great work here Calaca! I agree with the OP.
As for this Basic OH is precognition or not mini debate, just read the Precognition page. It has the answer.
As for this Basic OH is precognition or not mini debate, just read the Precognition page. It has the answer.
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Why would rayleigh not have precog? He has observation haki
That's not how burden of proof works.
Okay let me clarify. Are you saying "Rayleigh doesnt have future sight" or are you saying "Rayleigh doesnt have the basic observation haki that allows you to sense someones intentions" because to MY understanding we refer to both of those things as precognition. Of you are indeed stating the second then i am confused as to how you got to that conclusion and i will not be providing proof for something that is already accepted om the wiki and a well known fact seeing as he taught luffy. If your stating the first then I agree with your point wholeheartedly and I misunderstood you.
That's not how burden of proof works.
Okay let me clarify. Are you saying "Rayleigh doesnt have future sight" or are you saying "Rayleigh doesnt have the basic observation haki that allows you to sense someones intentions" because to MY understanding we refer to both of those things as precognition. Of you are indeed stating the second then i am confused as to how you got to that conclusion and i will not be providing proof for something that is already accepted om the wiki and a well known fact seeing as he taught luffy. If your stating the first then I agree with your point wholeheartedly and I misunderstood you.
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How could Rayleigh not have FS when he was keeping up with Borsalino?
Asking for directly stated evidence of every single bit in the manga must stop, Fix. Saying that Rayleigh doesn't have Future Sight because there's no statement saying so is nothing against the evidence that proves he does have.
Asking for directly stated evidence of every single bit in the manga must stop, Fix. Saying that Rayleigh doesn't have Future Sight because there's no statement saying so is nothing against the evidence that proves he does have.
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@Rex The former. For a review check out the pages enhanced senses and Precognition ..
Anyway this attempt to change Ray's current profile (Yes, precog is not one of his listed abilities) has derailed the discussion. @Calaca and whoever should make a seperate thread or post in the abilities section if they want to give ray a new ability. That way we can please get back to who scales to relativistic+
That is provided we have agreed these feats are legit which looking at the posts I think we have?
Anyway this attempt to change Ray's current profile (Yes, precog is not one of his listed abilities) has derailed the discussion. @Calaca and whoever should make a seperate thread or post in the abilities section if they want to give ray a new ability. That way we can please get back to who scales to relativistic+
That is provided we have agreed these feats are legit which looking at the posts I think we have?
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- Thread starter
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Nobody has precognition listed on his profile. Listing [Insert level of mastery] Haki covers that part. Otherwise, we would have to add lots of information on dozens of profiles. We don't and we won't list the Haki abilities to every page. There's no need to add this part to the currently ongoing abilities revision.
I think Damage might have something to say, but I think the evidence is enough to provide the upgrades. I'm going to contact DDM to check this thread so we don't bother Ant with this.
I think Damage might have something to say, but I think the evidence is enough to provide the upgrades. I'm going to contact DDM to check this thread so we don't bother Ant with this.
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I think CinCameron's suggestion seems good to me.
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- Thread starter
- #62
So if everything is okay I think we could start updating the profiles.
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Considering One Piece is a fairly mainstream verse, and I do recall threads in the past being controversial, more staff input might be appreciated. Probably recommended to ask more Calc group members and Discussion Mods.
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- #64
Kay. I'm going to ask a few of them.
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Seems good to me
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If I can make a few suggestions for who scales to Relativistic+
Monkey D. Garp he reacted and tagged Marco mid flight and is confirmed to know Observation haki (his exact proficiency is unknown but I think it's good supporting evidence)
By proxy Sengoku and possibly Shiki should scale as well
Zephyr (One Piece) should also definitely scale for reacting and deflecting several of Kizaru's lasers and fighting on par with Borsalino himself
Monkey D. Garp he reacted and tagged Marco mid flight and is confirmed to know Observation haki (his exact proficiency is unknown but I think it's good supporting evidence)
By proxy Sengoku and possibly Shiki should scale as well
Zephyr (One Piece) should also definitely scale for reacting and deflecting several of Kizaru's lasers and fighting on par with Borsalino himself
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- Thread starter
- #68
Probably. IIRC he parried Shirohige's strikes as well.
Edit: Let's wait for staff input before discussing the scaling for every single character. It'd be bad if we talk for weeks before getting more approval.
Edit: Let's wait for staff input before discussing the scaling for every single character. It'd be bad if we talk for weeks before getting more approval.
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In general I think the calcs and scaling look fine. As for the precog stuff, while it does help a lot they would still need to be within the same ballpark speed wise or they wouldn't have time to intercept lightspeed attacks.
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- Thread starter
- #70
Thank you.
4 of the 7 staff members I've contacted have replied. One of them told me that he knows nothing and it's busy atm, but I'm okay with waiting for the other two.
4 of the 7 staff members I've contacted have replied. One of them told me that he knows nothing and it's busy atm, but I'm okay with waiting for the other two.
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Regarding pre-cog:
Rayleigh is never outright stated to use precog, but he does display at least enough to prove his ability to use it. He announced the Elephant's attacks, has vast knowledge of the ability (on top of decades training the power and knowing how to develop and teach it), Luffy was capable of using pre-cog by the time he returned to Sabaody--predicting the Pacifista's attack (noted by Sentomaru), accurately seeing through Hody's attacks, and way later when he initially fights Katakuri in the Mirror World (BEFORE he evolves), Katakuri notes how this is the first time (ever or in a long time) anyone has been able to dodge his attacks for such a period of time--despite Katakuri being the one with the advanced pre-cog. Also, the databook implies only those with high proficiency of Kenbunshoku can keep up with Kizaru... Only 2--arguably 3 canon characters including Rayleigh have done so consistently.
It is impossible for Luffy to simply master such adept level of abilities on his own without guidance, and before Hyo (who is currently teaching him Goken), he had no help from anyone other than Rayleigh. The only development he made on his own was enhancing his already known abilities.
I say Rayleigh has pre-cog. There's far more than enough sufficient evidence without the databook outright stating it (as if it needs to) to prove it.
Rayleigh is never outright stated to use precog, but he does display at least enough to prove his ability to use it. He announced the Elephant's attacks, has vast knowledge of the ability (on top of decades training the power and knowing how to develop and teach it), Luffy was capable of using pre-cog by the time he returned to Sabaody--predicting the Pacifista's attack (noted by Sentomaru), accurately seeing through Hody's attacks, and way later when he initially fights Katakuri in the Mirror World (BEFORE he evolves), Katakuri notes how this is the first time (ever or in a long time) anyone has been able to dodge his attacks for such a period of time--despite Katakuri being the one with the advanced pre-cog. Also, the databook implies only those with high proficiency of Kenbunshoku can keep up with Kizaru... Only 2--arguably 3 canon characters including Rayleigh have done so consistently.
It is impossible for Luffy to simply master such adept level of abilities on his own without guidance, and before Hyo (who is currently teaching him Goken), he had no help from anyone other than Rayleigh. The only development he made on his own was enhancing his already known abilities.
I say Rayleigh has pre-cog. There's far more than enough sufficient evidence without the databook outright stating it (as if it needs to) to prove it.
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- Thread starter
- #74
I'll ask him.
And no, we won't add precognition to the profiles. It's in the Haki page already.
And no, we won't add precognition to the profiles. It's in the Haki page already.
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(TFW Croc's AP/Dura tier isn't the only issue, and now he also has a speed issue since he was outsped by G2 Luffy, but has deflected an attack from Mihawk [rel+ likely], fought Doffy [MHS+, poss Rel+] and caught Akainu off guard and fought him alongside the commanders [Rel+])
Inconsistencies in the war, i swear!
Inconsistencies in the war, i swear!
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- #76
IDK why do you care right now about it. Save that discussion for the moment.
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You should add Rayleigh's calc to the OP so we can see what is being used for it.
> Case of the former would be Zoro for slashing Hawkins before he could react (One could say that Hawkins had no reason to even move because of his ability, but this is always the case and even Luffy was surprised by Zoro's speed).
I think we do actually see Hawkins react to it on that page. There are exclamation marks and a spark of reaction. But he just couldn't do anything about it.
> Case of the former would be Zoro for slashing Hawkins before he could react (One could say that Hawkins had no reason to even move because of his ability, but this is always the case and even Luffy was surprised by Zoro's speed).
I think we do actually see Hawkins react to it on that page. There are exclamation marks and a spark of reaction. But he just couldn't do anything about it.
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You can find Narutoforums version here https://www.narutoforums.org/thread...le-and-stuff-2-electron-boogalopolis.1164475/
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It's the similar case. Hawkins reacted to Kizaru's kick but couldn't do nothing about it.
I'll update the OP.
I'll update the OP.
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Regarding Hawkins, I don't think he had any intention to move in either case regarding Zoro or Kizaru. He wasn't really shocked when he noticed Kizaru's leg approaching him, nor was he shocked when taking a blow from Zoro. He relies on his ability to the point where he is arrogant. Look how he is currently engaging Law.
However, Zoro did block several of Hawkins' attacks anyways, so he can scale to Hawkins in speed as of Wano.
However, Zoro did block several of Hawkins' attacks anyways, so he can scale to Hawkins in speed as of Wano.
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