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One Piece Speed Upgrade Discussion

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Also, i disagree with the OP regarding G4 Luffy being "comparable" to Katakuri.

Boundman was near-blitzing Katakuri without any use of Haki, and Kata relied future sight to dodge attacks, Snakeman was simply too much regardless, so Haki was hardly relevant seeing as how Katakuri was still taking many blows.

If anything, as of WCI, all of Luffy's forms are possibly Relativistic+ anyways since he basically kept up with Katakuri in base by the end of the fight.

We should treat Luffy's 2 keys in Post time-skip as the following (and specify it):

Dressrosa Key should be change to "Up to Whole Cake" or simply "Whole Cake Arc" while the WCI Key should be treated as "Post-Whole Cake/Pre-Wano", treating the first Key as of Luffy's abilities up until the point where he first engages Katakuri, as there is absolutely no indication or reason to believe he has made any development on his part by the time he returned to Sabaody until he fights Katakuri and enhances his Haki.

So regarding Luffy's speed, he should be "At least MHS+, Possibly Rel+" in Base, 2nd, and 3rd Gears--seeing as how he could still (barely) keep pace with Doflamingo and matched Jinbe, while his Gear 4th speed is "Rel+" for outspeeding Doflamingo and fighting Cracker and his countless biscuit soldiers off-panel.

  • Jinbe's scaling comes from leaping in to block Akainu's attack, intercepting an attack from Big Mom, and stopping Katakuri's attack on Luffy before it connected to the ground from a distance, so he'd probably be "At least MHS+, Possibly Rel+"
Post Whole-Cake would have Luffy's speed "Possibly Rel+" in base and other forms, at least in reaction speed for matching Katakuri blow for blow for hours, and Rel+ in Bound Man and Snake Man. I would discuss AP/Dura, but that's a topic for the other thread.
 
Yeah this is fine.

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I agree with Cin's suggestion above btw.
 
Yea I don't agree with what Cin just said, but I do agree that pretty much all high tiers and up should probably be rel+
 
He can also move as light. Hes a bit odd truthfully. He blatantly doesnt have SOL combat speed unless utilizing his Fruit to turn into light and then kick people. Hes all over the place
 
You mean using Yata no kagami?

Or do you mean just simply walking/running around

Cause if its the latter i completely disagree
 
A suggestion for Kizaru's speed by Cin was:

Relativistic+ Combat speed (Can match Marco and Rayleigh in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light Attack and Movement Speed (Stated by himself and from the Vivre Card Data-book to be capable of attacking and moving at the speed of light. His beams and physical strikes are all capable of moving this fast due to the nature of his Devil Fruit)
 
Only via the light mirror yes absolutely Tata. Kizaru also has shown himself to dissipate into light particles and reassemble at unknown speed, that's about it
 
As long as Kizaru is in his light form anything he does should be SOL. this is pretty straight forward he'd get SOL combat, movement and reactions while in his Logia form. But if he's simply in his human form while using his fruit he should scale to Rel+. Just my take.
 
Technically speaking Marco's calc is for his Flight Speed, right?
 
Since Borsalino can physically trade blows with and react to Rayleigh and Marco without using his DF I think physical speed should be Relativistic+
 
I don't see why Kizaru would be SOL in his logia form though, the databook didn't say anything about that

It should be more like

Relativistic+ (Can match Marco and Rayleigh in combat blow for blow), Speed of Light combat and Movement speed with Yata No kagami (Stated by himself and from the Vivre Card Data-book to be capable of attacking at the speed of light)
 
Occams Razor would imply that Kizaru is SOL in his Logia form in general. There's nothing to suggest that he's slower than light while being light itself. That doesn't make much sense for me and as someone from the OBD who argued for the current speed rating I can tell you that Yata No Kagami doesn't make sense. That's a complete and total headcanon that we came up with as thats never stated to be the case in the manga or databooks. Yata No Kagami isn't Kizarus only method of SOL movement speeds it's just his easiest method of traveling SOL since he's a Light Logia he isn't able to change his direction in mid flight so Yata No Kagami counters this weakness via reflections allowing him to change his direction as Light does in real life. The worst I'd settle for would he "Rel+, speed of light via Logia form ( Being a being composed of natural light Kizaru can move and attack at the speed of light. )
 
If Kizaru could just run around as SOL then what is even the point of Yata no kagami

He literally wouldn't need to use it, the whole purpose of the move is so he can travel at a higher speed

Unless YTK is now FTL
 
.... the point of Yata no Kagami is to get around easier. The whole point is for Kizaru to be able to change his direction, he's a light logia so naturally he cant change direction mid flight. Think about it this way Kizaru can travel at SOL but only in straight lines without the use of Yata No Kagami. It's pretty straight forward after all you cant expect someone who's made of light to be able to bend themselves in order to change their direction hence why Yata No Kagami is a thing. This doesn't imply Yata No Kagami is FTL its the same speed as his normal stuff it just allows him to travel from mirror to mirror allowing for easier maneuvers. Yata No Kagami is never stated nor implied to be Kizaru's only method of SOL travel. Again this argument would imply that Kizaru's light is somehow slower than normal light without the usage of YTK which makes no sense.
 
I need to find the quote again but the databook said Kizaru spams attacks at lightspeed and against Drake he dispersed into light to travel to him instantly much like how Enel disperses into Lighting to travel around.
 
Well, TPoC summed it up pretty well.

@Tata So what do you think? Are these changes fine to apply?
 
ToPC explains it perfectly. It should be listed in Kizaru's weaknesses, though.

Only being able to travel in a straight line at SoL while is combative and reaction speeds are barely >half of that speed is a notable weakness, I'd think.

If the changes are acceptable, should we discuss who exactly is affected by the MHS+ and Rel+ upgrade? A list and who they scale to (perhaps a brief mention "why") should help those who don't understand.
 
CinCameron20 said:
It should be listed in Kizaru's weaknesses, though.
Only being able to travel in a straight line at SoL while is combative and reaction speeds are barely >half of that speed is a notable weakness, I'd think.
Click to expand...
This is also true
 
Calaca Vs said:
Soru is only 80km/h so it's legit
Click to expand...
alright time to turn this thread into an OP downgrade thread

first order of business, the entire verse is now SuperHuman
 
Agreed

Jokes aside, I'll wait one or two days for Ugarik's input to be sure everything here's correct. If he doesn't show up, we should start the changes.
 
I think the only thing that'd be under question is the Rel+ scaling, so I think I can list off who is what speed based off of keys and scaling:

(MHS) Mach 909: Nami Pre Time-skip (She isn't quite as fast as Kalifa, and has been caught by her from a distance, but her attack speed would be MHS+ due to using lighting, and her attacks have caught Kalifa off guard). The small gap in speed is enough to suggest Nami has ample time to avoid strikes from those who are this fast, especially from a distance. Usopp may also scale here unless he has feats to suggest otherwise.

Mach 1192: Kalifa (at least in reactions), And the 800-820 Doriki CP9 members (Seeing as how they should be at least as fast as her). Zoro, Sanji and Luffy in base as of Enies Lobby

>Mach 1192: Rest of CP9, Luffy w/ G2 (Enies Lobby and Thriller Bark)

  • This also applies to ALL of the straw hats post time-skip as of the Pre-Wano arcs including Sanji and Zoro unless they have a feat of matching G2 Luffy post time-skip.
    • Anyone scaling to the strawhats or post time-skip Base Luffy would scale here, like all of the Executives and Coliseum fighters.
Mach 5449: Hawkins Pre/Post time-skip and Zoro during Wano, and Law post time-skip (his speed would need to be discussed further once the Rel+ stuff is concluded)).

Mach 5691: Drake Pre/Post time-skip and Sanji during Wano. Would also apply to Page One, possibly.

Mach 6670: Gear 2nd Luffy Marineford and onwards. This scales to anyone who has matched his Gear 2nd during this time-frame--so no Rob Lucci, I'm afraid (Again, will need to be discussed further once Rel+ scaling is brought up)
 
Well I already have a post detailing why Smoker and Boa Hancock scale to Mach 6670 but for other possible candidates

Blackbeard intercepted Gear Second Luffy mid attack but he scales to higher anyway

Magellan might since he reacted to Gear Second and Impel Down is connected to Marineford but since this is Luffy and we know how much stronger and faster he can get in a short amount of time makes it questionable

Bartholomew Kuma? He was far faster then Gear Second in Sabaody but this is several arcs before Marineford and he was able to get in the middle of Kizaru and Rayleigh's duel while they were fighting
 
So if top tiers are rel+ and kuma is a rev commander whos capable of outpacing luffy casually and getting between kizaru and rayleigh is it possible he wasnt bs about lightspeed air cannons
 
Like I exlpained above, the air cannon projectiles probably aren't lightspeed. Just the reflection speed Kuma has is light speed, which makes sense since he can reflect attacks or push things back really fast.

Even if my interpretation is incorrect, that would mean a weakened Zoro is capable of dodging multiple light speed projectiles which doesn't make sense in terms of context.
 
Regarding supernovas' feats

This nature of these calcs seem shaky.

I mean, you are quantifyng the distance their eyeballs moved wrt light

Sure, on paper it looks right. The math also is right. But again, you are basing their speed on their eyeball movement. Not one, but two of them is based on them. And then it is chalked up as "consistent" when in essense both of them are based on same shaky principle. It is just "hiding the outlier" in my opinion.

As for drake's feat, it is better than the previous one, but context surrounding it is wierd. Why did he even look down? But let's forget that for a second, he also moved his head above before kizaru kicked him. I am not sure why you did not calc that when it would have given far more better results

Kiz
  • Drake= 2.33 meters= 227px
  • Screen= 294px
2*atan((Object height/panel height)*tan35)= 56.794542256352 degrees

Distance = 2.1549 meters

His head is 0.29m based on your blog, and he moved it 90 degree. That is 1/4th the circumference

C= 2*Pi*r= 1.8221237390820801/4= ~0.45 meter

Speed wrt light would be ~0.21c - Relativistic

Alright, I am assuming you did not calc this because this is blatant outlier. Which again relates to my reasoning of before, all these calcs are just hiding the outlier.

Also to note some things above the calc above

  • This is an absolutely low-end version of the feat. You cannot get lower results than this.
  • Kizaru is also standing at a distance from the screen, so the total distance between them is lower than what I have calcd.
  • Kizaru's kick was also (presumably) few centimeters away from his face, reducing the distance even more
About light speed kizaru
I also have issue in assuming any movement of kizaru is sol. Sure, arguing it is sol based on the fact his df is light makes sense, but not so much when in context. Kizaru's max speed is sol, assuming he uses his max speed for every movement seems faulty to me. Especially against characters who are relatively fodder to kizaru.

Secondly, did we not establish kizaru can only move in straight line with his df? Based on this logic alone his kick cannot be sol because kicks form an arc, not a straight line. This is more evident against drake, where we see on screen his kick making an arcrather than a straight line.

That being said, I am not saying to discredit kizaru's light speed entry totally. It should still apply if he transforms his entire body or part of his body into light, and his laser beams. That way rayliegh's feat and Marco's feat would still be usable, and honestly it makes it much more consistent too considering how they both are top tiers of verse.

Others
As for kalifa's feat, that only applies for her reaction speed correct? Because that is what it is.
 
All of these feats have been calced as reaction speed, which moving the eyeballs counts as. I never said that they scale to that outside of reaction speed actually and you can check on this very same thread that every instance where I justified someone scaling was based on they scaling to the reactions.

I didn't modify any calc but Luffy's because the perpective was shaky and going by what the panel shows us (which is what you did with Drake's) gives an inflated result because it assumes Borsalino is in that position when he starts moving, making the outlier actually a flawed calc.

I did take into account the two head movements Drake did in my calc, but the distance you used is based on when Kizaru is on screen while I used the distance between Drake and him before he disappeared in a ray of light, when the feat actually started.

So no, I'm not hiding any outlier.

If we start considering the logia dispersion a movement that only makes the user able to move like the element they represent in every single movement, Kuzan wouldn't move at all because ice, or Monet would have gravity acceleration speed. Borsalino can still move his body while in light form, but for movement and travel he shouldn't be able to control the trajectory because light travels in a straight path and he has no control over light physics. But he has control over his body.

And as for Kalifa, again, I'm only scaling that to her reaction speed which should be comparable (and possibly higher) than her normal speed.
 
All of these feats have been calced as reaction speed, which moving the eyeballs counts as. I never said that they scale to that outside of reaction speed actually and you can check on this very same thread that every instance where I justified someone scaling was based on they scaling to the reactions.

Does not counter anything really. It is still hiding the outlier, you are just using light as a basis to get results which are inflated, when no other feat comes relatively close to these, even reaction speeds.

I did take into account the two head movements Drake did in my calc, but the distance you used is based on when Kizaru is on screen while I used the distance between Drake and him before he disappeared in a ray of light, when the feat actually started.

Which makes no sense. Kizaru changed into light form and landed on ground, when drake was looking down. When kizaru kicked drake (travelling ground distance), he was looking up. You just used one movement and discarded other becuase it is blatant outlier. 2 movements and you only consider one, because it supports your narrative. This is indeed hiding the outlier

I didn't modify any calc but Luffy's because the perpective was shaky and going by what the panel shows us (which is what you did with Drake's) gives an inflated result because it assumes Borsalino is in that position when he starts moving, making the outlier actually a flawed calc.

Perspective is shaky based on what tho? It is as clear as it can get. Would be better if you provide scans to support these instead of baseless arguements

If we start considering the logia dispersion a movement that only makes the user able to move like the element they represent in every single movement, Kuzan wouldn't move at all because ice, or Monet would have gravity acceleration speed. Borsalino can still move his body while in light form, but for movement and travel he shouldn't be able to control the trajectory because light travels in a straight path and he has no control over light physics. But he has control over his body.

This is a failed attempt to correlate other logias to kizaru. There is a very basic difference between kizaru and others, his weakness is mentioned. He cannot travel in any other direction, only in straight line. And he does control his movement speed, we see him making an arc with his kick on-screen. You are just discarding it just cuz....

Why would Kizaru move slower than light speed as light?

Because as I previously stated

(1) They are relatively fodders. Better question is why would he used his full speed against fodders?

(2) He cannot change his directions while in logia form, thats why he uses short bursts of light to enhance his kick (thats why we see lines behind his shoes in every usage). A good example to compare would be Bakugo from BNHA. He uses explosions to enhance his natural speed, and/or change directions mid-air
 
>First paragraph

We have a feat at Mach 1192 and other feat at 0.57c with WoG supporting the evidence that this is actually possible. So how are three reaction speed feats closer to the former feat all outliers that I am deliberately hiding?

>Second paragraph

I considered just the movement, not the kick actually. I can totally dismiss the second head movement for all I care. The result would still be MHS+. This part is half right, because I didn't considered the distance between them when the second head movement started.

>Third paragraph

Look, I'm not going to look for scans I have in another PC I have no access just to prove it. Go look the calcs where the scans are. I also would like you bringing the scans supporting these claims.

But I'll explain: When Kizaru appeared in front of Luffy we see his leg halfway toward him, but the distance between his leg and Luffy is so ludicrously low that is impractic. You can't start a kick movement with that little room so instead I used a full kick arc to get the distance to work in context.

>Fourth paragraph

First of all, Kizaru's weakness has never been mentioned before in canon. It's just how we apply physics to his logia and his fruit works just as any other fruit works.

1) Because light cannot go at a slower speed.

2) This would imply that his light has some sort of physical effect which isn't the case. This is a thing that has never been mentioned neither for Kizaru nor in any other Logia user.
 
@Adam -

1) Assuming that Drake moved his head 90 degrees is outright wrong. His head might be angled slightly down (Looks more like 25-30 if we assume he was looking downward, but we're not level with his head. We are viewing from a higher point, so it could be less than 10.), but it actually looks like a perspective from a taller PoV shot, so we're looking slightly down on him, as the perspective is level with Kizaru, and higher than his leg. I doubt he moved his head more than a few degrees anyways. Would still be MHS+, probably touching Sub-Rel if it were wanked. I don't see how he's moving his head based off of this in any case, and if he did, it was far less than you claimed.

2) Explained in the first point, but again, if Drake is looking down, I personally can not find a reason why outside of a mistake, unless he was using his hat to shade himself from his blinding light (which we know is a plausible point to make).

3) Pass because I don't know what's being argued here atm.

4) I mean... Kizaru asked Basil if he'd ever experienced a light-speed kick before (and then kicked him 2 panels later). He also used Yata no Kagami to reach Apoo, which is unarguably a light-speed ability. His kick coming in as an arch doesn't really matter when it's just his actual leg that's in an arch. he'd still be moving the leg light speed, even if we assumed he kept the leg in the same angle since all he'd need to do is rotate his hips and femur to follow through (which can't be disproven since the leg isn't even properly drawn in the next panel... and that we see the rest of his body turned at an angle)

5) I Doubt Kizaru has an option to make himself "slower than speed of light" when his logia form is quite literally emitting light and turning himself into light. And no. He simply turns his body back to normal in order to move normally since he can't control it in his light-form since he has to follow the laws we've seen.
 
FullMetalLamps said:
Even if my interpretation is incorrect, that would mean a weakened Zoro is capable of dodging multiple light speed projectiles which doesn't make sense in terms of context.
Click to expand...
Assuming they were SoL, his speed would be at most Sub-Rel (but that was assuming he had cleanly dodged the paw attack that grazed his head, otherwise, it'd be MHS+. The case of him dodging the barrage of paws is questionable since all he had to do was rotate his body up to 120 degrees before they reached him. Another case that might be MHS+, possibly even Sub-Rel but we don't know)
 
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