One Piece: Pre-Timeskip AP Revision

[Eseseso]

I'm not saying his own LS wasn't carrying it, or that his striking strength is massively inferior to it.



Yeah, that's why I'm saying that a simple Gum-Gum Pistol from Luffy shouldn't be fully scaling to the Gold Rifle either.



Okay, not "feel weird", but "I don't see a good reason for Luffy's most basic attacks (which 2-shot Usopp) to scale to Luffy's best shown attack, which at this point is the Gold Rifle."

I'm aware I may be in the minority on this from a powerscaling standpoint, but even though Luffy was fighting Usopp "seriously" during their duel, I don't think his moves scale to the Gold Rifle punch.

I think it would be better if Usopp was downscaling to baseline City level to be honest considering how quickly he was taken down, and the other factors which made the Gold Rifle more powerful than Luffy's simpler attacks.

These are all good points.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm not saying his own LS wasn't carrying it, or that his striking strength is massively inferior to it.

His Striking Strength cannot be inferior to Golden Rifle's energy because Luffy was the cataclysm for that much energy.
He employed that much energy into the attack himself. No gravity, or angular movement (he actually had to go against gravity, so he employed more than 17 megatons into the punch)

Also, massive difference between Luffy at the start of the fight vs Luffy at the end of the fight with Enel.

 

[SnookB]

I'm not saying his own LS wasn't carrying it, or that his striking strength is massively inferior to it.

If that was the case then he shouldn't be able to strike with it at all. It's his arm's strength that's swinging it, not anything else.

Yeah, that's why I'm saying that a simple Gum-Gum Pistol from Luffy shouldn't be fully scaling to the Gold Rifle either.

That I agree with. Rifle hits way harder than Pistol as far as the canon's shown us.

I'm aware I may be in the minority on this from a powerscaling standpoint, but even though Luffy was fighting Usopp "seriously" during their duel, I don't think his moves scale to the Gold Rifle punch.

I think it would be better if Usopp was downscaling to baseline City level to be honest considering how quickly he was taken down, and the other factors which made the Gold Rifle more powerful than Luffy's simpler attacks.

Agreed, also.
Unless Luffy hit Usopp with a rifle, then we can't scale off him that technique itself. Downscaling to baseline seems like a fine neutral stand for me as well. Usopp being the "weakest" in the crew is likely enough grounds to land him at the baseline of every tier he scales to off the other straw hats.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm aware I may be in the minority on this from a powerscaling standpoint, but even though Luffy was fighting Usopp "seriously" during their duel, I don't think his moves scale to the Gold Rifle punch. (Obviously this isn't something I can't objectively prove since we can't measure Luffy's attacks against Usopp reliably from a calcing standpoint, but we've got to look at the context and why the Gold Rifle was so effective as an attack)

I think it would be better if Usopp was downscaling to baseline City level to be honest considering how quickly he was taken down, and the other factors which made the Gold Rifle more powerful than Luffy's simpler attacks.

Honestly I agree with downscaling to Baseline 7-B.

 

[Damage3245]

Unless Luffy hit Usopp with a rifle, then we can't scale off him that technique itself. Downscaling to baseline seems like a fine neutral stand for me as well. Usopp being the "weakest" in the crew is likely enough grounds to land him at the baseline of every tier he scales to off the other straw hats.

Thanks. Considering Usopp's general inferiority like you said, I think that downscaling him to baseline City level is a reasonable idea.

Honestly I agree with downscaling to Baseline 7-B.

Thanks.

@ByAsura; what do you think of my propsoal for downscaling Usopp to baseline 7-B instead of scaling to the full value of the Gold Rifle calc?

 

[ByAsura]

Neutral.

 

[Damage3245]

Neutral.

Okay, thanks for responding.

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, there's a few factors to the Golden Rifle that make it a bit different to an ordinary punch. Luffy's arm is twisted massively so that it unwinds and adds power to the attack, and Luffy starts the attack with his arm stretched way back to add extra momentum to it. It's not just the pure strength of one of Luffy's typical punches but also Luffy's elasticity adding onto it.

That's what makes it a "rifle".

What was calced was Luffy moving the ball in a straight line at a certain speed. The "rifle" portion wasn't, which is why there is no calc of spinning the ball.

The punch portion would be what scales to Luffy's regular physicals, which he already calced.
Nobody calced spinning the ball.

Having so much mass on the end of his arm, and launching the attack quickly, is going to end up making the attack more powerful than a typical punch. Like a person wielding a hammer if their hand could smash in the skull of someone whereas an ordinary punch wouldn't do as much damage to them.

Luffy broke the ball with said force.
People aren't breaking the hammer.

Luffy emitted enough force while the ball was already sent out to break the ball which could take the initial golden rifle impact. Luffy's emitted force > golden ball dura ~ golden rifle.
Bad comparison.

This seems roughly comparable to that to me, and explains the massive difference between say Luffy kicking Enel in the face and not sending him flying whereas the Gold Rifle certainly does not only send Enel flying but also moves the Golden Bell on top of that.

This is a regular Luffy kick, not a kick enhanced by the Gomu Gomu no Mi. False equivalence. It's confirmed those kicks are weaker than his Gomu Gomu enhanced attacks.

And Luffy kept pushing Enel with the golden ball after he hit him, which is why Enel didn't fly away.

That's why I'm wary about this from a powerscaling perspective in assuming that Luffy's punch to Usopp must be as strong as the Gold Rifle that was calced. I don't really think that Usopp should be fully scaling to the value of the Gold Rifle calc and being even more durable than Enel, especially considering that Usopp only took 2 hits from Luffy in the whole of their brief fight and he was incapacited by just those two. Way less than what Enel took, and making Usopp = Luffy's best feat based on just that doesn't seem right.

Usopp injured himself with the Impact Dial and Usopp was already injured from prior injuries from the same arc when he got his ass beat by the Franky Family. They flat out say in the fight that he was already injured badly.

Like come on now. This is narrative stuff with easy explanations.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Thanks. Considering Usopp's general inferiority like you said, I think that downscaling him to baseline City level is a reasonable idea.

Usopp could take the backlash of Luffy's Bazooka, which is twice as strong as his normal attacks, I don't know if baseline City level is appropriate.

 

[KingTempest]

Backscaling is unfounded.

Unless Char calced the momentum caused by spinning the ball, which he didn't, then this is fair game

 

[Damage3245]

Backscaling is unfounded.

Unless Char calced the momentum caused by spinning the ball, which he didn't, then this is fair game

Small correction but it was downscaling, not backscaling.

Will be back to this thread in a few hours.

 

[SnookB]

Usopp could take the backlash of Luffy's Bazooka, which is twice as strong as his normal attacks, I don't know if baseline City level is appropriate.

Would he scale to the Bazooka value then? Or would he just scale to Luffy's striking in general? The fact that he could stop an attack twice as strong as Luffy's base attacks does imply he's at least that durable (just not endurant enough to take it multiple times)

 

[Eseseso]

Usopp could take the backlash of Luffy's Bazooka, which is twice as strong as his normal attacks, I don't know if baseline City level is appropriate.

Agreed.

Would we say the Bazooka is comparable to the Gold Rifle?

Unless Char calced the momentum caused by spinning the ball, which he didn't, then this is fair game

Just curious, would it be possible to calc the spinning?

I'm just curious to see if it would affect the calc.

 

[KingTempest]

Would he scale to the Bazooka value then? Or would he just scale to Luffy's striking in general? The fact that he could stop an attack twice as strong as Luffy's base attacks does imply he's at least that durable (just not endurant enough to take it multiple times)

This is impact dial work, not Usopp work. He didn't block the bazooka, the impact dial absorbed the impact.

He scales to Luffy's striking

Just curious, would it be possible to calc the spinning?

I'm just curious to see if it would affect the calc.

Idk go find a method

 

[SnookB]

I realized- would Luffy's two handed attacks doubling the AP apply to Gear Second and third as well?
He does have bazooka variants with Jet and Gigant.
Doesn't need to be an immidiate answer since we're still on the topic of base Luffy, but it's worth asking

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Just curious, would it be possible to calc the spinning?

I'm just curious to see if it would affect the calc.

It would considerably increase the result. I might do that so it scales to Luffy's Rifle attacks.

 

[KingTempest]

I realized- would Luffy's two handed attacks doubling the AP apply to Gear Second and third as well?
He does have bazooka variants with Jet and Gigant.
Doesn't need to be an immidiate answer since we're still on the topic of base Luffy, but it's worth asking

yeah

 

[Eseseso]

I realized- would Luffy's two handed attacks doubling the AP apply to Gear Second and third as well?
He does have bazooka variants with Jet and Gigant.
Doesn't need to be an immidiate answer since we're still on the topic of base Luffy, but it's worth asking

Just curious, when has he used Jet Bazooka or Gigant Bazooka against major opponents?

Not to derail but that could be important later.

 

[KingTempest]

Just curious, when has he used Jet Bazooka or Gigant Bazooka against major opponents?

Not to derail but that could be important later.

This doesn't have anything to do with the CRT at hand.

Jet Bazooka was used on Lucci and Magellan. Gigant Bazooka was used on Oars

 

[Eseseso]

This doesn't have anything to do with the CRT at hand.

Jet Bazooka was used on Lucci and Magellan. Gigant Bazooka was used on Oars

Sorry, and thank you.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm still in agreement with KingTempest

1. The Mr. 3 thing isn't a good point first of all, a regular Candle Wall is not gonna be as stronger as the Candle Champion, which is notably like Mr. 3's strongest ability.

2. Remember the calc for the Golden Rifle isn't actually measuring the Rifle spin or anything like that. It's just measuring Luffy's ability to regularly punch a Golden Ball at those speeds, which he can do, meaning the force of his punch has that strength regularly and he could have done that whenever he wanted. Now this is also supported by how the Golden Peony is a comparable or stronger attack than the Golden Rifle and yet Shigan is stated to be stronger than it, meaning even someone like Kalifa has AP above the Golden Rifle, so narratively the notion that characters are above the Golden attacks is there

3. Usopp's durability absolutely scales to Luffy. Dude was severely damaged all over his entire body and took a punch from Luffy and immediately could keep fighting. He then also uses an Impact Dial to absorb a Bazooka and then withstands the blowback force of using it on Luffy. Like there is no way in hell Usopp does not scale.

 

[SnookB]

Now this is also supported by how the Golden Peony is a comparable or stronger attack than the Golden Rifle and yet Shigan is stated to be stronger than it, meaning even someone like Kalifa has AP above the Golden Rifle, so narratively the notion that characters are above the Golden attacks is there

Where was this stated? It basically seals the deal that CP>Golden attacks
Usopp took a direct hit from Jabura and immidiately got back up so he DEFINITELY scales over the golden rifle if it's stated Shigan is over it

 

[KingTempest]

Where was this stated? It basically seals the deal that CP>Golden attacks
Usopp took a direct hit from Jabura and immidiately got back up so he DEFINITELY scales over the golden rifle if it's stated Shigan is over it

Sorry I just found something.

"The fans sure like all kinds of powers, don't they? But the most powerful one so far is ranked 25th-- the finger pistol. The finger pistol has beaten both Luffy and Zolo, but they won't give up!! They'll battle on with their own powerful techniques!! You can do it, guys!!

So Shigan > Golden Peony and Golden Rifle

 

[SnookB]

Aren't the attack votes just a "favorite attacks" thing and not power-based, though?
Although Oda saying Shigan beat the guy who caused the attack itself is a confirmation that it's just-- OVER Luffy at that point, I dunno if the poll itself is much proof.

 

[KingTempest]

Aren't the attack votes just a "favorite attacks" thing and not power-based, though?
Although Oda saying Shigan beat the guy who caused the attack itself is a confirmation that it's just-- OVER Luffy at that point, I dunno if the poll itself is much proof.

"But the most powerful one so far is ranked 25th, the finger pistol"

The lists of attacks is a favorite attack thing.
But Oda said Shigan is the strongest one out of everything they named.

The poll isn't proof, the statement on the side about Shigan being superior to everything else is

 

[Damage3245]

Just want to say, even if we accept that as being valid it specifies the Shigan that beat Luffy and Zoro. A Shigan from Kalifa isn't necessarily going to as strong as Lucci or Kaku.

 

[SnookB]

"But the most powerful one so far is ranked 25th, the finger pistol"

How did I miss that-
Nevermind then. CP9>Golden attacks
Usopp is scaling based on the fact that he took bloodlusted attacks from Jabura even if the Golden attacks and Luffy aren't enough proof

 

[Damage3245]

How did I miss that-
Nevermind then. CP9>Golden attacks
Usopp is scaling based on the fact that he took bloodlusted attacks from Jabura even if the Golden attacks and Luffy aren't enough proof

Which chapter did Usopp take them?

 

[SnookB]

Which chapter did Usopp take them?

He took a Ten Finger pistol from Jabra while his guard was off

And got up again immidiately

 

[KingTempest]

Just want to say, even if we accept that as being valid it specifies the Shigan that beat Luffy and Zoro. A Shigan from Kalifa isn't necessarily going to as strong as Lucci or Kaku.

It says Shigan.
Doesn't care about who, it says Shigan, which means the Shigans from those who we know can use Shigan is superior to everything else there.

Usopp is scaling based on the fact that he took bloodlusted attacks from Jabura even if the Golden attacks and Luffy aren't enough proof

No, cause then this makes a loop.
Usopp scales below all of CP9.

 

[Eminiteable]

No, cause then this makes a loop.
Usopp scales below all of CP9.

Maybe separating Water 7 and Enies lobby keys for Usopp could be made, although I'm not sure anything but durability would change.

 

[KingTempest]

Maybe separating Water 7 and Enies lobby keys for Usopp could be made, although I'm not sure anything but durability would change.

This was my original plan

 

[Marlinmarley]

About the giants scaling, chapter 118 luffy fights and harms an angry dorry, dunno if that helps the eastblue keys

 

[Eseseso]

I'm still in agreement with KingTempest

1. The Mr. 3 thing isn't a good point first of all, a regular Candle Wall is not gonna be as stronger as the Candle Champion, which is notably like Mr. 3's strongest ability.

2. Remember the calc for the Golden Rifle isn't actually measuring the Rifle spin or anything like that. It's just measuring Luffy's ability to regularly punch a Golden Ball at those speeds, which he can do, meaning the force of his punch has that strength regularly and he could have done that whenever he wanted. Now this is also supported by how the Golden Peony is a comparable or stronger attack than the Golden Rifle and yet Shigan is stated to be stronger than it, meaning even someone like Kalifa has AP above the Golden Rifle, so narratively the notion that characters are above the Golden attacks is there

3. Usopp's durability absolutely scales to Luffy. Dude was severely damaged all over his entire body and took a punch from Luffy and immediately could keep fighting. He then also uses an Impact Dial to absorb a Bazooka and then withstands the blowback force of using it on Luffy. Like there is no way in hell Usopp does not scale.

You sir are an absolute savior.

Also, wouldn't Enies Lobby Usopp's Durability scale to AP (once it is split from Water 7) or not?

 

[Damage3245]

You sir are an absolute savior.

Also, wouldn't Enies Lobby Usopp's Durability scale to AP (once it is split from Water 7) or not?

AP doesn't scale off of durability like that.

 

[SnookB]

Also, wouldn't Enies Lobby Usopp's Durability scale to AP (once it is split from Water 7) or not?

His attacks mostly consist of his sniping. He actually rarely harms characters that can hurt him unless on specific occasions.

 

[Eseseso]

His attacks mostly consist of his sniping. He actually rarely harms characters that can hurt him unless on specific occasions.

Ok, fair.

Though people who can hurt Usopp would naturally scale to his durability even though its above his AP, right?

 

[SnookB]

Ok, fair.

Though people who can hurt Usopp would naturally scale to his durability even though its above his AP, right?

Yup. In most instances it seems Usopp's durability is what scales to others' AP and not vice versa, though.

 

[Eseseso]

Yup. In most instances it seems Usopp's durability is what scales to others' AP and not vice versa, though.

Got it.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Marlinmarley]

About the giants scaling, chapter 118 luffy fights and harms an angry dorry, dunno if that helps the eastblue keys

Reminder that dorry was injured and still seemed superior to luffy