One Piece: Pre-Timeskip AP Revision

[SnookB]

I wasn't denying that.

Then clearly they scale OVER their actual offense by an inditermined value.
Their laser and Kizaru's have comparable feats. Kizaru's laser caused Zoro to drop (albeit out of exhaustion), and PX's laser effectively one-shots Urouge, a comparable character (if not arguably greater in durability due to the amp)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm not willing to be convinced by unconvincing arguments. I make no apologies for that.

How is a databook statement an "unconvincing argument"?

 

[Damage3245]

How is a databook statement an "unconvincing argument"?

Because I don't believe that Kizaru's feat is a "base level of power" that all Pika-Pika feats automatically scaled to, regardless of him "using it on fodders" or not.

I think that the "Area of Effect" fallacy is inappropriately used sometimes, and that this proposal is being extremely selective in trying to make only the most powerful feats be treated as a baseline level of power for the characters.

It is convenient, I know not to use reality to "limit" feats, but that tends to end up with high-balls for everything.

I don't believe in high-balls for everything. I believe that consistency is key, and that this result isn't particularly consistent with other laser feats in the series.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because I don't believe that Kizaru's feat is a "base level of power" that all Pika-Pika feats automatically scaled to, regardless of him "using it on fodders" or not.

I think that the "Area of Effect" fallacy is inappropriately used sometimes, and that this proposal is being extremely selective in trying to make only the most powerful feats be treated as a baseline level of power for the characters.

Why does that matter? It's a laser, from his fruit, thus the offensive power it has.
Pacifista has that much offensive power.
They scale to 7-A regardless if that's the base level of power or not.

Like, where does your counter address this? It doesn't.

It's not "the most powerful feat", again, it's the only feat it displayed that's not awfully below what the laser should even scale to (Or do we say that the laser is Tier 8, and call it a day? No, because that'd be inconsistent with the durability of the characters)

 

[SnookB]

We agreed on the likes of Fujitora having a mountain level rating in Dressrosa just because he wasn't flattening everybody in that arc because we are aware he was holding back
Yet we're disagreeing that Kizaru's regular lasers can't have a base lower AP ... Even though he was holding back?
This'll lead to a different rabbit hole:

PRE-TS Zoro 6B durability

 

[Eseseso]

Another Pacifista question:

Since Hancock managed to destroy a few Pacifistas at Marineford IIRC AND some fodder no-name Whitebeard Pirates were able to damage and defeat a Pacifista, should Hancock be a 7-A and should anyone who damaged a large group of no-name fodder WB Pirates possibly scale to 7-A?

 

[Damage3245]

We agreed on the likes of Fujitora having a mountain level rating in Dressrosa just because he wasn't flattening everybody in that arc because we are aware he was holding back
Yet we're disagreeing that Kizaru's regular lasers can't have a base lower AP ... Even though he was holding back?
This'll lead to a different rabbit hole:

PRE-TS Zoro 6B durability

What I'm saying is that for the same reason we don't scale Zoro to 6-B for surviving Kizaru's attack, we shouldn't assume that the attack Kizaru used on him had to be 7-A either - just because it is convenient for us.

 

[SnookB]

we shouldn't assume that the attack Kizaru used on him had to be 7-A either - just because it is convenient for us.

It was enough to cripple him, the same as Pacifista's laser was enough to cripple Urouge.
Zoro's scaling anywhere from 72 to 100+ megatons. Being hit and incap'd by an attack that scales over his durability by 2 or 3 times stronger is literally as consistent as it gets.
Urouge shouldn't scale FAR below him, as he did arguably better against a PX than the trio initially did when going solo. He also got incap'd by a base laser from the Pika fruit/PX

 

[Damage3245]

I'll be back to this thread later tonight hopefully.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What I'm saying is that for the same reason we don't scale Zoro to 6-B for surviving Kizaru's attack, we shouldn't assume that the attack Kizaru used on him had to be 7-A either - just because it is convenient for us.

Zoro surviving an attack of 214 Megatons when he scales about that range is consistent, and it was via the same attack that yielded 7-A by an effortless Kizaru.

It was enough to cripple him, the same as Pacifista's laser was enough to cripple Urouge.
Zoro's scaling anywhere from 72 to 100+ megatons. Being hit and incap'd by an attack that scales over his durability by 2 or 3 times stronger is literally as consistent as it gets.
Urouge shouldn't scale FAR below him, as he did arguably better against a PX than the trio initially did when going solo. He also got incap'd by a base laser from the Pika fruit/PX

Remember to not use energy levels to classify consistency too, we go by tiers.

 

[SnookB]

Zoro surviving an attack of 214 Megatons when he scales about that range is consistent, and it was via the same attack that yielded 7-A by an effortless Kizaru.

Remember to not use energy levels to classify consistency too, we go by tiers.

My b. But the argument stands- guy only fell to an attack that otherwise one-shotted a somewhat comparable character due to exhaustion.

At this point this argument is only dragging on because of nitpicks

 

[Damage3245]

My b. But the argument stands- guy only fell to an attack that otherwise one-shotted a somewhat comparable character due to exhaustion.

At this point this argument is only dragging on because of nitpicks

I'll try and summarize my position on it later on and will be happy to drop it if other staff disagree with me after I've done that.

I've got a couple other points in the OP to move on to after that, then should be done with the thread.

 

[SnookB]

I'll try and summarize my position on it later on and will be happy to drop it if other staff disagree with me after I've done that.

I've got a couple other points in the OP to move on to after that, then should be done with the thread.

It stayed open for this long just to hear from all sides, so no rush! Take your time

 

[KingTempest]

If the databook flat out says that the Pacifista has the same offensive power as the laser, then the yield of the laser is the same.

Arguing "well he doesn't use the same yield throughout" needs proof to not be the same. The most supported viewpoint is that
"Kizaru's lasers has a value" -> "Pacifista's lasers are the same"

 

[Damage3245]

If the databook flat out says that the Pacifista has the same offensive power as the laser, then the yield of the laser is the same.

Arguing "well he doesn't use the same yield throughout" needs proof to not be the same. The most supported viewpoint is that
"Kizaru's lasers has a value" -> "Pacifista's lasers are the same"

I'll try to explain my core issue with it later today. It might be an issue that has no actual solution, in which case I'll drop it, but I feel like I've explaining it the wrong way so far with my arguments.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay - my issue is sort of tied together with how we're approaching this feat, the scaling and the Area of Effect fallacy.

Now, Kizaru's "offensive power" with his Devil Fruit is scaled to 6-B. His lasers & explosions do harm people on his level and we make no mention on his profile of his attacks with his Devil Fruit scaling substantially below his physical striking strength / other statistics.

But this isn't convenient because if we scaled everyone who has laser beams to Kizaru's level of power then we'd end up with massive inconsistencies from all of the Pacifista attacks Pre-Timeskip wielding supposedly 6-B levels of power with their blasts.

So the proposition is to ignore what Kizaru's beams could scale to and calculate their energy by measuring the explosions they leave behind. Now there's a big variety in the sizes of the explosions they generate. We see it all the time from his biggest shown to be able to engulf a Mangrove tree to the Pacifista's spamming out smaller explosions all the time.

The problem - and this is where it is tied into the AoE Fallacy - is that we assume that all of Kizaru's / the Pacifista's attacks have a constant value of energy. In other words, that their offensive power is equal to one value / tier and that is it. Anything that goes against this assumption is ignored.

I get why we tend to do this; our profiles would be ridiculously overcomplicated if we looked at every single attack and rated them separately all the time - but I think that the proposal for the Pacifista's here is an unnecessary high-ball. When we have a range of attack potency for the explosion-generating lasers, the proposal is only concerned with the biggest and most destructive explosion shown by Kizaru. I get it; it's the flashiest showing and incinerates a large volume of wood so it is naturally rated the highest compared to the multitude of other explosions generated in the fights. It's also the simplest; find the biggest AP showing, scale the characters to it by default.

But it isn't necessarily the most accurate. I don't know what's going through Oda's head; if he wants us to think that Kizaru's display of destroying the Mangrove means that he wants us to believe that is the default level of power for Kizaru's explosions, regardless of the repeated showing of far smaller explosions afterwards. Or if his intention is that Kizaru getting "carried away" in overzealously destroying the Mangrove is a showing that Kizaru could be more powerful than he normally is but he doesn't whip out that level of power / destruction for every fight.

Either way; it doesn't seem right to me that we one-sidedly ignore the size / potency of the explosions when it suits us such as the Pacifista's repeatedly creating smaller explosions with their attacks, but we also rely on the size / potency of the explosion when it provides a convenient result such as Kizaru creating an incredibly massive explosion in his debut. If the amount of destruction caused by the explosion is supposed to to give us a more accurate value for the AP than his scaling, why apply it so inconsistently and not look at the other showings?

(I'm obviously not going to suggest that Kizaru's massive explosion at the beginning is an outlier for him, considering he's done other massive explosions and he scales far higher anyway. But for the Pacifista's, who don't showcase that powerful of an explosion in any of their fights? It just makes me uncomfortable relying on pure scaling for them and ignoring their actual showings).

Either the amount of destruction / size of the explosion has nothing to do with the actual potency of Kizaru's attacks - in which case his initial feat shouldn't accurately be labelled as 7-A in the first place when it could actually just be a 6-B feat, or the varying size of the explosions means that the beam's strength isn't a single consistent value and we shouldn't automatically label every feat the Pacifista's lasers as 7-A when they could be lower than that.

Final Bit

Sorry if this turned into a bit more of a rant than an explanation, like I intended. I hope it makes some amount of sense to people and I'm aware that there's a possibility there's no easy or actual solution to my problems here. I'm aware that VSBW isn't a perfect system, as much as we'd like it to be.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I hope you don't mind if I don't address points that come from your personal opinion rather than logical argumentation. It helps me cut the fat from my reply, which I will be doing soon.

 

[Damage3245]

I hope you don't mind if I don't address points that come from your personal opinion rather than logical argumentation. It helps me cut the fat from my reply, which I will be doing soon.

I'm aware that a lot of it comes from just my point of view and I don't expect everyone to see things the same way as me. I'm more trying to explain why I'm viewing the feat the way that I am, as I don't want to give the impression that I'm just going against the feat because I'm biased or ignorant.

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, just wanna give a massive kudos to @KingTempest and @GodlyCharmander for doing so much work, as the pre-timeskip stuff had always felt a tad bare-boned IMO.

You 2 are the GOATs.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Okay - my issue is sort of tied together with how we're approaching this feat, the scaling and the Area of Effect fallacy.

Now, Kizaru's "offensive power" with his Devil Fruit is scaled to 6-B. His lasers & explosions do harm people on his level and we make no mention on his profile of his attacks with his Devil Fruit scaling substantially below his physical striking strength / other statistics.

I want to address this first.

This is just a misconception on how we rate Kizaru's offensive power in the first place. Do we consider his AP as 6-B with his fruit? Not entirely, no.
You can look at Kizaru's profile. We actually take his lasers and pure light abilities as Durability Negation through heat, piercing and tearing through bodies while ignoring conventional physical resistance. We do not impose any energy value to said lasers, and much less their explosions. This calculation, however, attempts to do just that. Put into perspective how much energy these lasers have behind them when they explode, which do not necessarily scale to Kizaru's 6-B AP, nor does it relate in any way to his durability negation through heat or other named attacks. The fact is, your own argumentation falls flat once you even say yourself that you think a Devil Fruit should not have a definitive power level.

So the proposition is to ignore what Kizaru's beams could scale to and calculate their energy by measuring the explosions they leave behind. Now there's a big variety in the sizes of the explosions they generate. We see it all the time from his biggest shown to be able to engulf a Mangrove tree to the Pacifista's spamming out smaller explosions all the time.

The problem - and this is where it is tied into the AoE Fallacy - is that we assume that all of Kizaru's / the Pacifista's attacks have a constant value of energy. In other words, that their offensive power is equal to one value / tier and that is it. Anything that goes against this assumption is ignored.

Getting to this, I understand where you're coming from. But how exactly does that make any sense in the narrative?
We know the lasers are capable of generating 7-A levels of power. This much is undeniable, unless you have a problem with the calculation itself.
We also have official sources stating that the Pacifista's lasers are comparable to Kizaru's laser in offensive power. This is also true.

Thus, the Pacifista should scale to the 7-A value of energy. It is rather simple, and does not have any assumption in it.
"Well, it's an assumption to say they scale to THAT value in specific rather than 8-C sized explosions!"
That is just nitpicking, and you should really provide reasoning behind your doubts other than just "Well, it doesn't HAVE to be that".
Because our reasoning is pretty logical.

• Kizaru's casual "nameless" laser output is 7-A. Pacifista's scale to his offensive power (with the nameless laser specifically). Pacifista's should be 7-A;

Sorry Damage, but just saying "It doesn't have to be like that" isn't convincing.

Again, the explosion sizes fall under AoE fallacy because their size are inconsistent with what they are capable of, which is damaging characters who are far into Tier 7 territory. And let me give you a little spoiler, none of these explosions would go past Low-Tier 8. It wouldn't make sense to calculate them, their sizes are clearly not an indicator to how much energy they pack. This is why this proposition is not a solution to our scenario in any way, shape or form.

I get why we tend to do this; our profiles would be ridiculously overcomplicated if we looked at every single attack and rated them separately all the time - but I think that the proposal for the Pacifista's here is an unnecessary high-ball. When we have a range of attack potency for the explosion-generating lasers, the proposal is only concerned with the biggest and most destructive explosion shown by Kizaru. I get it; it's the flashiest showing and incinerates a large volume of wood so it is naturally rated the highest compared to the multitude of other explosions generated in the fights. It's also the simplest; find the biggest AP showing, scale the characters to it by default.

But it isn't necessarily the most accurate. I don't know what's going through Oda's head; if he wants us to think that Kizaru's display of destroying the Mangrove means that he wants us to believe that is the default level of power for Kizaru's explosions, regardless of the repeated showing of far smaller explosions afterwards. Or if his intention is that Kizaru getting "carried away" in overzealously destroying the Mangrove is a showing that Kizaru could be more powerful than he normally is but he doesn't whip out that level of power / destruction for every fight.

Either way; it doesn't seem right to me that we one-sidedly ignore the size / potency of the explosions when it suits us such as the Pacifista's repeatedly creating smaller explosions with their attacks, but we also rely on the size / potency of the explosion when it provides a convenient result such as Kizaru creating an incredibly massive explosion in his debut. If the amount of destruction caused by the explosion is supposed to to give us a more accurate value for the AP than his scaling, why apply it so inconsistently and not look at the other showings?


Either the amount of destruction / size of the explosion has nothing to do with the actual potency of Kizaru's attacks - in which case his initial feat shouldn't accurately be labelled as 7-A in the first place when it could actually just be a 6-B feat, or the varying size of the explosions means that the beam's strength isn't a single consistent value and we shouldn't automatically label every feat the Pacifista's lasers as 7-A when they could be lower than that.

I'm sorry to say that, but this last bit just screams "Death of the Author" so hard to me.

You need to understand two things. First, the size of the actual explosion used in the calculation is not a key component to our scaling. It's what the energy does to the mangrove that matters.
Second, we are not scaling the Pacifista's lasers to the default level of Kizaru's lasers. We're considering them the same. If Kizaru's lasers can generate 7-A energy, the Pacifista's can as well.
It does not matter if said value were to vary for a multitude of reason, the Pacifistas would still scale to the 7-A value as it was done with the nameless lasers which they scale to regardless.

Furthermore, as a cyborg programmed for optimal elimination, the Pacifista would not, a hundred percent, hold back in their power when dealing with the Straw Hats or any of the Worst Generation. Why would it? It wants to do its mission as effectively as it can. If it can shoot lasers with a zillion joules of energy to destroy it's target, it is going to do just that.

I am not planing on addressing size variation as an indicative of lower levels of power. That is a logical conclusion, but it's contradicted by what's demonstrated in their fight, sizes are not a representative of energy level. Thus, this conclusion just becomes an appeal to reality, in my opinion. I don't find these points particularly convincing, though.

 

[KingTempest]

Also different materials are being taken into consideration.

Most of the explosions target the ground while the only air one targeted a mangrove. Different sized explosions aren’t just based on the yield. There’s much to be taken into consideration

 

[Damage3245]

Also different materials are being taken into consideration.
Most of the explosions target the ground while the only air one targeted a mangrove. Different sized explosions aren’t just based on the yield. There’s much to be taken into consideration

Fair.

You can look at Kizaru's profile. We actually take his lasers and pure light abilities as Durability Negation through heat, piercing and tearing through bodies while ignoring conventional physical resistance. We do not impose any energy value to said lasers, and much less their explosions. This calculation, however, attempts to do just that. Put into perspective how much energy these lasers have behind them when they explode, which do not necessarily scale to Kizaru's 6-B AP, nor does it relate in any way to his durability negation through heat or other named attacks. The fact is, your own argumentation falls flat once you even say yourself that you think a Devil Fruit should not have a definitive power level.

Is Kizaru going to get a rating with DF attacks based on this calc? It seems that there should be some acknowledgement at least.

We know the lasers are capable of generating 7-A levels of power. This much is undeniable, unless you have a problem with the calculation itself.
We also have official sources stating that the Pacifista's lasers are comparable to Kizaru's laser in offensive power. This is also true.

The lasers being capable of generating 7-A explosions doesn't mean they always have to, is more of my point. When the Pacifista charges up a laser that it is about to shoot, then it is contained inside its own head and explodes... we don't know that laser would have had 7-A energy behind it. It's being assumed that is the case.

I know that's not a convincing argument. I just don't like how powerscaling is used to liberally to this degree; Kizaru's best calced feat is 7-A, if Kizaru can do a 7-A attack then Pacifista's could do a 7-A attack, therefore all Pacifista attacks are 7-A, their durability is 7-A, anyone who ever damaged them is 7-A, etc, etc. It's just powerscaling out of control based on the highest interpretation.

Furthermore, as a cyborg programmed for optimal elimination, the Pacifista would not, a hundred percent, hold back in their power when dealing with the Straw Hats or any of the Worst Generation. Why would it? It wants to do its mission as effectively as it can. If it can shoot lasers with a zillion joules of energy to destroy it's target, it is going to do just that.

Let me ask; why do the explosions that the Pacifista generate appear consistently less impressive than the first Mangrove explosion?

For Dragon Ball characters - as inconsistent as that verse is - there is an explanation of Ki control & characters intentionally holding back. But if the Pacifista is programmed not to hold back in any way, and we know that they should be capable of explosions that are several hundred meters in diameter, then why don't their explosions appear that big?

And if the size of the explosions isn't dependent on their energy/potency, then what does detirmine the size of the explosions?

 

[KingTempest]

Let me ask; why do the explosions that the Pacifista generate appear consistently less impressive than the first Mangrove explosion?

Also different materials are being taken into consideration.

Most of the explosions target the ground while the only air one targeted a mangrove. Different sized explosions aren’t just based on the yield. There’s much to be taken into consideration

Even Kizaru’s other laser explosions aren’t this big.

This isn’t the matter of an outlier, it’s the different mechanics in each scenario

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Is Kizaru going to get a rating with DF attacks based on this calc? It seems that there should be some acknowledgement at least.

Not quite, the fruit's dura neg is used more often, and Kizaru has ways to employ his own AP with the DF being an amp (With his kicks and light sword for example)

The lasers being capable of generating 7-A explosions doesn't mean they always have to, is more of my point. When the Pacifista charges up a laser that it is about to shoot, then it is contained inside its own head and explodes... we don't know that laser would have had 7-A energy behind it. It's being assumed that is the case.

Kizaru's best calced feat is 7-A, if Kizaru can do a 7-A attack then Pacifista's could do a 7-A attack

It not always being 7-A is not being disputed. I am saying that Pacifista's lasers can reach 7-A, and they'd always shoot out their lasers at their peak.
I mean.
Kizaru's nameless laser is 7-A, and we have direct confirmation that this feature was remodeled to perfection in the pacifistas, and they scale to
We don't know if 7-A is the maximum power the laser can even reach.
Robin shut its mouth when it was about to shoot it out, so it was close to its peak. We know, at least, that the Pacifista was trying to shoot out the laser at its stronger, which might as well be above 7-A anyway.

Let me ask; why do the explosions that the Pacifista generate appear consistently less impressive than the first Mangrove explosion?

For Dragon Ball characters - as inconsistent as that verse is - there is an explanation of Ki control & characters intentionally holding back. But if the Pacifista is programmed not to hold back in any way, and we know that they should be capable of explosions that are several hundred meters in diameter, then why don't their explosions appear that big?

The attacks are targeted.

 

[Damage3245]

It not always being 7-A is not being disputed. I am saying that Pacifista's lasers can reach 7-A, and they'd always shoot out their lasers at their peak.
I mean.
Kizaru's nameless laser is 7-A, and we have direct confirmation that this feature was remodeled to perfection in the pacifistas, and they scale to
We don't know if 7-A is the maximum power the laser can even reach.
Robin shut its mouth when it was about to shoot it out, so it was close to its peak. We know, at least, that the Pacifista was trying to shoot out the laser at its stronger, which might as well be above 7-A anyway.

Okay. I'm not strongly in favor of it, but I can agree that this is a fairly reasonable approach.

So I'll drop the issue for the Pacifista scaling (unless something else comes up later on).

I'll get to the last remaining points in the OP as soon as I can.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay. I'm not strongly in favor of it, but I can agree that this is a fairly reasonable approach.

So I'll drop the issue for the Pacifista scaling (unless something else comes up later on).

I'll get to the last remaining points in the OP as soon as I can.

Just curious, aside from the Gold Rifle, what else would you like to discuss?

I'm honestly just curious.

 

[SnookB]

This isn’t the matter of an outlier, it’s the different mechanics in each scenario

Idk if it was said but it could also be a distance thing.
Every small explosion came from the lasers being shot only several meters. The tree explosion travelledd hundreds of meters (if not a few kilometers) so it could have lost the concentrated force during that travel that the rest of the short distance ones have.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think that the Chessmarimo calc uses a reliably consistent size for the size of the destroyed area.

Going by a comparison of the scaled destroyed area to the main door of the castle, the door would be around 100 meters tall. And the windows would be perhaps 30 meters tall.

But as we can tell from clear shots like this, while the door is obviously big it is nowhere near as big as that. We can see this is the case in shots of the characters next to the door here and here in the same chapter as the feat.

In chapters 146, 147 and 148 we also get some shots of the characters here, here, here and here next to the door. They're not completely dwarfed by it as they should be if the door was really 100 meters tall. Towards the end of the arc here and here, both the door and the destruction to the walls is still shown to be a lot smaller than it should be based on the calc.

Lastly we get a good overhead shot of the castle here in chapter 147, and we know from the number of windows on the outside and the stairs on the inside that the outer wall to the castle is around two storeys tall. That's consistent with the main door being much bigger than the individual people as it covers both storeys but it's still a lot smaller than 100 meters or so.

@Dark-Carioca mentioned his doubts on the sizes used in the comments for the calc so I'd like for them to take a look at my comment here if they could and say if they still have the same concerns after what I've posted.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think that the Chessmarimo calc uses a reliably consistent size for the size of the destroyed area.

Going by a comparison of the scaled destroyed area to the main door of the castle, the door would be around 100 meters tall. And the windows would be perhaps 30 meters tall.

But as we can tell from clear shots like this, while the door is obviously big it is nowhere near as big as that. We can see this is the case in shots of the characters next to the door here and here in the same chapter as the feat.

In chapters 146, 147 and 148 we also get some shots of the characters here, here, here and here next to the door. They're not completely dwarfed by it as they should be if the door was really 100 meters tall. Towards the end of the arc here and here, both the door and the destruction to the walls is still shown to be a lot smaller than it should be based on the calc.

Lastly we get a good overhead shot of the castle here in chapter 147, and we know from the number of windows on the outside and the stairs on the inside that the outer wall to the castle is around two storeys tall. That's consistent with the main door being much bigger than the individual people as it covers both storeys but it's still a lot smaller than 100 meters or so.

@Dark-Carioca mentioned his doubts on the sizes used in the comments for the calc so I'd like for them to take a look at my comment here if they could and say if they still have the same concerns after what I've posted.

That's fair, I'll be adjusting the calc

Would you be willing to reevaluate the newer version when I do so?

 

[Damage3245]

That's fair, I'll be adjusting the calc

Would you be willing to reevaluate the newer version when I do so?

Sure. Don't know how active I'll be on here today, but I'll definitely take a look at it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sure. Don't know how active I'll be on here today, but I'll definitely take a look at it.

Calc's been adjusted.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Using highlighted characters with environment is not supposed to be consistent and or accurate... Idk why we use it over other methods that uses the least of highlighted things that we can.

Just wanted to say that because I don't see many that takes that into account

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I don't think that the Chessmarimo calc uses a reliably consistent size for the size of the destroyed area.

Going by a comparison of the scaled destroyed area to the main door of the castle, the door would be around 100 meters tall. And the windows would be perhaps 30 meters tall.

But as we can tell from clear shots like this, while the door is obviously big it is nowhere near as big as that. We can see this is the case in shots of the characters next to the door here and here in the same chapter as the feat.

In chapters 146, 147 and 148 we also get some shots of the characters here, here, here and here next to the door. They're not completely dwarfed by it as they should be if the door was really 100 meters tall. Towards the end of the arc here and here, both the door and the destruction to the walls is still shown to be a lot smaller than it should be based on the calc.

Lastly we get a good overhead shot of the castle here in chapter 147, and we know from the number of windows on the outside and the stairs on the inside that the outer wall to the castle is around two storeys tall. That's consistent with the main door being much bigger than the individual people as it covers both storeys but it's still a lot smaller than 100 meters or so.

@Dark-Carioca mentioned his doubts on the sizes used in the comments for the calc so I'd like for them to take a look at my comment here if they could and say if they still have the same concerns after what I've posted.

Your concerns are more or less the same as mine, I wanted to see different shots since the calc's proposed height for the castle was quite egregious.

 

[SnookB]

Using highlighted characters with environment is not supposed to be consistent and or accurate... Idk why we use it over other methods that uses the least of highlighted things that we can.

Just wanted to say that because I don't see many that takes that into account

Same reason I argued about the skypiea trees before.
Though in the case of the door it seems the more consistent size is the smaller one. The closer shots make it smaller, while the skypiea trees closer shots make them massive.
Usually "highlight" is used when the characters are further

 

[Eseseso]

Oof on the sheer scope of that Chessmario change (from 536 tons to less than 1000th of that), but good call on it and the size issues, Damage

 

[KingTempest]

I forgot @GodlyCharmander

I got these

Early OP Calcs

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I forgot @GodlyCharmander

I got these

Early OP Calcs

vsbattles.fandom.com

Well, that's certantly a plot twist. Adding to the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think this new calc for the Buggy Bomb should affect the characters back in the Orange Town arc; it is substantially more powerful than the one calced in that arc. Over 50 times more powerful in fact, and doesn't seem to be consistent with the feats at the time.

Also, it just seems better to me to use the same explosion calc for the Buggy Bombs from the same arc for scaling the characters, than a separate explosion from a later point in time.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think this new calc for the Buggy Bomb should affect the characters back in the Orange Town arc; it is substantially more powerful than the one calced in that arc. Over 50 times more powerful in fact, and doesn't seem to be consistent with the feats at the time.

Also, it just seems better to me to use the same explosion calc for the Buggy Bombs from the same arc for scaling the characters, than a separate explosion from a later point in time.

It's still in the BoS era, it scales. It was generally agreed that the power of the characters before they set foot in Alabasta is the exact same.

 

[Damage3245]

It's still in the BoS era, it scales. It was generally agreed that the power of the characters before they set foot in Alabasta is the exact same.

I'm saying that I don't think it should be used over the other one just because it happens to be a higher value. I think we should be using the one from the actual Orange Town arc which is just as valid a calculation.