One Piece: Pre-Timeskip AP Revision

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm saying that I don't think it should be used over the other one just because it happens to be a higher value. I think we should be using the one from the actual Orange Town arc which is just as valid a calculation.

But this one is not being restricted by several buldings, and actually expands in an omnidirectional manner, unlike the first one, where we just take into account what it was shown to destroy (We don't know if it wouldn't destroy more powerful material)

This calc is better, just generally.

 

[Damage3245]

But this one is not being restricted by several buldings, and actually expands in an omnidirectional manner, unlike the first one, where we just take into account what it was shown to destroy (We don't know if it wouldn't destroy more powerful material)

This calc is better, just generally.

The Orange Town one also involves even more scaling steps and has a clearer, closer shot of the explosion, from what I can tell. I don't think that the new one is necessarily better and the consistency angle is still important to go over.


Also I won't be able to continue the discussion until tomorrow, but can I ask why is it that Kalifa specifically is the one from CP9 who is being scaled to the value of the Gold Rifle? Will try to get back to this tomorrow when I can.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The Orange Town one also involves even more scaling steps and has a clearer, closer shot of the explosion, from what I can tell. I don't think that the new one is necessarily better and the consistency angle is still important to go over.

The effects that the changes in angle would have in the final result is marginal at best. This doesn't really diminishes the other ways this particular calc is better than the other one.
The restriction of the buildings, and the assumption that what it destroyed was the best it could've done should be reasoning enough to use the other Buggy Bomb calc over it, as it's still a valid calc regardless.
What, should we consider it an outlier? I don't think so.

Also I won't be able to continue the discussion until tomorrow, but can I ask why is it that Kalifa specifically is the one from CP9 who is being scaled to the value of the Gold Rifle? Will try to get back to this tomorrow when I can.

Usopp and Luffy's Durability = Gold Rifle's KE

Kalifa can hurt Usopp Tier characters.

 

[Damage3245]

The effects that the changes in angle would have in the final result is marginal at best. This doesn't really diminishes the other ways this particular calc is better than the other one.
The restriction of the buildings, and the assumption that what it destroyed was the best it could've done should be reasoning enough to use the other Buggy Bomb calc over it, as it's still a valid calc regardless.
What, should we consider it an outlier? I don't think so.

Will continue the discussion for this tomorrow.

Usopp and Luffy's Durability = Gold Rifle's KE

I thought we generally didn't use the kinetic energy of Luffy's attacks to justify his durability because of his rubbery body. He can withstand being harmed by much stronger attacks than himself thanks to her elasticity, so his own durability wouldn't need to scale to his own attacks.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I thought we generally didn't use the kinetic energy of Luffy's attacks to justify his durability because of his rubbery body. He can withstand being harmed by much stronger attacks than himself thanks to her elasticity, so his own durability wouldn't need to scale to his own attacks.

Usopp survived Luffy's attacks. Everyone who survives Luffy's attack scales, it comes back around to Kalifa anyway;

 

[KingTempest]

I thought we generally didn't use the kinetic energy of Luffy's attacks to justify his durability because of his rubbery body. He can withstand being harmed by much stronger attacks than himself thanks to her elasticity, so his own durability wouldn't need to scale to his own attacks.

Kalifa hurt Usopp, who took a hit from Luffy, who exerted the energy. That's where the scaling chain is from, not in Luffy's durability.

 

[Damage3245]

Usopp survived Luffy's attacks. Everyone who survives Luffy's attack scales, it comes back around to Kalifa anyway;

I know. Was addressing the Luffy bit specifically for now.

Kalifa hurt Usopp, who took a hit from Luffy, who exerted the energy. That's where the scaling chain is from, not in Luffy's durability.

Noted.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I know. Was addressing the Luffy bit specifically for now.

I just said Luffy because naturally his Durability should be superior to Usopp's.

 

[GroundX1]

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I see. So upgrade buggy balls to 6-B because buggy who watched roger and whitebeard fight thinks he can rule the grand line with it.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump?

 

[Damage3245]

Bump?

Posting soon tonight to continue the discussion.

 

[Eseseso]

Posting soon tonight to continue the discussion.

No rush, man.

I don't want to pressure you, I just didn't want this CRT to die.

 

[Damage3245]

No rush, man.

I don't want to pressure you, I just didn't want this CRT to die.

There's no danger of that.

 

[SnookB]

I see. So upgrade buggy balls to 6-B because buggy who watched roger and whitebeard fight thinks he can rule the grand line with it.

This should canonically be a thing ffs. The guy was all hot blooded and motivated on rivaling SHANKS then just- rolled downhill.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, so the first thing I'd like to clear up is how Buggy is scaling to the calcs, regardless of which calc we use.

Durability: At least City Block level+ (Is fine after being hit by the Buggy Bomb Explosion twice. Took multiple blows from Monkey D. Luffy)

1) The calc that is being used currently in Buggy's justification is this one which doesn't calculate the actual explosion of the Buggy Bomb, but rather the kinetic energy of the cannonball plowing through multiple houses and destroying them (prior to the explosion) and getting a City Block level+ result.

2) The actual explosion of the Buggy Bomb at the time of the Orange Town arc is this calc which is Large Building level+.

3) Of the feats where Buggy is endures the Buggy Bomb's explosions, I can't find any direct evidence that Buggy was hit head-on by the cannonball and therefore tanked the kinetic energy of the bomb prior to the explosion.

3.1) Here is the first sequence from Chapter 11. Buggy is evidently within the explosion radius as he is scuffed up by the explosion and coughing from the smoke created but there's no sign of it actually hitting him directly.

3.2) Here is the second sequence from Chapter 15. This one is even worse as a durability feat because not only is it not shown that Buggy was hit by the cannonball, but he also used some of his own men as human shields so he's not directly harmed by the explosion.

So of the two feats of Buggy "being fine after being hit by the Buggy Bomb Explosion twice", the first one should be using the explosion calc instead of the KE calc, and the second one isn't a valid durability feat.

So my proposal is that we downgrade that version of Buggy to Large Building level+ from City Block level+.

The second thing to get to is which calc do we actually use for the Buggy Bomb explosion, and for that I think that using the actual calc from the same arc where Buggy performed his feat is far better than backscaling from some 200+ chapters later. For the later feat, we don't even know for certain that it is a Buggy Bomb that he used given that it isn't named as such in the manga as far as I'm aware, and he might have improved his explosives for all we know even if it was in fact a Buggy Bomb. It was 200+ chapters after the Orange Town arc after all.

Unless there's some convincing reason for why we should backscale this calc all the way back to the Orange Town arc, I think that my proposal would be best and we just downgrade Buggy slightly instead.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

3.1) Here is the first sequence from Chapter 11. Buggy is evidently within the explosion radius as he is scuffed up by the explosion and coughing from the smoke created but there's no sign of it actually hitting him directly.

The Buggydama plows through buldings in its path before exploding. If it explodes onto Buggy, that means the cannon ball cannot pierce through his body, and it just bursts.
The Anime shows the cannon was aimed directly at Buggy, and he deliberately does not move from that spot. It's very apparent the ball hit Buggy.

So my proposal is that we downgrade that version of Buggy to Large Building level+ from City Block level+.
200+ chapters later.

I did not notice the explosion occurred after Alabasta. Yeah, I do not agree with the new calc being backscaled anymore, I was under the impression it happened during the BoS era sometime after Orange Town. Buggy Bomb has shown to grow stronger each passing arc as shown with Buggy at Impel Down being able to hurt G2 Level Opponents.

 

[Damage3245]

The Buggydama plows through buldings in its path before exploding. If it explodes onto Buggy, that means the cannon ball cannot pierce through his body, and it just bursts.
The Anime shows the cannon was aimed directly at Buggy, and he deliberately does not move from that spot. It's very apparent the ball hit Buggy.

The Buggy Bomb is a bit inconsistent in that regard since it also exploded against the building where Buggy's men were at in the 2nd feat instead of plowing through it.

Buggy wasn't shown to be directly hit by the bomb for the 1st feat in either the manga or the anime. At the very least we can assume it exploded near him and he caught enough of the blast to be scaled to the explosion, but I don't think there's sufficient evidence for him to scale to the KE calc.

I did not notice the explosion occurred after Alabasta. Yeah, I do not agree with the new calc being backscaled anymore, I was under the impression it happened during the BoS era sometime after Orange Town. Buggy Bomb has shown to grow stronger each passing arc as shown with Buggy at Impel Down being able to hurt G2 Level Opponents.

Okay.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The Buggy Bomb is a bit inconsistent in that regard since it also exploded against the building where Buggy's men were at in the 2nd feat instead of plowing through it.

Luffy halted the original Kinetic Energy and sent it back. It obviously doesn't have the 8-B+ KE anymore, so it exploded.
This isn't a factor for the first feat, so it shouldn't be compared.

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy halted the original Kinetic Energy and sent it back. It obviously doesn't have the 8-B+ KE anymore, so it exploded.
This isn't a factor for the first feat, so it shouldn't be compared.

Fair point.

I still think it would be better if we scaled Buggy to the calc for the explosion than for the Buggy Bomb's KE, since we don't see it directly hit him. That seems safer to me.

EDIT: I'm fine taking this to a separate CRT though, since we don't need to drag this one out as Buggy is no longer a factor in the OP.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

EDIT: I'm fine taking this to a separate CRT though, since we don't need to drag this one out as Buggy is no longer a factor in the OP.

I agree with this. I don't think/know if there's any sort of plausible scaling with Hakoku or the Sea King, so I won't touch on those for now (unless someone else suggests it)

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, last thing for me to get into is the Gold Rifle stuff. Will post on that soon.


EDIT: By the way, things might be a bit clearer if you put together a sandbox with all the proposed changes - at least as far as Pre-Timeskip profiles go.

 

[ByAsura]

Luffy used Mr. 3's candle wax to break his wax when he couldn't do it himself, despite it shattering upon impact.

It's the exact same situation as the Golden Rifle.

 

[SnookB]

Luffy used Mr. 3's candle wax to break his wax when he couldn't do it himself, despite it shattering upon impact.

It's the exact same situation as the Golden Rifle.

Not even close to being the same.
He used the wax's weight, gathered hella kinetic energy via spinning and using his rubbery ability to basically add all that weight to the speed of his speed to launch off.

With Golden Rifle he literally just carried and swung it. He had no means of building momentum.

 

[ByAsura]

I think you missed this scan.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Luffy twist the hell out of his arm to add momentum?

 

[Eseseso]

Speaking of Gold Rifle, after that matter is discussed, will that be the last issue before this thread can be approved?

 

[Damage3245]

I think you missed this scan.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Luffy twist the hell out of his arm to add momentum?

Yes, there's a few factors to the Golden Rifle that make it a bit different to an ordinary punch. Luffy's arm is twisted massively so that it unwinds and adds power to the attack, and Luffy starts the attack with his arm stretched way back to add extra momentum to it. It's not just the pure strength of one of Luffy's typical punches but also Luffy's elasticity adding onto it.

Having so much mass on the end of his arm, and launching the attack quickly, is going to end up making the attack more powerful than a typical punch. Like a person wielding a hammer if their hand could smash in the skull of someone whereas an ordinary punch wouldn't do as much damage to them. This seems roughly comparable to that to me, and explains the massive difference between say Luffy kicking Enel in the face and not sending him flying whereas the Gold Rifle certainly does not only send Enel flying but also moves the Golden Bell on top of that.

That's why I'm wary about this from a powerscaling perspective in assuming that Luffy's punch to Usopp must be as strong as the Gold Rifle that was calced. I don't really think that Usopp should be fully scaling to the value of the Gold Rifle calc and being even more durable than Enel, especially considering that Usopp only took 2 hits from Luffy in the whole of their brief fight and he was incapacited by just those two. Way less than what Enel took, and making Usopp = Luffy's best feat based on just that doesn't seem right.

Speaking of Gold Rifle, after that matter is discussed, will that be the last issue before this thread can be approved?

Probably.

 

[SnookB]

I think you missed this scan.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Luffy twist the hell out of his arm to add momentum?

Yes, but that's still a weight he's FULLY carrying across the entire area and his arm is HIS momentum. Twisting his arm to add momentum is still his own body's momentum, not grabing onto a rod, spinning faster and faster to add hella velocity to all the mass he's carrying, THEN striking with it.

The hammer instance is more close to the Golden Rifle one. Luffy's striking strength is great enough to swing that weight with enough force to break the wall, simple as that. His initial bazooka wasn't even intended for the defense wall, so there's not a lot to take out of that other than him distributing greater force across a wider range.

 

[ByAsura]

Still, he wouldn't carry that much force with a standard attack that doesn't have extremely high angular momentum.

Luffy otherwise could never break through the wax at any point, though, and I don't even see why the Bazooka not being intended for it should matter when it's presented as a serious attack. He always had to use Mr. 3's wax, so I don't see how that's valid here.

Firstly, 'greater force' objectively means it's more powerful. Secondly, 'wider range' would actually mean the attack is less effective due to pressure. Real hammers are effective tools because they have a harder surface and act across a smaller area (+ there's also gravity).

 

[Eseseso]

Because of Damage's and ByAsura's points on the whole Gold Rifle stuff (like the arm twisting), I'm going to abstain on the Gold Rifle stuff for the time being unless the other side can rebut these points.

 

[ByAsura]

If we decide it doesn't scale to his normal AP, I still think he should have the attack listed as a technique in his AP (not to mention that it's definitely on par with his durability).

 

[SnookB]

Yes, there's a few factors to the Golden Rifle that make it a bit different to an ordinary punch. Luffy's arm is twisted massively so that it unwinds and adds power to the attack, and Luffy starts the attack with his arm stretched way back to add extra momentum to it. It's not just the pure strength of one of Luffy's typical punches but also Luffy's elasticity adding onto it.

Still Luffy's own LS carrying it. He can twist and yank all he wants, but if he can't PHYSICALLY carry it, his body would snap HIM back to the golden ball, not the other way around. That's how rubber works. If his arm wasn't strong enough to yank the weight, then his body would instead snap back to the ball itself.

massive difference between say Luffy kicking Enel in the face and not sending him flying whereas the Gold Rifle certainly does not only send Enel flying but also moves the Golden Bell on top of that.

An unnamed attack. We already approved of the fact that Luffy can ADD greater force with twisting and stretching. It's HIS BODY'S ability. An unnamed kick to Enel's face<<<< a named technique with a far longer stretch of his arm than his usual attacks (outside of just the Bazooka on Wapol)

That's why I'm wary about this from a powerscaling perspective in assuming that Luffy's punch to Usopp must be as strong as the Gold Rifle that was calced. I don't really think that Usopp should be fully scaling to the value of the Gold Rifle calc and being even more durable than Enel, especially considering that Usopp only took 2 hits from Luffy in the whole of their brief fight and he was incapacited by just those two. Way less than what Enel took, and making Usopp = Luffy's best feat based on just that doesn't seem right.

This, I'm neutral on. Saying Usopp shouldn't scale to Luffy's strikes because "it feels weird" is not really an argument as much as it's a personal opinion. Enel was wheezing on the floor after a single kick from Luffy in his base, and got his face smushed in and hella blood drawn from another unnamed kick in his strongest form.
He's never been the most durable when taking hits from Luffy, he just took them and continued even though they were wrecking him.

 

[ByAsura]

Still Luffy's own LS carrying it. He can twist and yank all he wants, but if he can't PHYSICALLY carry it, his body would snap HIM back to the golden ball, not the other way around. That's how rubber works. If his arm wasn't strong enough to yank the weight, then his body would instead snap back to the ball itself.

I'm pretty sure that's already accounted for by the added angular momentum, gravity and mass of the gold. He wouldn't need greater physical strength, just a greater net force.

 

[SnookB]

I'm pretty sure that's already accounted for by the added angular momentum. He wouldn't need greater physical strength, just a greater net force.

Except for the fact that the guy kept his arm up for a good amount of time during the initial exchange before he fell:

He was literally still carrying it the entire time and not twisting. Enel stopped his initial offense and Luffy didn't immidiately fall to the weight until he got stabbed out of the air.

 

[ByAsura]

That's fair. I think it should be good.

 

[ByAsura]

I've already addressed that, but anyway, Snook's final argument was convincing enough.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I've already addressed that, but anyway, Snook's final argument was convincing enough.

I didn't realize, my b.

 

[SnookB]

Looking at the chapter now, the strike itself didn't rely on his snap to swing upwards. Seems Luffy's swing even the second time around was a frontal punch than an upwards one due to his Rocket.

He snapped up:

Then stopped mid-air, FACED FORWARD AGAIN, his arm stretched fully back (implying the ball was already fully horizentally carried by then)

Then swung it straight forward as he was initially going to do before he was stopped:

The entire reason he shot up the second time was-- just for that. To face Enel again, instead of uppercutting him with the ball. The entire swing is Luffy's arm going from left to right in a straight forward shot.

 

[Damage3245]

Still Luffy's own LS carrying it. He can twist and yank all he wants, but if he can't PHYSICALLY carry it, his body would snap HIM back to the golden ball, not the other way around. That's how rubber works. If his arm wasn't strong enough to yank the weight, then his body would instead snap back to the ball itself.

I'm not saying his own LS wasn't carrying it, or that his striking strength is massively inferior to it.

An unnamed attack. We already approved of the fact that Luffy can ADD greater force with twisting and stretching. It's HIS BODY'S ability. An unnamed kick to Enel's face<<<< a named technique with a far longer stretch of his arm than his usual attacks (outside of just the Bazooka on Wapol)

Yeah, that's why I'm saying that a simple Gum-Gum Pistol from Luffy shouldn't be fully scaling to the Gold Rifle either.

This, I'm neutral on. Saying Usopp shouldn't scale to Luffy's strikes because "it feels weird" is not really an argument as much as it's a personal opinion. Enel was wheezing on the floor after a single kick from Luffy in his base, and got his face smushed in and hella blood drawn from another unnamed kick in his strongest form.
He's never been the most durable when taking hits from Luffy, he just took them and continued even though they were wrecking him.

Okay, not "feel weird", but "I don't see a good reason for Luffy's most basic attacks (which 2-shot Usopp) to scale to Luffy's best shown attack, which at this point is the Gold Rifle."

I'm aware I may be in the minority on this from a powerscaling standpoint, but even though Luffy was fighting Usopp "seriously" during their duel, I don't think his moves scale to the Gold Rifle punch. (Obviously this isn't something I can't objectively prove since we can't measure Luffy's attacks against Usopp reliably from a calcing standpoint, but we've got to look at the context and why the Gold Rifle was so effective as an attack)

I think it would be better if Usopp was downscaling to baseline City level to be honest considering how quickly he was taken down, and the other factors which made the Gold Rifle more powerful than Luffy's simpler attacks.

 

[Eseseso]

I want to agree, but I'll wait to see what Kingtempest has to say in favor of Gold Rifle.

Just to be sure.