One Piece Post-Timeskip Update #2

[SnookB]

@SnookB: not quite the argument I'm making. Some of your points don't make sense; the Birdcage isn't being manipulated by a clone that's weaker than Doflamingo. It's being produced by Doflamingo's own Devil Fruit. He doesn't divide off a portion of energy and send it outside of his body to be controlled by something else.

The birdcage is created through the Black Knight, which scales lower than Doflamingo. Whether Doffy has actual control over it later isn't known, and assuming it isn't the nature of the Black Knight to remain a bird cage until the user CAN'T willingly have that clone stay active is beyond headcanon.
Either A: The Black Knight is the Bird Cage itself, and we have no evidence of Doffy actively holding it up or saying "I'll make it stronger" when the meteorites were getting dragged down. He wasn't even paying attention to it. But that's STILL headanon because Doffy getting KO'd takes the bird cage out.
Or B: The Bird Cage, created from Black Knight, ceases to become the seperate Black Knight and HAS to be held up by Doflamingo, and that was being done without being mentioned ONCE. Which is also headcanon.
The safest assumption, UNTIL further is revealed, is to say the Black Knight/Bird Cage are passive once they're created, because Doffy was far too busy to tend to the bird cage during his fight with Luffy.

I'm not trying to downplay the characters by only judging them by their worst feats. I'm trying to make a comprehensive judgement using all of the character's showings and see what makes the most consistent sense.

I'm not saying you are. I'm saying your comprehensive arguments are easily broken down when you note the consistency of admirals, unlike pirates, actively holding back to not destroy too much.
Kizaru was literally TOLD to hold back.
And Fujitora's meteorites?
His 2 strongest meteorites were:

• In a not populated island as far as we know (since th Tontatta were already out of it and Fuji's observation would've NO DOUBT noticed that)
• In the OPEN SEA
• On a threat to a whole kingdom, which he recognizes as such.

Vs his weakest Meteorite on the beach:
- WHERE THERE WERE OTHER MARINES nearby

If you're not willing to say that Fujitora holds back only when circumstances such as unnecessary casualties call for it, then it's definitely downplay. Judging a character's weaker feat because of blatant narrative purposes that are consistent with OTHER characters that share the rank and responsibility, is flat out downplay.

 

[Damage3245]

Alrighr guys, Damage was just having a rough days, don't make it worse by saying "downplay this, downplay that"

Nah, it's no problem.

I get where people are coming from.

Things could be simplified enormously if we just scaled everyone to two Country level/Country level+ calcs... but I have to question if it is consistent.

We have this chain of calcs here:

• Fujitora's Ferocious Tiger ---> 21.7 Megatons (City level)
• Fujitora's Meteor on Green Bitt beach ---> 40.9 Megatons (City level)
• Fujitora's Rubble Lift ---> 70.95 Megatons (City level+)
• Law's Durability ---> 78.8 Megatons (City level+)
• Law's Mountain Slice ---> 204.6 Megatons (Mountain level)
• Oven's Sea Boil ---> 312.3 Megatons (Mountain level)

Which are all relatively close together and seems to make sense to me for the high-tiered Dressrosa arc characters. Whether Whitebeard or the Yonko scale to Country level doesn't affect this, but changing everything up so that Fujitora's normal attack potency is Country level+ is a huge change.

 

[KingTempest]

Although I disagree with the downplay accusations

If you're not willing to say that Fujitora holds back only when circumstances such as unnecessary casualties call for it, then it's definitely downplay. Judging a character's weaker feat because of blatant narrative purposes that are consistent with OTHER characters that share the rank and responsibility, is flat out downplay.

I agree that this and the end of his argument are good arguments for non-outlier Issho

 

[KingTempest]

Nah, it's no problem.

I get where people are coming from.

Things could be simplified enormously if we just scaled everyone to two Country level/Country level+ calcs... but I have to question if it is consistent.

We have this chain of calcs here:

• Fujitora's Ferocious Tiger ---> 21.7 Megatons (City level)
• Fujitora's Meteor on Green Bitt beach ---> 40.9 Megatons (City level)
• Fujitora's Rubble Lift ---> 70.95 Megatons (City level+)
• Law's Durability ---> 78.8 Megatons (City level+)
• Law's Mountain Slice ---> 204.6 Megatons (Mountain level)
• Oven's Sea Boil ---> 312.3 Megatons (Mountain level)

Which are all relatively close together and seems to make sense to me for the high-tiered Dressrosa arc characters. Whether Whitebeard or the Yonko scale to Country level doesn't affect this, but changing everything up so that Fujitora's normal attack potency is Country level+ is a huge change.

Another one for dura of Doflamingo's strings (and some other stuff), 420 Megatons

 

[Damage3245]

Another one for dura of Doflamingo's strings (and some other stuff), 420 Megatons

Interesting. Another Mountain level calc.

 

[SnookB]

We have a shared consistency anyway with Issho's strongest meteorites, PRE-TS Akainu, and casual WB.
JUST as we have a shared consistency with Kizaru scaring fodder nuking that tree, then being told not to do that again and never doing it, even when fighting another high tier like Rayleigh.

The issue is that we have consistency for both casual and not Fujitora, and both are justifiable by actual feat consistency AND narrative consistency. Ignoring it just wrong, in my opinion.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; to settle this on a potential compromise, I have a suggestion.

We know that Devil Fruit users, even though they're using the same 'Devil Fruit power' to fuel their techniques doesn't mean that every attack or technique they use is portrayed as being equal in power.

I highly doubt that Ace's Fire Gun is comparable to his Flame Emperor.

Or Enel's 10 million volt Varie is comparable to his El Thor. (would get more pics for comparison but too lazy)

And there's probably lots of cases like this where obviously a character is capable of lower end attacks and higher end attacks. (Machvise using 10 Tons then going up to 10,000 Tons, etc.)

So what I propose is that we scale Fujitora's regular statistics with his other feats/calcs of fighting, and we say he can go "up to Country level+ with meteors" and we link his various meteor calcs for that. So we make a distinction between what he shown to do normally in combat, and what he is shown to do with meteors available.

This way we take into account his other feats, and the calcs of Law and Doflamingo as well, and we don't dismiss his meteor showings.

If this is okay to try out at first, I'll put it in the sandbox like that and we can make a proper evaluation afterwards once we see how things turn out with the other ratings.

 

[SnookB]

^^ Seems most reasonable. Confident as Fuji is when dragging his meteorites down, we've seen him repel them via his ability or just never get hit anyway to assume he can physically tank one.
That looks like the safest thing until a character that physically scales to him can destroy one of his greater meteorites, or he shows the ability to survive them.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

and we say he can go "up to Country level+ with meteors"

So... You mean Country level+ with devil fruit and without devil fruit scaling to above law?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I good suggestion would be that

"up to Country level+ with meteors" and we link his various meteor calcs for that.

But put Unknown without his devil fruit as we haven't seen him actually fight seriously

 

[Stefano4444]

So what I propose is that we scale Fujitora's regular statistics with his other feats/calcs of fighting, and we say he can go "up to Country level+ with meteors" and we link his various meteor calcs for that. So we make a distinction between what he shown to do normally in combat, and what he is shown to do with meteors available.

Problem here its that nearly all the energy of the feat come directly from Issho's own strength and not from Earth's gravity, as proven by Arc7Kuroi.

It doesn't make sense to limit Country level+ to just the meteors and assume that his AP remain the same.

Like if i a can throw a small rock at supersonic speed with enough force to destroy a wall, do you think i am only Wall level when throwing rocks?

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano4444; until it's shown that Fujitora has that much power outside of when he uses it for his meteors then I think its a fair comprise.

Just because two attacks both use his Devil Fruit as a base doesn't mean they have to be the same level of power.

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano4444; until it's shown that Fujitora has that much power outside of when he uses it for his meteors then I think its a fair comprise.

By that logic we might as well do the same with Whitebeard/Blackbeard since they never show Country level feats outside the tsunamies.

 

[Damage3245]

By that logic we might as well do the same with Whitebeard/Blackbeard since they never show Country level feats outside the tsunamies.

They're not the subject of this CRT.

 

[Stefano4444]

They're not the subject of this CRT.

The CRT also include Whitebeard's 12.64 Teratons feat, WB its a subject of this thread for sure.

So tell me how many feats of Whitebeard that don't include the Tsunamies are 6-B? Last time i check most of them are well below Tier 6?

Does that means that even Whitebeard's Tsunamies shouldn't scale?

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano4444; that's one option. Personally I'm not in favor of that right now and I want to leave Whitebeard alone.

Fujitora/Law/Doflamingo have a more consistent grouping of calcs as alternatives which Whitebeard and the characters comparable to him don't have.

 

[SnookB]

Last I checked some abilities scale to the user's body, if not directly DEPEND on the user's own capabilities to be greater.
Doffy's birdcage only disappeared when he was out. Awakenings generally eat at one's stamina. Law's ability on the regular is said to be based off his own body's endurance and how big he can create his rooms-

The one and only problem here is that we're scaling a current admiral SO FAR BELOW the pre timeskip admirals physically. When his country level scaling, or at least small country because of his bird cage meteorites, should be applied. Otherwise we're all open to the idea of Kizaru, Akainu and Aokiji one shotting Fujitora. With the exception of fruits that rely on creating things (Like Mont D'or's books, or Door Door's/Mirror Mirror's dimensions) there's no reason for an ability user to scale to their own ability.
Fujitora does have an active feat of re-using his ravity to send a meteorite flying back to the sky, implying he can project the same amount of gravity he can use to pull things in.

This shouldn't scale too far off the fact that Luffy and Sanji can stop Big Mom's strike, and the fact that the scaling would generally make sense for them to be at that level if Big Mom simply scales OVER Fujitora's strongest meteorite, without having to worry about Luffy's multipliers surpassing the CURRENT CAP of 6B value that we have.

I find it funny how accepting the current chain and bouncing the high tiers off it makes more sense than not, is all. Again- later arcs, but we know Luffy's base only got far stronger during the Katakuri fight as well, which means Fujitora taking a G3 hit, which scales to the lower value of 6B along Sanji, makes sense for non-casual Fujitora (and the rest of the god tiers by extension) to be flat out in the higher ranges of 6B.
There's simply too much that connects with just one arc later that makes Fujitora's highest rating actually possible, than not.

 

[Damage3245]

The one and only problem here is that we're scaling a current admiral SO FAR BELOW the pre timeskip admirals physically

This is not a problem. We've done it for years and there is no direct scaling connecting Fujitora to the other Admirals.

 

[SnookB]

The issue with One Piece is that the arcs are so big and can't be condensed when scaling, yet later arcs also connect to previous ones even in said scaling- I can side with either leaving it or not, but this will only come up again in the whole cake revisions when G3 Luffy's scaling goes back to Fujitora taking a hit from it.

For now, focusing on Dressrosa, Fujitora being at "Up to" makes sense in DRESSROSA ARC context, but with later arcs it becomes far less of a possibility and more consistent. I'm remaining neutral in this, but both sides make sense. One within the arc being revised, and the latter in the grand scope of things.

 

[Damage3245]

I can side with either leaving it or not, but this will only come up again in the whole cake revisions when G3 Luffy's scaling goes back to Fujitora taking a hit from it.

We haven't reached that point yet. I was going to address that once we'd settled some of the Dressrosa stuff.

 

[SnookB]

We haven't reached that point yet. I was going to address that once we'd settled some of the Dressrosa stuff.

In that case, I'm on the side of leaving it at "up to" until further notice. Or better reasoning is brought up in context of this arc.

 

[joshpiece]

I think Fuji should Atleast scale to his gravity at it’s peak now should he have a varies tier or scale him differently physically that’s up to y’all.

But the feat imo should definitely be used for scaling whenever we have statements like strongest paramica or Akainu having the highest Df attack power that directly compares the god tiers Df power and puts them above Fuji’s. Only a 5x difference too it’s not that major of a difference to say it’s an outlier imo. Now if it was 20 or 50x difference then yeah I’d agree with it being an outlier.

 

[Stefano4444]

Another one for dura of Doflamingo's strings (and some other stuff), 420 Megatons

The 420 Megatons its for each string or multiple strings?

 

[KingTempest]

The 420 Megatons its for each string or multiple strings?

Multiple

1 string would be 70

G4th breaking 9 of em would be 630

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway, I don't have more arguments to make at the moment so I'm going to work on the sandbox later this afternoon & this evening when I'm free, and I'll put together two versions. One using the suggestion I brought up above, and one with the other proposal on the thread. That way we can compare them later on.

 

[Eminiteable]

I think Fuji should Atleast scale to his gravity at it’s peak now should he have a varies tier or scale him differently physically that’s up to y’all.

I agree with this with his gravity he should scale to the value (which scales to both AP & dura due to him blocking with gravity shields), however his physicals need to scale to a different value until proven otherwise.

I also don't think anyone in Dressrosa has shown to scale to Fujitora's gravity manipulation (at least not the calc's value)

 

[KingTempest]

Confused why an Issho feat is such a painful topic

Literally the only people who scale to Issho are the god tiers

Nobody in Dressrosa backscales, nobody scaled above, no one is relative.

 

[KingTempest]

And I feel like I missed something

Why is “up to” a discussion?

 

[Damage3245]

And I feel like I missed something

Why is “up to” a discussion?

I'm not sure about the part.

Also, you say nobody is involved in scaling to Fujitora, but what about Sabo and Luffy? (And though I don't agree with it, Zoro too has Fujitora mentioned on his profile)

 

[Eminiteable]

Also, you say nobody is involved in scaling to Fujitora, but what about Sabo and Luffy? (And though I don't agree with it, Zoro too has Fujitora mentioned on his profile)

That scaling should be removed, none of them have valid justification to scale to Fuji's full power gravity.

 

[Stefano4444]

Literally the only people who scale to Issho are the god tiers

Actually Doflamingo, Jack the Drought and Gear 4th Luffy should logically at least scale/backscale to Issho.

Doffy wasn't afraid to Issho even after the truth come out and he has enough confident that that he could have defeat him.

This is the same guy who was really afraid of Kaido, he is not someone who tend to overestimate himself and he would knew if he its fighting a losing battle.

Luffy should scale as he defeated Doffy in his Gear 4th after a long fight.

Jack when trying to rescue most likely fought both Issho and Tsuru and yet he was able to escape without suffer serious injuries, so he should logically backscale.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not sure about the part.

Also, you say nobody is involved in scaling to Fujitora, but what about Sabo and Luffy? (And though I don't agree with it, Zoro too has Fujitora mentioned on his profile)

Issho canonically held back against Sabo, which is why I made it where he doesn’t scale to him.

He sent Luffy flying with a named attack and clashed with him without Koka on his swords

Zoro, it was there for support for superiority to G2nd Luffy, but Zoro doesn’t scale to Issho

Actually Doflamingo, Jack the Drought and Gear 4th Luffy should logically at least scale/backscale to Issho.

Doffy wasn't afraid to Issho even after the truth come out and he has enough confident that that he could have defeat him.

Doffy said that even with his entire team, putting him down would be a hard task.

Luffy should scale as he defeated Doffy in his Gear 4th after a long fight.

Scales to above

Jack when trying to rescue most likely fought both Issho and Tsuru, so he should logically backscale.

Fought their fleets, not them. Fighting the ships of someone does not mean he fought the person, unless Issho came off the ship, which makes little sense

 

[Stefano4444]

Doffy said that even with his entire team, putting him down would be a hard task.

Hard but not impossible, for this to happen Doflamingo would had been at least comparable to Issho.

As otherwise neither him or anyone else in his crew would had be strong enough to defeat the blind admiral.

Fought their fleets, not them. Fighting the ships of someone does not mean he fought the person, unless Issho came off the ship, which makes little sense

He fought both fleets and them, i don't see why Issho and Tsuru wouldn't fight Jack in this instance.

Especially when there was no one else strong enough to fight Jack, unless you think Bastille would have been enough.

 

[Eminiteable]

Hard but not impossible, for this to happen Doflamingo would had been at least comparable to Issho.

As otherwise neither him or anyone else in his crew would had be strong enough to defeat the blind admiral.

Does Doflamingo even have a good idea of how strong Fujitora is at full power to make any judgement that he can win? Also his idea of victory could have also involved Sugar whenever she woke up again.

He fought both fleets and them, i don't see why Issho and Tsuru wouldn't fight Jack in this instance.

Especially when there was no one else strong enough to fight Jack, unless you think Bastille would have been enough.

That's not confirmed, our only info on those events come from a newspaper article that doesn't go into much detail, it's the reason why that scaling got removed from the profiles in the first place.

 

[Stefano4444]

Does Doflamingo even have a good idea of how strong Fujitora is at full power to make any judgement that he can win?

He did heard stories about Issho and Ryokugyu's strength and he consider both of them as formidable.

So he should be more than aware of what Issho its capable to do, and like i say we know that Doffy isn't full of himself as he was clearly afraid of Kaido.

If he wasn't afraid of Issho, it means that he genuinely think that he could had potentially defeat him in a fight.

Also his idea of victory could have also involved Sugar whenever she woke up again.

That would requid a lot of assumptions, like:

- Would Sugar even get the chance to slap Issho in the middle of the fight, seeing how advance its his Observation Haki?

- Would Sugar even fight on the battlefield in the first place, as aside of her speed she its really physically weak?

- Would trully Doflamingo just relying on Sugar to win against Issho?

- Was even imply that Sugar would had been the key to victory against the admiral?

No, the most likely and logical conclusion its that Doffy would had been at least close to Issho in term of AP.

That's not confirmed, our only info on those events come from a newspaper article that doesn't go into much detail, it's the reason why that scaling got removed from the profiles in the first place.

Unless you think that regular marines and the ship cannons where the cause of Jack defeat, the only ones who could had done that were Issho, Tsuru or Sengoku.

 

[DiedrichYagami]

I agree with scaling from Fujitora's gravity feat. As for his physicals, this is something yet to be settled up, but we can scale it from G3rd Luffy given that Issho could block and match his punches with his sword and now that we won't have Luffy scaling that far behind the others, I guess it's feasible.

 

[Damage3245]

If he wasn't afraid of Issho, it means that he genuinely think that he could had potentially defeat him in a fight.

He might not act afraid when around others such as his crew but he did panic when Fujitora dropped a meteor on him, even when that meteor was fairly small.

 

[KingTempest]

Hard but not impossible, for this to happen Doflamingo would had been at least comparable to Issho.

As otherwise neither him or anyone else in his crew would had be strong enough to defeat the blind admiral.

This is based on
A. If he would get him off guard
B. If would even fight him directly

The only time we see a fight between them, Issho blocks him without issue.

Law was gonna fight Kaido. He had a 30% chance of accomplishing the plan. We scaling Punk Hazard Law to Kaido now?

Plans don't mean much.

He fought both fleets and them, i don't see why Issho and Tsuru wouldn't fight Jack in this instance.

Especially when there was no one else strong enough to fight Jack, unless you think Bastille would have been enough.

This is not how fleet battles work.

Spoiler: Explanation of Battles Between Fleets

Fights between ships work via leadership and technological advancement.

They even thought that they'd beat the scabbards by sinking their rowboat.

Which is why the Straw Hats, with phenomenal fighters, almost lost to Kaido's fodder.

The only time that people actually clash in fleet battles is if they have the capabilities to travel to other ships or if they throw flying slashes or attacks that travel long distances, which the others can't do because it would destroy their own ships, or not have the capability to do.

We saw a fleet battle between the Straw Hats and Garp's Fleet. We scaling them to Garp now?

 

[KingTempest]

He might not act afraid when around others such as his crew but he did panic when Fujitora dropped a meteor on him, even when that meteor was fairly small.

He was losing his shit and Issho called it a "test".

Doffy has no reason to scale to him

 

[Stefano4444]

He might not act afraid when around others such as his crew but he did panic when Fujitora dropped a meteor on him, even when that meteor was fairly small.

He was show to be afraid of Kaido in front of Buffalo and Baby 5, he isn't someone who try to act cool in front of his "family".

And its more like he was just surprise to Issho's careless rather than afraid to be killed, not when he easily destroy a portion of the meteor.