- 4,781
- 7,395
To add to this. Enma stealing Zoro's haki was said as it stealing his LIFE FORCE. There's a connection between Enma sapping Zoro's Haki, and it draining his very life in the process.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece: Massive Haki Redux
- Status
- 21,468
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #82
Well Life Force and Soul are kinda different, but thanks for at least giving that evidence for life force
- 18,728
- 13,753
Initial Stage:
This isn't anything haki related, it's stated that it's because of luffy's battle experience
- Examples include Luffy as of Marineford
- 4,781
- 7,395
And it can't be coincidence that the exact same smoke-like effect is present when Enma's sucking Zoro's life, similiar to when BIG MOM did it to Luffy's boundman. Soul manip via Haki drain has consistency between Linlin's DF and Enma's effects. (Both visual and narrative)
It's also the fact that Luffy running out of boundman is always shown with him exhaling smoke out, but in here you see that smokey effect around Linlin, and there's loads of that same stuff getting dragged off his whole body rather than just his mouth.
So whether it's Life Force manip resistance or Soul manip resistance is.. Generally up for debate. I'd say Zoro lasts longer when Enma's doing it than when Boundman clashed with BM, mostly because Zoro's haki is currently stronger than the Luffy that clashed with her during the wedding. Stronger Haki>better resistance.
It's also the fact that Luffy running out of boundman is always shown with him exhaling smoke out, but in here you see that smokey effect around Linlin, and there's loads of that same stuff getting dragged off his whole body rather than just his mouth.
So whether it's Life Force manip resistance or Soul manip resistance is.. Generally up for debate. I'd say Zoro lasts longer when Enma's doing it than when Boundman clashed with BM, mostly because Zoro's haki is currently stronger than the Luffy that clashed with her during the wedding. Stronger Haki>better resistance.
- 18,728
- 13,753
magazine vol 10, you can read the image description
- 18,728
- 13,753
I guess we just need some statement about what it is or what's happeningAnd it can't be coincidence that the exact same smoke-like effect is present when Enma's sucking Zoro's life, similiar to when BIG MOM did it to Luffy's boundman. Soul manip via Haki drain has consistency between Linlin's DF and Enma's effects. (Both visual and narrative)
It's also the fact that Luffy running out of boundman is always shown with him exhaling smoke out, but in here you see that smokey effect around Linlin, and there's loads of that same stuff getting dragged off his whole body rather than just his mouth.
So whether it's Life Force manip resistance or Soul manip resistance is.. Generally up for debate. I'd say Zoro lasts longer when Enma's doing it than when Boundman clashed with BM, mostly because Zoro's haki is currently stronger than the Luffy that clashed with her during the wedding. Stronger Haki>better resistance.
- 21,468
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #88
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
I don't see how this is different to her other instances.
Haki has never looked like that when it's actually been used, and Big Mom already activated her haki in the previous page to block the Kong Gun so no it's not her activating haki.
It doesn't matter if we see him powering down on screen, after Big Mom stole Luffy's haki he was unable to walk on his own for several pages and was still being carried by Sanji. Meanwhile the actual two instances where Luffy did deactivate his powers willingly he had none of these issues.
He said "Don't leave me yet strength" as his power was forcibly leaving him due to being at his limit, the difference with that example and Big Mom is he literally just entered Gear Fourth so he's nowhere near his limit, and against Big Mom he felt the need to say his power is draining; if he was doing it willingly why mention that.
- 4,781
- 7,395
You have the statement- Enma sucking Zoro's haki directly drains his life instead of just Haki. You could make a case for that being life force manip.
But Rayleigh's statement of it being "spiritual" and the fact that characters can use their haki even when their souls are in other beings gives support to it potential being soul manip resistance as well. Wouldn't Law have just switched Kaido and BM's personalities if it was that easy?
- 21,468
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #91
wrong scan
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
already fixed
- 18,728
- 13,753
Yee, still through battle experience
- 21,468
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #94
Replaced MF Luffy with Aisa and changed his clip with hers
- 31,209
- 27,406
It doesn't look the same to me.
If Big Mom could just remotely drain people's Haki, why has she never done this any other time?
And Luffy being unable to walk could be put down to Gear 4 being exhausting / Sanji wanted to make sure Luffy got out of there.
He was just commenting out loud on what was happening to him. Him doing it willingly doesn't mean he enjoys the effects of it.
I never said he hit his limit.
- 21,468
- 30,790
- Thread starter
- #96
Bad argument.
Not using it in other instances is not a debunk.
He threw a single punch and was out of commission and couldn't walk
After Katakuri beat his ass in Bounceman, he ran out and he could still run around
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Then I'll point out the similarities:
- Is a wavy aura effect with twirls in it.
- is slightly transparent.
Could ask the same question about her never using haoshoku coating against Kid and Law, regardless that doesn't stop her from being able to use it.
Maybe he doesn't enjoy the effects of it, regardless the actual instances of him leaving Gear Fourth willingly don't show him in a powerless state like you're claiming happens.
You said this:
Last edited:
- 4,781
- 7,395
Author statement about Luffy vs Doffy is that Luffy CAN walk and act just fine after G4's drain, and only let people in Dressrosa carry him because he trusts them. This is also shown when he runs out of G4 based on the time limit and not a outside source drain vs Katakuri, and continues running around and fighting. Even uses G3 vs Perospero seconds after.
In here this was a far worse situation and Luffy didn't run out of it, he got forcibly put out of it.
- 31,209
- 27,406
It does raise a question on inconsistency.
Big Mom has to use Soul Pocus to drain other people's souls and it doesn't work on those who don't fear her.
But apparently she can just drain Luffy's soul fine without it?
I meant I never said he hit his limit fighting Big Mom.
Those other times are the souls emerging from people's body and her grabbing it. Here, her hand gets that smoky haze over it even before Luffy is shown untransforming.
That's a 100% less ambiguous action than what happened between her and Luffy though.
That doesn't mean his Haki was drained from him by some technique that is never explained.
If we get more information then fine, but for now it is too speculative.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
I'm not claiming she's done it at other times, only that the raw effects match the other times soul powers were used allowing us to say it's her soul fruit being used.
You asked why she didn't use it again, not about what she's actually doing being ambiguous.
- 18,728
- 13,753
Big moms soul manipulation isn't transparent
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
It is, the scan you sent above even shows it being slightly transparent.
- 18,728
- 13,753
Yee kinda... But they look completely different
https://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_617f9817c8904/6ca326d7df2683d49ad6ba8ecf5118d2/036.jpghttps://****************/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_617f9817c8904/45199a3fa6f28b71af90d2a2b414b879/0035.jpg
There definitely isn't enough proof of haki being soul
- 4,781
- 7,395
Why is the argument even whether or not she can do it without soul Pocus?
The correlation between her draining Luffy through Haki and Enma draining Zoro in the exact same way shouldn't be ignored. Luffy says he's drained and is unable to do anything for multiple pages, which shouldn't be the case when he willingly taps out of G4.
Both cases of Enma and BM draining the user's haki come with the wavy smoke-like haze and the user actively commenting about being DRAINED. It doesn't have to be soul manip, but the evidence for it draining the user's life is there.
The correlation between her draining Luffy through Haki and Enma draining Zoro in the exact same way shouldn't be ignored. Luffy says he's drained and is unable to do anything for multiple pages, which shouldn't be the case when he willingly taps out of G4.
Both cases of Enma and BM draining the user's haki come with the wavy smoke-like haze and the user actively commenting about being DRAINED. It doesn't have to be soul manip, but the evidence for it draining the user's life is there.
- 18,728
- 13,753
We still don't know whats actually happening, we need more confirmation
- 31,209
- 27,406
I agree.
Let's leave it off for now. It's not like it majorly detracts from the Haki page.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
I disagree, there's enough as I've posted above.
- 4,781
- 7,395
So we'll just ignore the fact that, on paper, Enma was draining Zoro's Life and not just his haki? There's clear resistance to it because Zoro pre-raid got his arm squeezed like a toothpaste tube from the drain, while Zoro vs King shows him lasting far longer with the same drain.
We don't know if it's Soul manip resistance- that's fine.
But we KNOW it's Life Force manip THROUGH energy absorption. It's literally flat out SAID that it is.
- 31,209
- 27,406
Well, I'm currently unconvinced. The visual evidence you've provided doesn't line up with other usages of her soul power.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
It does and regardless of what your personal opinion is on them being similar it doesn't change the fact that she absorbed his haki.
- 31,209
- 27,406
Luffy doesn't actually make a comment on his Haki being absorbed. He says the "power is draining" from him, which looks to me to be the same as just the air being released from him as was the case in the Kaido fight too.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
He says his power is draining after Big Mom did the thing with her hand which looks like her soul powers.
it looking similar to what happened against Kaido doesn't really matter as that's what happens when he runs out of haki, although as it was mentioned above despite being similar this air/haki is being released from all over his body unlike against Kaido.
But regardless what happens against Kaido and other opponents only occurs when Luffy has reached the limit of his gear fourth, which didn't happen here. And we already covered why it's not an effect on him deactivating it at will.
- 18,728
- 13,753
Not ignore... Wait until further confirmation, emin is saying it's soul manipulation and you are saying something completely different. Bro
- 18,728
- 13,753
Ok then... Explain how big mom could steal luffy's haki when he isn't afraid, explain how haki is someone's soul when no translation correlates to it
- The term "Haki" is a word that has multiple meanings when translated into English. It can mean "ambition", "will power", "drive", "spirit", "vigor" and "aspiration" to name a few. The term itself, however, literally translates to "Supreme Qi".
- 2,344
- 1,157
the closest thing would be chi on what haki is. spirit is, in a way, another definition of soul but sometimes it means a diffferent thing.
- 18,728
- 13,753
Yee, haki follows the concept of Qi (chi) which has nothing to do with manipulating your soul.
- 4,781
- 7,395
Curiously enough, Tenguyama also says this:
"Ryuo" is literally just wano's name for Busoshoku Haki.
Busoshoku haki is what's drained when Enma saps the user's life. Another DIRECT correlation between Haki drain having an effect on the user's life.
There isn't one single instant where BUSOSHOKU HAKI looked like THIS:
with the aura around it and whatnot.
Not naturally at least. The only times we see it like that is when Enma's draining Zoro's life force. And coincidentally when Luffy says his power's drained. Both instances where they both actively got drained via Busoshoku related means.
Luffy saying "I'm running out of POWER" is more in character for him than saying "She drained my LIFE", both because the contact didn't last for long, and because Luffy isn't the type that'd even notice what's related to his soul and what isn't.
Zoro literally says the sword will drain his life, and Tenguyama says Enma drains Ryuo/Busoshoku and turns the user to a husk. A thing which draining HAKI ONLY does not do, because Luffy runs his Busoshoku to the ground with G4 and he never becomes A HUSK even though he runs out ENTIRELY and can't even use it for defense. It shows that running out of haki naturally vs Your haki somehow getting drained out of you is the difference between it effect your actual life force and not.
Do we have any other instance where Luffy falls out of G4 and says "The power is DRAINING"?
"Ryuo" is literally just wano's name for Busoshoku Haki.
Busoshoku haki is what's drained when Enma saps the user's life. Another DIRECT correlation between Haki drain having an effect on the user's life.
There isn't one single instant where BUSOSHOKU HAKI looked like THIS:
Not naturally at least. The only times we see it like that is when Enma's draining Zoro's life force. And coincidentally when Luffy says his power's drained. Both instances where they both actively got drained via Busoshoku related means.
Luffy saying "I'm running out of POWER" is more in character for him than saying "She drained my LIFE", both because the contact didn't last for long, and because Luffy isn't the type that'd even notice what's related to his soul and what isn't.
Zoro literally says the sword will drain his life, and Tenguyama says Enma drains Ryuo/Busoshoku and turns the user to a husk. A thing which draining HAKI ONLY does not do, because Luffy runs his Busoshoku to the ground with G4 and he never becomes A HUSK even though he runs out ENTIRELY and can't even use it for defense. It shows that running out of haki naturally vs Your haki somehow getting drained out of you is the difference between it effect your actual life force and not.
Do we have any other instance where Luffy falls out of G4 and says "The power is DRAINING"?
- 4,781
- 7,395
- Status
Similar threads
