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Since the page is unlocked I'll add the things that has been accepted already (but I'll change some words to fit better).
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One Piece - Busoshoku Haki edit (Chapter 937)
- Thread starter CinCameron20
- Start date
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- #122
I have not reviewed the abilities page for like 5 months. Sorry :3Calaca Vs said:
@Fix - Busoshoku Koka hardens the actual body (nothing implies it to be armor above the skin. Someone like Sanji has never used Koka but apparently put up a haki wall to block Judge's blade [hence the comment made immediately after the attack], and Oda confirmed Sanji to be the least competent with Armament and the most competent with Kenbunshoku as of Fishman Island, but i can not remember the actual comment.)
@Fix and Damage - Perhaps note that it exclusively hardens their body, and doesn't affect mass for now?
@Kobster - Should also note Koka increasing both offense and defense drastically (also that someone using a bladed weapon would be more easily capable of cutting denser material such as steel)
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Same thing applied the other way. Koka is the most useful choice against cutting/piercing damage.
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> Busoshoku Koka hardens the actual body (nothing implies it to be armor above the skin.
Wouldn't applying a layer of armor above your skin harden your body?
Wouldn't applying a layer of armor above your skin harden your body?
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@Cin & @Damage I'll let you guys hash that out. If its described as "Invisible armor above the skin" I think density is out. If it is described as "hardening the body" then I could maybe see density appplied.
Honestly I feel like Stats Amplification is the best answer right now. That way they get the more or less the same benefit of "density" without going through the loops of applying physics (Mass and stuff).
Again though I'll leave it to you guys to supply the scans/facts of how its actually described.
Honestly I feel like Stats Amplification is the best answer right now. That way they get the more or less the same benefit of "density" without going through the loops of applying physics (Mass and stuff).
Again though I'll leave it to you guys to supply the scans/facts of how its actually described.
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I don't know exact details, or if there is any statement on the matter. All that we know is that "Koka" directly translates to "Hardening" or "Curing" (The latter is definitely not the case, as it makes literally no sense). If we take that, that means Koka increases the hardness/density of the user/object. And all we know is that Luffy can make his skin harder than iron/steel, and that Zoro can effortlessly cut other swords and similarly dense material.Damage3245 said:
After all, Koka was only ever revealed and discussed ever since Luffy first used the ability on Fishman Island.
But since density increases mass, we should probably stick to Statistics Amping, but note that it hardens the user's body, clothing, and even weapons.
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Curing like curing leather?
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@Dragon - Actually, yeah... one of the definitions for "Curing" states: harden (rubber, plastic, concrete, etc.) after manufacture by a chemical process such as vulcanization. So that would actually work in any case. Still doesn't imply a barrier for Koka, just that it hardens the user's body and weapons.
Anyways, it has been a couple days since the topic.
What is the consensus on "Power Nullification" or "Resistance" (or a more accurate term) for Busoshoku Haki users (Outside of less than adept users, of course)? We have still seen cases where Haki users have mitigated the effects of DF attacks, and other powers like Sanji's Diable Jambe that would normally bypass durability.
Anyways, it has been a couple days since the topic.
What is the consensus on "Power Nullification" or "Resistance" (or a more accurate term) for Busoshoku Haki users (Outside of less than adept users, of course)? We have still seen cases where Haki users have mitigated the effects of DF attacks, and other powers like Sanji's Diable Jambe that would normally bypass durability.
- Should we have any form of resistance or power null on the page?
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I don't think we've seen enough to justify it tbh.
Sanji's case is ambiguous, as is Aokiji"s.
Law's is weird. You'd expect him to actually comment that his spatial cutting can't get past Doffy's Haki yet he never does, and I don't think there's any way of telling if Law uses an actual spatial cut or a regular cut when he's attacking.
Sanji's case is ambiguous, as is Aokiji"s.
Law's is weird. You'd expect him to actually comment that his spatial cutting can't get past Doffy's Haki yet he never does, and I don't think there's any way of telling if Law uses an actual spatial cut or a regular cut when he's attacking.
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>>We have still seen cases where Haki users have mitigated the effects of DF attacks, and other powers like Sanji's Diable Jambe that would normally bypass durability.
As I explained before in order to give power null-resistance we first have to establish the power exists. In this case dur negation has not been proven. Fire and Ice attks are extremely common across these verses and have been established as forms of energy which can be calculated . If a character manages to tank it then they have comparable energy. If they fail to tank it then they do not have comparable energy. Its really straight forward AP scaling.
Furthermore Haki exists within literally every living creature in OP and the majority of relevant characters Post-TS have some mastery over it. Applying power null-resistance would have to be applied across the board. That means that it wouldn't be helpful in determining within verse tiers making it pointless. Otherwise it would also give OP an unfair advantage in cross-over battles.and turn the community against us like Bleach's reiatsu crush.
Then there's the matter of Teach's fruit being being borderline useless which just doesn't add up with the story.
As I explained before in order to give power null-resistance we first have to establish the power exists. In this case dur negation has not been proven. Fire and Ice attks are extremely common across these verses and have been established as forms of energy which can be calculated . If a character manages to tank it then they have comparable energy. If they fail to tank it then they do not have comparable energy. Its really straight forward AP scaling.
Furthermore Haki exists within literally every living creature in OP and the majority of relevant characters Post-TS have some mastery over it. Applying power null-resistance would have to be applied across the board. That means that it wouldn't be helpful in determining within verse tiers making it pointless. Otherwise it would also give OP an unfair advantage in cross-over battles.and turn the community against us like Bleach's reiatsu crush.
Then there's the matter of Teach's fruit being being borderline useless which just doesn't add up with the story.
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Your point about vs matches doesn't matter in the discussion.
And we have been explaining you why some attacks ignore Durability, you just don't want to hear.
The only valid point is about Teach's fruit tho.
And we have been explaining you why some attacks ignore Durability, you just don't want to hear.
The only valid point is about Teach's fruit tho.
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@Fix
1) I already explained why Fire and Ice can perform and have dura negating properties, and will not do so again, as you've clearly ignored.
3) Blackbeard's fruit being useless isn't even factual. He has already displayed more abilities than simply taking the power of DF users away (Which Haki can't even do, mind you), and he can suck objects into his darkness, and who knows what else? It's probably what allowed him to devour a 2nd Devil Fruit in the first place, but that is pure speculation on my part.
1) I already explained why Fire and Ice can perform and have dura negating properties, and will not do so again, as you've clearly ignored.
- PS, Doflamingo and Whitebeard are the only characters seen to actually withstand the freezing attack from Aokiji (But Whitebeard's case was CLEARLY Aokiji putting a shell of ice over him, unlike Doflamingo), the rest were shattered or helpless and died.
3) Blackbeard's fruit being useless isn't even factual. He has already displayed more abilities than simply taking the power of DF users away (Which Haki can't even do, mind you), and he can suck objects into his darkness, and who knows what else? It's probably what allowed him to devour a 2nd Devil Fruit in the first place, but that is pure speculation on my part.
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1. A) You explained your thoughts on why you thik it does but never did you offer a feat.
Ex: Sanji was over powered by Luffy, who was no-sold by BM, but he managed to harm BM.
1. B) "The rest were shattered or helpless and died" You're framing the narrative incorrectly. The only character Kuzan has been able to do this to is Jozu. No one else, just Jozu. Statistically its more likely then not that a character can tank his ttacks then be one-shot by them, provided they are at least stronger than Jozu.
2. So are you saying "Power null" is a matter of Skill and has nothing to do with Power? I ask because you're examples were specific skills while before I was under the impression that a powerful haki was key.
3. Power null was the key there above all else. Nothing much more to say on that.
Ex: Sanji was over powered by Luffy, who was no-sold by BM, but he managed to harm BM.
1. B) "The rest were shattered or helpless and died" You're framing the narrative incorrectly. The only character Kuzan has been able to do this to is Jozu. No one else, just Jozu. Statistically its more likely then not that a character can tank his ttacks then be one-shot by them, provided they are at least stronger than Jozu.
2. So are you saying "Power null" is a matter of Skill and has nothing to do with Power? I ask because you're examples were specific skills while before I was under the impression that a powerful haki was key.
3. Power null was the key there above all else. Nothing much more to say on that.
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@Fix -
1. a) ? Again, freezing for example: Aokiji uses his powers to completely freeze Jozu, Robin, and Luffy, leaving them as brittle as glass due to how slow their molecules are moving, and also stopping their hearts due to the cold. Chopper had to basically "revive" both Luffy and Robin after thawing them and restart their flow of blood, otherwise they would have died from freezing by itself. Jozu is a case where small blunt force results in entire body parts falling off, like his arm.
2. Yes, powerful haki is key. And again, not everyone has all properties of Haki at their disposal. Kenbunshoku Haki for example: Luffy did NOT use future sight against Katakuri. He was using sensory abilities to feel Katakuri's intentions and reacted accordingly. Rayleigh even confirmed Luffy to be more attuned with feeling the presence of others as compared to anything else in regards to Kenbunshoku. It's very likely the same applied to Busoshoku.
3. That doesn't mean the ability only had those properties. We don't know the limitations until we see Blackbeard use the power again. We only saw him use it in very short engagements. You act like we only saw him use "power null" when he also used the darkness to absorb people and attacks. Ace's fire was burning BB, and BB used the darkness to pull the fire in, thus dousing himself of the flames.
1. a) ? Again, freezing for example: Aokiji uses his powers to completely freeze Jozu, Robin, and Luffy, leaving them as brittle as glass due to how slow their molecules are moving, and also stopping their hearts due to the cold. Chopper had to basically "revive" both Luffy and Robin after thawing them and restart their flow of blood, otherwise they would have died from freezing by itself. Jozu is a case where small blunt force results in entire body parts falling off, like his arm.
- I don't know how you don't understand how freezing negates durability. Yes, freezing requires energy, but the amount of energy required to do so is inconsequential as long as a bare minimum is met (reaching temperatures low enough to solidify blood and stick it together does not require a substantial amount of energy, and that is enough to kill anyone who can not resist the effects due to biology, heat manipulation, or otherwise). A 7-A character who can freeze blood will kill any 6-B durability tier character that is a mammal. Durability negation.
2. Yes, powerful haki is key. And again, not everyone has all properties of Haki at their disposal. Kenbunshoku Haki for example: Luffy did NOT use future sight against Katakuri. He was using sensory abilities to feel Katakuri's intentions and reacted accordingly. Rayleigh even confirmed Luffy to be more attuned with feeling the presence of others as compared to anything else in regards to Kenbunshoku. It's very likely the same applied to Busoshoku.
3. That doesn't mean the ability only had those properties. We don't know the limitations until we see Blackbeard use the power again. We only saw him use it in very short engagements. You act like we only saw him use "power null" when he also used the darkness to absorb people and attacks. Ace's fire was burning BB, and BB used the darkness to pull the fire in, thus dousing himself of the flames.
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@Cin
1. A) Okay now we are on the right track just:
>>A 7-A character who can freeze blood will kill any 6-B durability tier character that is a mammal.
Now provide the characters this happened too.
B) In other words they did not die as was your original point (If you meant took a beating you should say as such). In any case those characters do not help your argument since Pre-TS Starwhats are in a different tier then they are now. Kuzan>Pre-TS Robin, Pre-TS others, Jozu, etc is within reason.
2. Why are you bringing up Observation Haki? It detracts from the discusion. Please answer if it Is power or technique/skill which gives power nullification in your opinion?
3. I've pretty much said what I have to say on that. BB being able to negate Ace and touch him was made out as a big deal. If BB could just do that with Haki, or if his haki is so weak (Unskilled?) he cannnot well . . . I don't know what to make of that. . . .
1. A) Okay now we are on the right track just:
>>A 7-A character who can freeze blood will kill any 6-B durability tier character that is a mammal.
Now provide the characters this happened too.
B) In other words they did not die as was your original point (If you meant took a beating you should say as such). In any case those characters do not help your argument since Pre-TS Starwhats are in a different tier then they are now. Kuzan>Pre-TS Robin, Pre-TS others, Jozu, etc is within reason.
2. Why are you bringing up Observation Haki? It detracts from the discusion. Please answer if it Is power or technique/skill which gives power nullification in your opinion?
3. I've pretty much said what I have to say on that. BB being able to negate Ace and touch him was made out as a big deal. If BB could just do that with Haki, or if his haki is so weak (Unskilled?) he cannnot well . . . I don't know what to make of that. . . .
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@Fix -
1) a) I'm just using an example for a Versus Matchup. Someone like Rukia (She's confirmed to use Absolute Zero anyways, so > Aokiji confirmation-wise for freezing) would be able to beat someone without any resistance to cold despite them being 3 tiers higher (or hundreds to thousands of times stronger/more durable).
b) I'm just using those three as an example because we never see what happened to anyone else frozen. Those 3 would have died.
2) I'm bringing it up because it is relevant. Maybe when this arc delves into Busoshoku Haki more, it will make sense. Can't provide an answer to that. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone would have access, let alone have the skill/power to demonstrate such an ability.
3) It was just one power at his disposal. And it disabled the DF powers completely--defense and offense entirely. Luffy and Ace were no longer their respective elements, and they couldn't even use their attacks while they were grabbed. Not even a Haki user has displayed something like that.
1) a) I'm just using an example for a Versus Matchup. Someone like Rukia (She's confirmed to use Absolute Zero anyways, so > Aokiji confirmation-wise for freezing) would be able to beat someone without any resistance to cold despite them being 3 tiers higher (or hundreds to thousands of times stronger/more durable).
b) I'm just using those three as an example because we never see what happened to anyone else frozen. Those 3 would have died.
2) I'm bringing it up because it is relevant. Maybe when this arc delves into Busoshoku Haki more, it will make sense. Can't provide an answer to that. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone would have access, let alone have the skill/power to demonstrate such an ability.
3) It was just one power at his disposal. And it disabled the DF powers completely--defense and offense entirely. Luffy and Ace were no longer their respective elements, and they couldn't even use their attacks while they were grabbed. Not even a Haki user has displayed something like that.
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1)a) Rukia is a good example of how this is not dur negation actually. Her powers like Toshiro's are dependant on the difference in power between them and their target.
Rukia's Shikia only dealt mior freezing to As Nodt which he then escaped of his own power. Her bankai power-up gave her enough juice to freeze an even stronger version of As to the bone and break him apart. The situation mirrors how a powerful character (Duffy) can tank and break out while a weaker character (Jozu) gets one-shot to the core and breaks.
There are too many examples of Toshiro's powers acting the same for me to even count right now let alone provide links for but suffice to say its the same deal.
B) I do not feel like arguing semantics or hypotheticals. It detracts from active discusion. bottom line is
You: The rest were shattered, made helpless, and died
You: they would have died
None of them are in a higher tier than Kuzan anyway so I prefer to move on.
2. So You cannot provide an answer as to what is nesacary for it to work and you do not think everyone should have this, but some should? I think maybe you're right in that we need Oda to delve deeper into Haki before we get answers, thus should hold off making changes until we do.
3. So you don't think it is possible if given enough difference in power (Skill?) that someone cannegate it completely? Likewise would someone be able to resist the Yami Yami if they were powerful/skilled enough?
Rukia's Shikia only dealt mior freezing to As Nodt which he then escaped of his own power. Her bankai power-up gave her enough juice to freeze an even stronger version of As to the bone and break him apart. The situation mirrors how a powerful character (Duffy) can tank and break out while a weaker character (Jozu) gets one-shot to the core and breaks.
There are too many examples of Toshiro's powers acting the same for me to even count right now let alone provide links for but suffice to say its the same deal.
B) I do not feel like arguing semantics or hypotheticals. It detracts from active discusion. bottom line is
You: The rest were shattered, made helpless, and died
You: they would have died
None of them are in a higher tier than Kuzan anyway so I prefer to move on.
2. So You cannot provide an answer as to what is nesacary for it to work and you do not think everyone should have this, but some should? I think maybe you're right in that we need Oda to delve deeper into Haki before we get answers, thus should hold off making changes until we do.
3. So you don't think it is possible if given enough difference in power (Skill?) that someone cannegate it completely? Likewise would someone be able to resist the Yami Yami if they were powerful/skilled enough?
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I thought we already agreed that the Doffy / Aokiji scene is too ambiguous to properly use.
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K, due to Chapter 939 giving a name to the ability being "Goken", and that the ability is also related to the same type of technique Zoro uses to coat his blades, should that be mentioned on the page?
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It should.
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I think the attack reflection is more about invisible haki hitting the object thus changing his line of movement
I think is better if we listed that as energy projection
I think is better if we listed that as energy projection
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