One Piece - Busoshoku Haki edit (Chapter 937)

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin I am not confused. Re-read my post if you think that is the case. I am dissapointed that basic energy principles and basic scaling are being ignored in favour of hax excuses.

1. I already listed spatial attks as reasonable so I do not know why you felt the need to justify that one .

2. Freezing doesn't ignore durability. Char A still has to be powerful relative to Char B to Freeze them, just like a sword hit, punch, energy ball,etc. This is true in pretty much every shoenen/anime/etc out there.

3. Heat does not ignore durability. Heat is actually extremely basic unit of energy that can be measured into standard AP..

 

[Damage3245]

Worth noting that Doflamingo already has Resistance to Heat and Cold on his profile.

If somebody has sufficiently high durability, wouldn't they logically be able to tank Sanji's heat even if it did invade their body? Do you think Whitebeard or Kaido (without using Haki) would be scorched down to their bones if he took a kick from Pre-Timeskip Sanji?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - he has those because of his apparent feats with Sanji and Aokiji. That's up for discussion now.

Can't say for Kaidou in the slightest because we don't know his current powers and abilities without Haki, but Whitebeard, I'd actually say Sanji could scorch him (incoming hate). Not like it'd do Sanji any good since WB has taken hits from significantly more threatening attacks (Akainu, who melted straight through his torso and head). I don't think I'd have to explain how a fight w/ Sanji Pre-TS vs WB would go anyways <_<.

@Fix

1. Because you weren't suggesting otherwise.

2. Yes it does. While changing temperature would require x amount of energy, even a 6-C character (W/ freezing powers capable of reaching below -44C) can cause serious damage to a 6-A character made from flesh. It ignores durability as it can damage/kill via frost-bite, stopped blood-flow, inability to breathe, and freezing even lowers durability.

• So basically, yes, it is dura negating. Just less effective than Spacial cuts and specific types of beings are capable of avoiding being harmed by this. If something can exist and thrive in such low temperatures, then Aokiji would not be able to ignore their durability simply because his power is useless against them.

3. Same as with ice, just that now we're talking melting capabilities.

Yes, 2 and 3 require energy, but not significantly enough to overpower someone's base durability (unless they are resistant to heat/cold)

 

[The_Calaca]

Freezing the insides does ignore durability. The insides of a person has no defenses like the outsides does. The same apply to heat. If the effect goes inside the body then it ignores durability, because that's something the body isn't prepared for.

Being resistant to heat doesn't make you able to avoid getting your blood vaporized inside your veins. The same goes for the flesh melting from the insides.

@Damage we know that this verse has some rules regarding this kind of things. BoS Zoro could cut Whitebeard because the regular OP character's body doesn't have resistance nor follows our rules regarding Durability.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin:

You>> Because you weren't suggesting otherwise

Me >> I get it being used in some cases (Spacial attks for example . . .

What parrt of that confused you?

 

[Damage3245]

Although Diable Jambe can pass through flesh to an extent to burn users, I don't think we ever see it pass through armor, right? So might it not just be a case of Haki being the 'invisible armour' protecting Doflamingo from the heat? It's not exactly negating the power then, just blocking it like any shield or armour would do.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - You just omitted the rest of your statements to try and make it seem like I misread what you said? Wow.

You said it's being "used all the time" and for abilities that use any form of quantifiable energy.

But whatever, moving on.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - We don't see Sanji melting iron or steel, unless i'm mistaken (someone wearing Armor or using a weapon would effectively be capable of stopping Sanji's attacks, assuming they have comparable stats), but we don't even know what Haki is "made of" by a density standpoint.

And also, in the initial clash, Sanji's foot clearly hits Doflamingo's leg straight-up. Not like it hit a thin wall or anything. We see Doflamingo's pants directly struck by the blow, and both panels of the clash show Sanji's leg against Doflamingo's. They are definitely touching.

 

[Damage3245]

Is it possible Cin, that Doffy didn't negate Sanji's attack through Haki (since we don't have explicit visuals of Haki in that scene) and that he just tanked the attack?

I don't think we've ever seen Sanji use that attack on characters with significantly higher durability than his attacks before.

 

[CinCameron20]

I was only using Sanji as an example merely because he isn't a DF user. Doflamingo is not insanely stronger than either Law, and especially not Aokiji, but they are DF users and "Haki negating DF powers" would refute my point all together.

It is possible that Doflamingo tanked the attack, sure. Sanji doesn't exactly have the best heat-level feats anyways.

 

[The_Calaca]

The Tekkai is a durability amp and as such it's above Sanji's regular AP.

 

[Damage3245]

The Tekkai is a durability amp and as such it's above Sanji's regular AP.

It's above Sanji's regular AP, yeah, but Sanji's AP justification for Diable Jambe is that he two-shot Jabra.

 

[CinCameron20]

Well that description was already there before the thread came out to give Sanji Durability Negation, so naturally it should be removed, as it serves no purpose.

 

[The_Calaca]

The DJ bypassed the Tekkai right though the bones. I'll look at that description, because Sanji won going to the head unlike Thor when Jabra wasn't using Tekkai there.

 

[Damage3245]

I can understand Haki resisting some DF powers but Haki nullifying all abilities is something that I think needs a bit more evidence.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Besides the Doflamingo's statement with Vergo resisting Law's Fruit at one point in time, I can't recall anymore.

 

[Damage3245]

Besides the Doflamingo's statement with Vergo resisting Law's Fruit at one point in time, I can't recall anymore.

Vergo has never resisted it. Doffy just mistakenly boasted that even Law's severing power could do nothing against the strength of Vergo's Haki and we saw how that turned out.

 

[CinCameron20]

We do currently accept that Haki users negate elemental intangibility due to many statements vs Logia and Paramecia types, and Luffy's statement vs Katakuri being the thing to make that pass here.

Nico Robin was one character to note Haki's effectiveness against DF users (specifically during Luffy vs Caesar in their first fight, as Luffy was able to grab him and hit him). Other statements and sources are currently lost on me.

Doflamingo's statement is questionable. I'll look for it. It seems to carry some value. Doflamingo claims that Vergo's Haki would block Law's Power, and that Law would also be no match for Vergo in physical power. Clearly wrong on both accounts.

@Damage - Vergo did not resist it, but Doflamingo made it apparent that Haki has the capability to resist the Ope-Ope's effects. He has down extensive research on the power, so he knows most of its capabilities (even the most powerful ability to give eternal life/immortality). It's likely that Law simply had stronger Haki (This is unsupported, though, as , or Vergo's Haki simply wasn't strong enough to negate the power.

Also, Doflamingo blocked Law's Room attacks in both fights, so certainly Haki would negate the offensive abilities, not just strike a logia/paramecia.

 

[CinCameron20]

We do currently accept that Haki users negate elemental intangibility due to many statements vs Logia and Paramecia types, and Luffy's statement vs Katakuri being the thing to make that pass here.

Nico Robin was one character to note Haki's effectiveness against DF users (specifically during Luffy vs Caesar in their first fight, as Luffy was able to grab him and hit him). Other statements and sources are currently lost on me.

Doflamingo's statement is questionable. I'll look for it. It seems to carry some value. Doflamingo claims that Vergo's Haki would block Law's Power, and that Law would also be no match for Vergo in physical power. Clearly wrong on both accounts.

@Damage - Vergo did not resist it, but Doflamingo made it apparent that Haki has the capability to resist the Ope-Ope's effects. He has done extensive research on the power, so he knows most of its capabilities (even the most powerful ability to give eternal life/immortality). It's likely that Law simply had stronger Haki (This is unsupported though, as we don't see any visible implication of Haki being used by Law), or Vergo's Haki simply wasn't strong enough to negate the power.

Also, Doflamingo blocked Law's Room attacks in both fights, so certainly Haki would negate the offensive abilities, not just strike a logia/paramecia.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin Its against policy to quote walls of text. Nice try shifting the blame towards me though.

In any case I stand by what I said. So far you haven't actually proven Freezing etc negates durability. You've said it would without giving any examples.

On the other hand I could list multiple examples both in and out of One Peice where characters tank said ice but you'll just say those are resistant without ever having substained that freezing can bypass durability in the first place.

 

[CinCameron20]

I never quoted a big wall of text, lol. And you're the one trying to shift the blame. Calm down.

Uhm, I already explained how freezing ignores durability, but you wont listen. That's not my fault, you just haven't done even rudimentary research on the matter, or how lower temperatures affect flesh and objects.

Throwing ice at people isn't freezing them, btw. Also, different characters and verses have characters who take a longer period of time to completely freeze a target, or have an inconsequential level of freezing abilities to where it does not matter. Aokiji is neither of these, so he does not factor in. Nice attempt at changing the subject entirely.

Enough.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Freezing does indeed ignore durability, lowering someone to extreme temperatures tends to ignore durability, I.E freezing the blood in the body, slowing molecules, applying Frost bite and making the opponent brittle and such.

 

[Damage3245]

The duration that Doflamingo was frozen wasn't significant enough to cause any lasting harm as far as I can tell (even assuming Aokiji was going serious on him). Whitebeard was completely frozen as well (in even thicker ice) and he broke out without visible sign of injury.

Whether that is due to coating himself in Haki, or simply breaking out of the attack before it could harm him is ambiguous.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, Barrier Creation, Attack Reflection and likely Transmutation have been accepted for Armament Haki.

Animal Manipulation and Overwhelming Aura have been accepted for Conquerer's Haki.

Power Nullification is still up for debate.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine. I am also doubtful about power nullification. If any Haki user could do so, Blackbeard wouldn't have needed his devil fruit.

 

[VioIeLFC]

Nothing confirms Aokiji is stronger? Fighting Akainu for 10 days is confirmation that he is far stronger, doflamingo would struggle to fight Akainu for 10 minutes

 

[The_Calaca]

What he said is that we have no direct confirmation that they are stronger than Doffy.

Logically they are. But no we have Kaido one-shoting Luffy as the first feat we have about the difference between Admiral/Yonko with the rest of the verse, with someone as strong as Luffy after Katakuri's fight was one-shoted by a casual Kaido, while said Luffy is far superior to Doffy at this point.

Shirohige scales to Kaido, and the Admirals scales to Shirohige (lower but still scaling).

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>But no we have Kaido one-shoting Luffy as the first feat we have about the difference between Admiral/Yonko with the rest of the verse

I hate to beat a dead horse but since you keep bringing this up you force my hand:

No, technically this moment highlighted the difference between Kaido & everyone else. The caption on the page was even "This is the power of the strongest creature in the world!!" not "This is the power of a Yonko!!!".

Also MF WB scaling to his strongest version, let alone to Kaido is little more then a fan assumption with more discontinuity then proof.

Again, I hate citing this over and over again but since misinformation is continually repeated I don't have an option.

 

[The_Calaca]

This isn't the place to discuss such a thing, so I'll hold my arguments on that matter.

 

[VioIeLFC]

Direct confirmation as in Aokiji beating Doffy or a statement saying Aokiji is stronger? That doesn't matter at all lol, we don't need that. As you said yourself, the scaling clearly confirms Aokiji to be far superior. It doesn't have to be direct.

 

[CinCameron20]

@VioleLFC - I said nothing confirms Aokiji to be "far stronger" than Doflamingo. I agree fully Aokiji would certainly defeat Doflamingo, but it would not be a simple, nor easy task, but all you have brought to me is that "Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days"... That does not justify anything you have said because we don't know where Akainu is in comparison to Doflamingo in overall capabilities (outside of simple power-scaling of the verse, which is still vague to this day), not to mention Aokiji and Akainu have powers that are polar opposites and their strengths and weaknesses are most apparent against one another, so for them to be at a stand-still for an incredibly long time is no shocker.

TL;DR - Akainu vs Aokiji has nothing to do with supporting Aokiji > Doflamingo. Again, my opinion is that Aokiji > Doflamingo, but that has nothing to do with the facts.

This is not the thread to even discuss their scaling, but I guess it is necessary since it relates to Doflamingo almost completely resisting the effects of Aokiji's DF.

@Fix - This isn't even the thread to discuss that.

@Calaca - <_< Luffy had no implied development after Dressrosa with the sole exception of Kenbunshoku Haki vs Katakuri, and don't forget Luffy nearly lost to Doflamingo even after Law and many others provided assistance (though the latter was stated to have no affect in the end according to WoG). Doflamingo was temp incapacitating Luffy with singular attacks, and still tanked Gear 4th nearly as well as Katakuri despite Doflamingo suffering life-threatening injuries beforehand, and Katakuri only suffering a kick to the jaw from Base Luffy before Gear 4th pummeled him.

• I'm basically saying suggesting Luffy to be >> Doflamingo by that point is unsupported given the context. If anything, Doflamingo and Katakuri should have bested Luffy, but under the circumstances, they narrowly lost, and Doflamingo was still worse off before fighting Gear 4th (typical shounen stuff).

 

[The_Calaca]

You're right. Maybe far superior isn't the word at all. But I digress. Let's get back on topic, who's gonna add the new things?

 

[KobsterHope07]

So these are to be added; For Busoshoku

• Basic Forcefield Creation (for all Basic to intermediate Busoshoku users like Sanji): Users are able to cover segments of their body with "invisible armor" capable of withstanding incoming attacks that their bodies would normally be unable to block.)
• Limited Density Manipulation (Adept - Anyone with Busoshoku Koka): Allows users to increase the density of parts or the entirety of their bodies. Basically characters who uses "Color of Armaments: Hardening")
• Attack Reflection (Proficient): Users are capable of reflecting attacks that connect with their body back to their opponent, or in another direction entirely.This does have a certain limit, as Marigold's defense was overpowered and broken by Gear 2nd Luffy.
• True Forcefield Creation ((Advanced application for 3 Admirals, Rayleigh, and likely Sentomaru): Advanced users of Busoshoku Haki can create a barrier that can deflect and neutralize incoming attacks from a distance without needing to coat a medium in Haki. Physical attacks seem to be redirected back at an attacker.)
• Transmutation (Shusui "became" a Black Blade over the course of many battles, utilized by Ryuma. Dracule Mihawk is also an example with his Black Blade Yoru)

Conqueror Haki

• Overwhelming Aura: (Shanks's Conqueror Haki easily faint multiple WB's members and it also partially damage WB's ship. Luffy and Katakuri's Haki clash knock out everyone around them other to generate a powerful shockwave. The same happen during the fight between Luffy and Chinjao.)
• Animal Manipulation (Proficient): Proficient users like Luffy has been shown to use it to tame powerful and dangerous animals, allowing the user to pacify ferocious beasts like Motobaro, Surume and Ucy (and that sea bear), being able to command them in a very ruthless way (hanging around basically)

 

[Damage3245]

Busoshoku Koka doesn't increase the users density, does it? I thought it was just a visible layer of Haki armour that they put on top of their body / on top of their weapons?

 

[The_Calaca]

Koka apparently grants a defense strong enough to no sell piercing attacks. Normally that'd be a Durability feat, but given the rules of the verse that's probably the most accurate case.

Cin: Body Control (Adept - Anyone with Busoshoku Koka): Allows users to increase the density of parts or the entirety of their bodies.

Given that we have a Density Manipulation page we shouldn't add inaccurate powers.

 

[Damage3245]

Density Manipulation seems to be the wrong term. Increasing density does make one more durable but also makes one heavier.

Also Armament Haki does is increase the users defenses and can be used to enhance their offensive power.

 

[The_Calaca]

Increasing the weight for characters with such big LS is meaningless tbf.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Yeah I do not agree with density or body control. The latter is too broad and makes me think of Orochimaru, Alucard, Naraku, etc. I was okay with density but @Damage reminded me that they're not actually becoming more dense and that would include some physics irreglarities (weight).

 

[Dr.Fix]

Otherwise Kobster's list is good.