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One Piece - Busoshoku Haki edit (Chapter 937)

@Rei Rubro; I don't think Zoro necessarily used Haki to do that, he could have just blocked him with his swords at high speed.
 
I don't think it's impossible for Zoro to have Haki on that level, since that's his bread and butter. Although I'd prefer if you used the official scans just to make sure.
 
Here is the official scan for that page. No mention of a barrier.
 
Still too early overall tbh.

the first part seems fine but you have to specify who uses it. just giving barrier creation and attack reflection to any CoA haki user seems fallacious.....
 
I'm a little hesitant about aatack reflection isn't it possibly that Rayleigh just shoved a barrier at that elephant when it attacked him, or that it just simply hurt itself on the barrier?
 
For Buso Haki; isn't it possible for them to have Forcefield Creation in general since Buso has been stated to be like an invisible suit of armor that protect the user from damage. It is similar in concept to that of Aura from RWBY.
 
I also think that more adept users of Busoshoku have some form of Power Nullification, and I can prove this does not extend exclusively to Devil Fruit users. Will get to that in my list:

@Plum - They should have forcefield creation in general, as even basic users (Sanji) have done so without hardening their skin. But they have not shown capable of creating literal walls that are inches to feet away from their body (like Sentomaru, Rayleigh, or the Admirals).

Perhaps a small revamp on the Haki page is necessary (the parenthesis are just going to be notes for this thread):

  • Statistics Amplification (for all users to varying degrees): Basically what is already on the page, just separated from the whole "forcefield" description.
  • Basic Forcefield Creation (for all Low level to intermediate Busoshoku users like Sanji): Users are able to cover segments of their body with "invisible armor" capable of withstanding incoming attacks that their bodies would normally be unable to block.
  • Body Control (Adept - Anyone with Busoshoku Koka): Allows users to increase the density of parts or the entirety of their bodies.
    • This ability also can affect weapons and projectiles that the user has on them.
  • Basic Attack Reflection (Proficient): Users are capable of reflecting attacks that connect with their body back to their opponent, or in another direction entirely.
    • This does have a certain limit, as Marigold's defense was overpowered and broken by Gear 2nd Luffy.
  • Rudimentary Power Nullification (Up for discussion): Users are capable of canceling out the effects of some abilities and attacks with a more adept usage of the basic forcefield creation.
    • examples include Haki users who are capable of nullifying the effects of Devil Fruit Users or the elements (Doflamingo negating the effects from both Aokiji and Law, also nullifying the flames from Sanji's Diable Jambe).
    • Again, this also has a limit, as a user like Doflamingo was incapable of fully negating Aokiji's ice, and was left with a chill and some parts of his face frozen, and Law's blade still cutting through his hand while both were within Law's "Room".
  • True Forcefield Creation (Advanced application for 3 Admirals, Rayleigh, and likely Sentomaru): Advanced users of Busoshoku Haki can create a barrier that can deflect and neutralize incoming attacks from a distance without needing to coat a medium in Haki. Physical attacks seem to be redirected back at an attacker.
We may have to work on this, possibly separate Busoshoku and Kenbunshoku Haki abilities into separate tiers with abilities like "Telepathy" and "Precognition (Future Sight variant)" separated and depend on the user's showings, as I'm pretty sure Luffy vs Katakuri proves that Luffy is the former, Katakuri the latter.
 
Also, maybe not "Power Nullification"... I'm sure there's a more accurate ability to use here.

Sanji's Diable Jambe has ignored the durability and defenses of Tekkai in the past, so for Doflamingo's (clearly) uncoated leg to be affected, either he is nullifying the effects, or resists heat all together.

Same with Law's DF power and Aokiji's ice ignoring durability. Doflamingo had no issue clashing with Law throughout both of their fights despite the majority taking place within Law's "Room", and Aokiji freezing Jozu and other characters down to the bone while Doflamingo got away with less-than superficial injuries (especially if we're REALLY going to assume Aokiji >>> Jozu >> Doflamingo in stats).
 
>>especially if we're REALLY going to assume Aokiji >>> Jozu >> Doflamingo in stats

We're still downplaying Duffy??
 
  • examples include Haki users who are capable of nullifying the effects of Devil Fruit Users or the elements (Doflamingo negating the effects from both Aokiji and Law, also nullifying the flames from Sanji's Diable Jambe).
  • Again, this also has a limit, as a user like Doflamingo was incapable of fully negating Aokiji's ice, and was left with a chill and some parts of his face frozen, and Law's blade still cutting through his hand while both were within Law's "Room".
This might be a case of assumptions or theories coming into play too strongly.

Whether Doflamingo either:

1) Tanked the ice attack and broke out.

2) Negated the ice attack with Haki.

3) Broke out because Aokiji held back.

Is always going to be up for debate I feel because there is no strongly proving it either way. Any of the three options is possible.

So I don't think we can concretely say that Doflamingo used Haki to negate the effectiveness of Aokiji's attack.
 
@Fix Doffy is currently scaling to Mountain level while Jozu does to Large Mountain so... yeah, right now the stats says that Doffy is weaker. Whether or not it's a downplay, that's beyond me.

But this is besides the point.

>Body Control (Adept - Anyone with Busoshoku Koka): Allows users to increase the density of parts or the entirety of their bodies.

Since this is talking especifically about the density the power should be Limited Density Manipulation. It makes more sense when we add the weaponry part, since those aren't part of the body in most cases.

>Power Nullification

I don't remember Doffy negating Law's powers with Haki. This is a topic we have discussed before but IIRC no clear evidence was provided. I agree with Damage about Kuzan's part.

The rest seems okay to me.
 
Anyone else noticing a trend? In the previous arc, Luffy was improving his Kenbunshoku Haki to the point where he could predict the future (sort of), something Rayleigh told him about. Now he's trying to master his Busoshoku Haki to the point where he can do yet another thing Rayleigh showed him (and he's doing fairly well so far). I'm almost positive the next arc is gonna focus on developing his Haoshoku Haki.
 
To be honest it is more likely that Haki was retconned to be foreshadowed since the first chapter.

I don't think Oda has ever come out and said that intended for Haki to always be introduced since the first chapter.
 
I thought that Empathic Manipulation covered the knocking people out bit?
 
Damage3245 said:
I thought that Empathic Manipulation covered the knocking people out bit?
Click to expand...
Yes intimidate their opponent or inducing fear is Empathic Manipulation, but generate pressure/shockwaves or make people faint do not classify as a type of empathic based ability.
 
Damage3245 said:
I thought that Empathic Manipulation covered the knocking people out bit?
Click to expand...
You are correct, I made the thread a long time ago and Cin suggested iirc empathy manipulation over Aura being Explosive and Overwhelming.

I am fine with Conquerers haki staying this way tbh. It is not like we know alot about it anyway.
 
As Stefano pointed out, Empathic Manipulation doesn't cover the shockwaves. That's more an Aura application.

In this case, Empathic Manipulation is the effect, while the shockwaves are the "projectile".
 
Rei Rubro said:
Luffy showed many times controls animals with CoC, this should be a kind of willpower manipulation or animal manipulation for CoC users.
Click to expand...
Well Conqueror's Haki can be argue that its a type of Willpower Manipulation, since the ability itself is about exert your own willpower over others.
 
Rei Rubro said:
Luffy showed many times controls animals with CoC, this should be a kind of willpower manipulation or animal manipulation for CoC users.
Click to expand...
I agree, Proficient users like Luffy has been shown to use it to tame powerful and dangerous animals, allowing the user to pacify ferocious beasts such as the Kraken and the Killer Bull. It is a form of Animal Manipulation

Putting pressure on the surroundings, actually affecting other physical objects besides living beings perform by Shanks is not under the description of Empathetic Manipulation. It should definetely be that of Aura. It even said in the description - "Ability to have energy envelop the user. It can be used (consciously or subconsciously) for a variety of purposes (such as intimidatio)" And Haoshoku is all about that Intimidation.

So I believe that they should be added.
 
I definitely agree with this. Luffy tamed Motobaro, Surume and Ucy (and that sea bear), being able to command them in a very ruthless way (hanging around basically). So this is definitely animal manipulation.
 
Damage3245 said:
Whether Doflamingo either:

1) Tanked the ice attack and broke out.

2) Negated the ice attack with Haki.

3) Broke out because Aokiji held back.

Is always going to be up for debate I feel because there is no strongly proving it either way. Any of the three options is possible.

So I don't think we can concretely say that Doflamingo used Haki to negate the effectiveness of Aokiji's attack.
Click to expand...
Well, Aokiji is either way stronger than Doflamingo and Doflamingo used haki to circumvent the damage (hence only suffering less-than minor consequences whereas Robin, Luffy, and Jozu would have ALL died without outside assistance, and literally everyone else of any significance dying), or the gap between Doffy and Aokiji is "there" but not to a ridiculous degree (If you can't tell how much I'm suggesting Doffy to be > Jozu and only slightly < Aokiji in overall power even now).

But putting that aside (because I do think #3 is the most likely case):

In the case of Law, Vergo used Busoshoku Koka and was still unable to stop Law's power despite Law showing no indication of using Haki to cancel his out

  • Doflamingo has consistently blocked and deflected Room slashes through both of his fights with Law, and even caught his blade at one point.
Sanji (Although obviously FAR weaker than Doflamingo at this point, but he is NOT a DF user, so this is important) used Diable Jambe, which has previously negated the durability of characters, including Jabra, who stated himself to have used Tekkai, and it not working at all, the resulting damage reaching his bones.

  • Meanwhile, Doflamingo stood in a clash with Sanji for at least a short period, and was not burned, even after Sanji came back and attacked him again with more diable jambe kicks.
    • Luffy's Red-Hawk, on the other hand was very effective and worked as normally on Doflamingo as with anyone else, and Doflamingo was only injured by it due to abruptly being swapped into the attack while in a resting position.
It's possible that either Doflamingo was using some form of power nullifying ability w/ Haki, or he just outright resists the elements... for some reason.
 
@Fix - No, that's not even the argument going on.

Aokiji and Law's powers by nature ignore durability, but the powers are nullified by Haki as stated by multiple characters and a few sources. Doflamingo did this, and went to prove that it works on non-DF abilities like Diable Jambe, which previously burned straight into Jabra, who confirmed to be using Tekkai (claiming it to not work on that attack) and had little issue tanking Sanji's attacks before that.

I'm not saying Doflamingo has "Anti-Dura Negation" (Lol). He has a form of Power Nullification or Resistance. It's a matter of who's Haki is stronger as well. Doflamingo > Law, Doflamingo =/slightly < a lax Aokiji, Doflamingo >> Sanji.

@VioleLFC - "Aokiji is undoubtedly significantly stronger than doffy". While I accept Aokiji being stronger, nothing at all supports him being "undoubtedly significantly stronger" (Nothing even confirms Aokiji being stronger in general).

Doflamingo paused in Aokiji's presence and was given two options: "Get off of my friend, or suffer the consequences". Obviously an unexpected arrival of a big-gun like a former Admiral is going to throw anyone off, but Doflamingo took a moment to think, and still went for the kill. He chose to walk away only after Aokiji had frozen him. Doflamingo had more pressing matters to attend to, so why risk a defeat, or at least taking serious damage to try and kill Smoker and evade/fight Aokiji when he has to immediately deal with Luffy, Law, and rescue Caeser (literally the only thing keeping Kaidou's wrath away from him, and Law attempting to destroy the Smile factory on Dressrosa)???

Again, I totally agree Aokiji is outright the more powerful out of the two, but nothing actually confirms this, or at least nothing supports Aokiji having the ability to stomp him. That's like if I made a silly argument that Doflamingo is > Aokiji via A>B>C scaling with Jozu. "Doflamingo held Jozu in place, who couldn't do anything, but Jozu could hurt and fight with Aokiji for some time off-panel, therefore Doflamingo is stronger than Aokiji."
 
@Cin That pretty much just proves my point. Why should X (and Y and Z and half the alphabet) get durability negation just because they manage to injure someone? I get it being used in some cases (Spacial attks for example, or curses like Avada Kadava) but using it all the time and/or for attks that are easily quantified in energy is just borderline abusive.

Then when feats are brought up that prove its not dur negation (Not that it was proven in the first place (Depending on the situation)) then more hax is brought up to cover it up, and so fourth and so fourth (hence my knot analogy).

I guess I'd like to see the basic energy quantifying and scaling principles applied more often and hax excuses applied far less often then I see currently.
 
What Cin says is that Haki isn't anti-Dura Negation, but if your Haki is better than the Haki of the Dura Negation user (whether or not a DF user) then the power itself is ignored.

It doesn't ignore the effect only but the source and with it the effect.
 
@Fix - I don't understand why you are confused.

  • Law's attacks have Spacial manipulation, and anything within the room (that doesn't have properties that basically nullifies Devil Fruit Powers such as Sea-stone and powerful Haki, or some sort of higher dimensional being) will be separated from his sword slashes as long as they are within his space. Also, attacks that can injure characters by phasing through them (such as Gamma Knife going through Doflamingo's body without leaving exterior wounds) ignore durability. If Doflamingo didn't assume Law was dead, and got caught off guard, he would have had time to use his Haki and possibly avoid taking the hit all together.
  • Aokiji uses ice and freezing powers. In regards to opponents made of flesh, this ignores durability, especially to the extent in which Aokiji uses his powers. Freezing something to a low enough temperature that their blood flow stops and their molecules slow down drastically is obvious durability negation, but more limited, as this isn't anything compared to Spacial Cuts that Law is capable of employing.
  • Sanji uses fire, and he can generate heat strong enough to instantly scorch bones and melt flesh. Again, clear signs of Durability Negation against living beings.
Haki is stated to cancel out Devil Fruit Powers (same with Sea Stone), so they have properties where they can block out the effects of the Devil Fruit, but again, Doflamingo has shown being capable of stopping abilities like Sanji's, which isn't Devil Fruit related.

It's also the same for non-living beings (possibly machines) fighting against Aokiji and Sanji. They would not be nearly as affected by their attacks as a human would, but Law could still cut through them no differently.
 
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