One Piece: 2023 Mid-High Tier Redux

[Damage3245]

"Uncompressed" is the version when it's shot out
"Compression" is when he pushes his fist in his arm. The "uncompression" is when it's released

I see. Well, I was just using the term to describe something else.

But I don't think this would make Gear 4 Luffy's Kong Gun to be 7.4 Gigatons.

Cracker's Biscuit Shields are scaling to be >>> 1.85 Gigatons, and while Luffy's Kong Gun can break those shields, the 4x multiplier doesn't work for that.

 

[KingTempest]

I see. Well, I was just using the term to describe something else.

But I don't think this would make Gear 4 Luffy's Kong Gun to be 7.4 Gigatons.

Cracker's Biscuit Shields are scaling to be >>> 1.85 Gigatons, and while Luffy's Kong Gun can break those shields, the 4x multiplier doesn't work for that.

Cracker's Buscuit Shields are 1.85 GT in AP for overpowering and smothering a Hawk Gatling.
His 3 sword stab is comparable to that, since it can push him back more than that.
His pretzel roll is even more superior to that, since it even cut through his Haki and sent him flying.
Compressed Luffy prior to releasing his hand to do the Kong Gun is 1.85 Gigatons

 

[Damage3245]

Cracker's Buscuit Shields are 1.85 GT in AP for overpowering and smothering a Hawk Gatling.
His 3 sword stab is comparable to that, since it can push him back more than that.
His pretzel roll is even more superior to that, since it even cut through his Haki and sent him flying.
Compressed Luffy prior to releasing his hand to do the Kong Gun is 1.85 Gigatons

What makes you say that Compressed Luffy is 1.85 Gigatons? The scan posted up above is for the uncompressed Kong Gun clashing and overpowering Cracker's Biscuit Soldier's Pretzel Roll.

 

[KingTempest]

What makes you say that Compressed Luffy is 1.85 Gigatons? The scan posted up above is for the uncompressed Kong Gun clashing and overpowering Cracker's Biscuit Soldier's Pretzel Roll.

The compressed one before it shot out matched the 1.85 GT pretzel roll, then when it shot out it destroyed it, but before it shot out, it matched it

 

[Damage3245]

The compressed one before it shot out matched the 1.85 GT pretzel roll, then when it shot out it destroyed it, but before it shot out, it matched it

Mmm. I don't agree with that interpretation of it personally.

In the preceding manga panel we can see the sign of Luffy's arm decompressing before the panel where the sword-tip clashes with Luffy's fist:

And this is supported by the anime version of the same scene (Episode 899, 19:35) showing Luffy's arm extended and uncompressed before they clash:

I don't think it is supported based on both versions of the scene that Luffy's full Kong Gun is 4x Cracker's Pretzel Roll.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I think he's talking about these two pages

Compressed then uncompressed

 

[KingTempest]

Mmm. I don't agree with that interpretation of it personally.

In the preceding manga panel we can see the sign of Luffy's arm decompressing before the panel where the sword-tip clashes with Luffy's fist:

This isn't it decompressing, this is the weird movement from the weird positioning of the arm. It's still together

Luffy never does a Kong gun where he decompresses it before he makes contact, 90% of the time he makes contact then shoots

And this is supported by the anime version of the same scene (Episode 899, 19:35) showing Luffy's arm extended and uncompressed before they clash:

I don't think it is supported based on both versions of the scene that Luffy's full Kong Gun is 4x Cracker's Pretzel Roll.

Contradicted by the manga showing the shockwave after it shoots out

 

[Damage3245]

This isn't it decompressing, this is the weird movement from the weird positioning of the arm. It's still together

Luffy never does a Kong gun where he decompresses it before he makes contact, 90% of the time he makes contact then shoots

It looks like decompressing to me.

Contradicted by the manga showing the shockwave after it shoots out

The shockwave continues because it's all the very same scene and it's happening quickly. It's not an extended clash like the anime makes it out to be after all; Luffy's fist makes contact with Cracker's sword and punches straight through him.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The shockwave continues because it's all the very same scene and it's happening quickly. It's not an extended clash like the anime makes it out to be after all; Luffy's fist makes contact with Cracker's sword and punches straight through him.

There's a clash when compressed, you can see at the two bottom right to left panels

When luffy decompresses it, he one shots him

 

[Damage3245]

Bearing in mind as well that Luffy's compression punches are shown overpowering shields used by the other biscuit soldiers, but without completely destroying the soldiers on the other side of the shield.

I don't think the multiplier should be applied like this. That's my current position on it.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

There's a clash when compressed, you can see at the two bottom right to left panels

When luffy decompresses it, he one shots him

Pop off.

 

[Damage3245]

There's a clash when compressed, you can see at the two bottom right to left panels

You can see in that panel that Luffy's fist is not recessed into his arm.

Zoom in on Luffy's fist:

That is not a fist that has been compressed back into Luffy's arm. This is a clash that is taking place mid-decompression. And as Luffy's fist fully extends, he overpowers Cracker.

 

[Eseseso]

Damage makes some decent points, but staying neutral on this topic since the anime doesn't even show the sword clashing with G4 it just shows him destroying the shield.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage makes some decent points, but staying neutral on this topic since the anime doesn't even show the sword clashing with G4 it just shows him destroying the shield.

I think you're thinking of a different scene.

 

[KingTempest]

It looks like decompressing to me.

it isn't even in a straight line, that's clearly not decompression

The shockwave continues because it's all the very same scene and it's happening quickly. It's not an extended clash like the anime makes it out to be after all; Luffy's fist makes contact with Cracker's sword and punches straight through him.

Wrong, the shockwave wouldn't show its initial formation and its sfx from the shooting of the arm

It is an extended clash, the compressed arm and the sword stay there and match each other, then it decompresses and shoots it out

This isn't a case

Bearing in mind as well that Luffy's compression punches are shown overpowering shields used by the other biscuit soldiers, but without completely destroying the soldiers on the other side of the shield.

This has nothing to do with the initial feat, this would just be an "antifeat" on scaling above the biscuit soldiers

And because that's a completely different attack with not nearly enough charge up and they're constantly regenerating

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You can see in that panel that Luffy's fist is not recessed into his arm.

Zoom in on Luffy's fist:

That is not a fist that has been compressed back into Luffy's arm. This is a clash that is taking place mid-decompression. And as Luffy's fist fully extends, he overpowers Cracker.

Bottom right panel is a clash, bottom left is showing both shaking and making screeching noises from the clash, then luffy decompresses and one shots, sure it all happened fast but they still clashed in the beginning until it didn't when he uncompressed his punch

 

[Damage3245]

it isn't even in a straight line, that's clearly not decompression

Luffy's arm looks straight to me. It's just perspective of the panel that is making it hard to tell.

Wrong, the shockwave wouldn't show its initial formation and its sfx from the shooting of the arm

It is an extended clash, the compressed arm and the sword stay there and match each other, then it decompresses and shoots it out

This isn't a case

From what I can tell, Luffy's compressed arm isn't what is clashing with Cracker. If it is unclear in the original source, then we often look at what the anime version of the same scene shows and that supports my argument.

 

[KingTempest]

Luffy's arm looks straight to me. It's just perspective of the panel that is making it hard to tell.

What

From what I can tell, Luffy's compressed arm isn't what is clashing with Cracker. If it is unclear in the original source, then we often look at what the anime version of the same scene shows and that supports my argument.

First you say "look to the anime"
Then you say "the anime made this part wrong"
That whole scene doesn't look faithfully done

The anime stretched out the clash because there was a clash

The shockwave started in the next page because his arm expanded in the next page

It's not unclear, you just see it differently. Everything in the manga from the shockwave by his shoulder to the fake beam struggle shows that it was compressed and even, then uncompressed and overpowering

 

[Damage3245]

First you say "look to the anime"
Then you say "the anime made this part wrong"
That whole scene doesn't look faithfully done

The anime stretched out the clash because there was a clash

The shockwave started in the next page because his arm expanded in the next page

It's not unclear, you just see it differently. Everything in the manga from the shockwave by his hsoulder to the fake beat struggle shows that it was compressed and even, then uncompressed and overpowering

The part I think the anime got wrong is the extensions to the scene like the clash taking 5 or 10 seconds, and Luffy having to use the power of his legs to add extra force in.

But the anime can be used for the unaltered bits to provide a clearer look at what is happening.

Clearly we're just dealing with just two different interpretations of the same scene here. So can we drop this point for now and make sure we're settled on everything else in the scaling, to make sure we leave the contentious points for last?

 

[KingTempest]

Fine

 

[Damage3245]

Fine

Thanks. I've gone through majority of the calcs in the OP and they're fine so far. Going to take a short break for a while then finish going through them soon.

 

[Eseseso]

Clearly we're just dealing with just two different interpretations of the same scene here. So can we drop this point for now and make sure we're settled on everything else in the scaling, to make sure we leave the contentious points for last?

I'm down for this.

 

[That_moron2]

Noticed that although the meteor calculations were all approved only one has been added.

 

[KingTempest]

Noticed that although the meteor calculations were all approved only one has been added.

You've missed a lot of CRTs

Also we're only using 1

 

[That_moron2]

You've missed a lot of CRTs

Where the calcs rejected their?

Also we're only using 1

Cool.

 

[Damage3245]

I've left a comment on the Streusen calc.

EDIT: Starting to lose focus so will stop here for tonight. Will post back on the thread tomorrow.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm fine with the calcs as they are, so I'd like to tackle the remaining scaling point so we can get this CRT wrapped up:

@DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

Calling on other staff members to lend their perspective on a scaling point between Monkey D. Luffy and Charlotte Cracker as KingTempest and I currently have different interpretations on an interaction between them.

The important context is that in his Gear 4 state, Luffy has access to 'compression attacks' where he compresses his limbs back into his body like this, and Doflamingo's explanation is that the tensile force can increase the strength of Luffy's attacks several times, so it's currently accepted that there's:

1) Gear 4 Luffy's base level of strength
2) Gear 4 Luffy's compressed strength (which is a 4x multiplier over his base strength)

When it comes to the fight between Cracker and Luffy, we're currently in disagreement about whether or not the two of them clashes before the decompression of Luffy's attack or during it.

The clash between Cracker's Pretzel Roll attack and Luffy's Kong Gun takes place in Chapter 838 over these two pages here and here.

As we can see on the last panel of the first page, there is a moment where Cracker's sword and Luffy's fist are in contact with each other and clashing before Luffy's fist ultimately rips through both his sword and the biscuit soldier wielding it.

KT's argument is that while they were making contact, Luffy's attack had yet to decompress so it was a clash of Luffy's base level of strength against Cracker's sword, and then his attack decompressed and a 4x higher amount of power smashed through Cracker. (So since the Biscuit Soldier scales to 1.85 Gigatons, Gear 4 Luffy's base level of strength is 1.85 Gigatons and his compressed Kong Gun is therefore 7.4 Gigatons.

My issue though is that while I acknowledge the Kong Gun as being superior to Cracker as it ultimately broke through the biscuit soldier, I think the clash took place during the decompression of the attack.

My reasons for thinking this are two-fold:

1) In the manga panel where their two attacks make contact, we can see that Luffy's fist is not recessed into his arm.

Spoiler: The Panel:

I've added a highlighting arrow there to point it out and you can zoom in for clarity. If Luffy's arm were still compressed, then his fist would be surrounded by the rest of his arm. It is difficult to tell from the angle we're viewing it at, but Luffy's arm looks like it is extended straight in a punching motion to me. His arm isn't fully extended as it will be in the next page as he can still stretch it further to go through the Biscuit soldier, but this is not taking place before the attack decompresses.

2) In the anime adaptation linked and timestamped here, for Episode 799, we can see that when Luffy calls out his "Kong Gun" his arm is extended and decompressing before he clashes his fist against Cracker's sword. The anime is accepted as Secondary Canon for clearing up potentially difficult to interpret scenes from the manga so there is precedent for this.

To me, the anime version of the scene lines up with what I'm seeing in the original manga panel above. Luffy launches his 'Kong Gun' and his arm is already decompressing as he clashes against Cracker's Pretzel Roll. Cracker's sword holds up for a moment before Luffy's attack completely overpowers him.

So we should scale Gear 4 Luffy as being superior to Cracker's Biscuit Soldiers, but not 4x greater than them. I hope I've provided enough context and evidence for why I interpret the scene the way I do.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

My phone is about to die but I'm leaning towards agreeing with Damage's interpretation. Though I'll admit it's hard to determine given the images from the manga but if you apply the anime representation then it makes the attack decompressed as they clash, not after.

 

[Eminiteable]

Haven't payed much attention to the arguments so far so sorry if this was already covered, but don't we see the impact strike of Luffy's fist decompressing after it's broke through the biscuit soldier (Here), typically that is what his fist looks like when it has just decompressed (Here) which would indicate that the fist had just decompressed allowing it to break through the clash. To me the short clash with Cracker before the fist has decompressed is pretty similar to what happened with Doflamingo where he briefly blocked until he was sent flying after the fist had decompressed (Here)

 

[Damage3245]

Haven't payed much attention to the arguments so far so sorry if this was already covered, but don't we see the impact strike of Luffy's fist decompressing after it's broke through the biscuit soldier (Here), typically that is what his fist looks like when it has just decompressed (Here) which would indicate that the fist had just decompressed allowing it to break through the clash. To me the short clash with Cracker before the fist has decompressed is pretty similar to what happened with Doflamingo where he briefly blocked until he was sent flying after the fist had decompressed (Here)

That panel shows Luffy's fist fully extended, yeah. I mentioned that in my post and it doesn't go against my argument. What I said was that Luffy's fist is decompressing and his arm is extending when he clashes with Cracker, and his arm has fully extended once he has broken through the biscuit soldier.

 

[Eseseso]

Neutral on this.

 

[Eminiteable]

That panel shows Luffy's fist fully extended, yeah. I mentioned that in my post and it doesn't go against my argument. What I said was that Luffy's fist is decompressing and his arm is extending when he clashes with Cracker, and his arm has fully extended once he has broken through the biscuit soldier.

I understand that, but the point I'm making is when Luffy's fist decompresses it's shown to have an impact strike around his arm which would suggest the decompression happened after the clash. And from what I can see the only impact strike in the prior panel is from the two of them clashing.

 

[Damage3245]

I understand that, but the point I'm making is when Luffy's fist decompresses it's shown to have an impact strike around his arm which would suggest the decompression happened after the clash. And from what I can see the only impact strike in the prior panel is from the two of them clashing.

The same impact strike around his arm looks visible to me in this panel. Same shape as in the panel when his arm is fully extended, and it looks like it is drawn behind his fist which leads me to believe it is not from them clashing.

 

[Eminiteable]

and it looks like it is drawn behind his fist which leads me to believe it is not from them clashing.

I missed that, nvm then it seems like his fist had begun decompressing prior then.

 

[SnookB]

That doesn't look like the same style of impact to me. The ones Emin linked show the impact strike with a gap at the center and the fist through it.
The one Damage points out looks like the impact of a clash. See the fifth panel of the kong gun vs Doffy, where there's similiar effect between the fist and Doffy's arms.
We only see the decompression impact AFTER the soldier breaks, finally exploding around Luffy's arm rather than between his fist and the sword.

 

[Eminiteable]

G4th Luffy is > 4x stronger than his G2nd state, making him >1.37 Gigatons, so it's good support as well.

Gear 4th's scaling above gear 2nd was accepted for the hawk bazooka (Here) so it would scale >2.74 Gigatons.

 

[KingTempest]

That doesn't look like the same style of impact to me. The ones Emin linked show the impact strike with a gap at the center and the fist through it.
The one Damage points out looks like the impact of a clash. See the fifth panel of the kong gun vs Doffy, where there's similiar effect between the fist and Doffy's arms.
We only see the decompression impact AFTER the soldier breaks, finally exploding around Luffy's arm rather than between his fist and the sword.

Agreed, G4th’s uncompression shockwaves look more akin to sonic booms that G2nd makes when he punches, next page for example

This just look like an impact shockwave

 

[KingTempest]

Gear 4th's scaling above gear 2nd was accepted for the hawk bazooka (Here) so it would scale >2.74 Gigatons.

You mean for WCI?

 

[Damage3245]

Agreed, G4th’s uncompression shockwaves look more akin to sonic booms that G2nd makes when he punches, next page for example

This just look like an impact shockwave

I can see how it could be seen that way, but I think it's not drawn in the right place if that was what Oda intended. It looks like it drawn as being creating from Luffy's arm, not his fist.

 

[KingTempest]

You mean for WCI?

Nvm I remember, my bad