One Piece: Luffy's Gear Fourth Multiplier

[KingTempest]

Gear Fourth Multiplier​

Intro​

Currently, we allow Gear Fourth's multiplier as 3x his Base strength via this statement from Damage

• Okay, well, this page here is the current basis of "Luffy is using at least 3 times the power of his Gear 3 attacks". This is based around the interpretation that Doflamingo is talking about "Luffy's limit" as in the previous highest limit of his attacks which would be Gear 3. But I don't think that's what Doflamingo is actually saying. Luffy isn't raising his power to be several times higher than Gear 3. He's just doing the fist-compression thing to make his punch several times stronger than a normal punch. Hence why Doflamingo appears at first to be blocking Luffy just swinging his arm at him, and then gets sent flying. The tensile force is increasing the power of his Gear 4 state, not his Gear 3 state. The end result is an attack that is, of course, stronger than his Gear 3 hits, but I don't think it is as simple as a "Gear 3 AP x at least 3 = Gear 4 AP".

While it's not flawed, it could be interpreted much differently than above. I'll try to put my input to see what can be changed.

Limit Statement​

Doflamingo says that Luffy's tensile force to raise its power several times beyond its limit.

It's unknown if the limit reached out to Gear Third or base, since the initial punch is similar to a base punch in design, but I beg to differ.

In Databook Yellow, Gear Third was canonically stated to be Luffy's limit (Scan, translation). Ignoring "Luffy's limit" to say that the punch is multiplying something else is ignoring the statement of Luffy's limit being Gear Third.

Feats of Gear Fourth's Regular Punches Being >3x Gear Third​

Luffy's feats against Doflamingo and Cracker show that Luffy's hits before they were multiplied were already superior than Gear Third.

Doflamingo​

An elephant gun from Luffy didn't even phase Doflamingo. Doflamingo didn't even need to use Busoshoku: Koka, and the strings or Doffy weren't even phased.

A punch from Luffy without the punch expanding already shook Doflamingo and overpowered him. Same with his Rhino Schneider. His python attack, which isn't affected by the tensile force was already hurting Doflamingo, and him just transforming broke the same strings that blocked an elephant gun.

Luffy's regular attacks before being multiplied would already scale above his G3rd attacks, which makes it 3x Gear Third.

Cracker​

An elephant gun from Luffy didn't even phase a Cracker soldier before he used Busoshoku.

A kong gun matched a named Busoshoku: Koka attack from a Cracker soldier and was affecting the sword before the punch expanded.

​

Multiplier Being Amped Above 3x​

I've found the raw manga scan which says something different from Viz. Not surprised, Viz adds and subtracts a lot of words to their translations.

The kanji says manyfold (何倍も)) while several is 複数, which is nonexistent in the sentence. Many = more than several, which is usually taken as 3-9. It would be a minimum 10x multiplier on top of Gear Third. In the case where several is not 3-9, the minimum it'd be would probably be 4x, since there's no reason that "more than 2" just means 3.

In Conclusion​

Gear 4th will be a 4x minimum and a 10x maximum multiplier to Gear 3rd.

 

[joshpiece]

Interesting... I agree.

How would this effect the current ratings?

Edit: does the Wiki count gear 4th as a multiplier for speed as well?

 

[KingTempest]

Changed the OP to 4x instead of 5x for the lowball.

Interesting... I agree.

How would this effect the current ratings?

Luffy would be a higher degree of High 7-A

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, this seems mostly good

I do agree that the previous limit Doffy was referring to was Gear 3rd, it makes zero sense for him to be referring to only Base Form's limit, it's clear via feats and statements that Gear 4th>>>Gear 3rd

Now for what numerical value we should give to this multiplier, I have a good idea of what to do, we know that "Several Times" means more than 2x and is therefore lowballed at 3x, since manyfold literally means "Many Times", that would make it superior in numerical value than several and therefore would be greater than 3x

So Gear 4th should be a lowballed 4x Multiplier on top of Gear 3rd, that's what I believe

 

[KingTempest]

Now for what numerical value we should give to this value, I have a good idea of what to do, we know that "Several Times" means more than 2x and is therefore lowballed at 3x, since manyfold literally means "Many Times", that would make it superior in numerical value than several and therefore would be greater than 3x

So Gear 4th should be a lowballed 4x Multiplier on top of Gear 3rd, that's what I believe

Changed the OP to 4x instead of 5x for the lowball.

Thanks though Mitch

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I already 100% agree with this.. Would any of these even remotely get luffy to 6-C?

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy's Gear 4 punches should not be treated as supporting evidence that the multiplier is supposed to be applied to his Gear 3 AP.

Even if changing it to 4x instead of 3x is fine, I still don't think it should be applied to his Gear 3 for the same reason I argued for it to be removed in the first place.

It has to do the mechanics of the tensile strength he's using. That has nothing to do with Gear 3.

I do agree that the previous limit Doffy was referring to was Gear 3rd, it makes zero sense for him to be referring to only Base Form's limit, it's clear via feats and statements that Gear 4th>>>Gear 3rd

I think there's a misinterpretation here.

The multiplier is not Luffy activating Gear 4. The multiplier is him using tensile strength by compacting his arm to multiply his strike. So it is 3x or 4x his "base" Gear 4 self. Not his ordinary non-Gears base.

No offense to the OP, but I feel like the points in the OP are being delivered against a Strawman Argument instead of the actual interpretation I argued for.

 

[KingTempest]

Btw, the second portion of the OP is to show how Luffy's Gear Fourth punches before they're multiplied is already superior to his Gear Third

 

[Damage3245]

Btw, the second portion of the OP is to show how Luffy's Gear Fourth punches before they're multiplied is already superior to his Gear Third

Okay, I'll address those.

A punch from Luffy without the punch expanding already shook Doflamingo and overpowered him.

Doflamingo was weakened by Law, and he wasn't using his strings to defend himself. Spider's Web is a defensive technique; we can't compare him simply raising his arms to be comparable to that.

Same with his Rhino Schneider.

Rhino Schneider uses the same compression as the Kong Gun.

His python attack, which isn't affected by the tensile force was already hurting Doflamingo, and him just transforming broke the same strings that blocked an elephant gun.

Again though, Doflamingo isn't using a defensive technique here. Spider's Web could >>>> Doflamingo's face in terms of durability.

And I don't think we can say they were the exact same strings for Parasite and for Spider's Web. Spider's Web is much thicker, and Doflamingo's strings have already shown they can vary in durability.

An elephant gun from Luffy didn't even phase a Cracker soldier before he used Busoshoku.
A kong gun matched a named Busoshoku: Koka attack from a Cracker soldier and was affecting the sword before the punch expanded.

Luffy uses a Kong Gun here, which is the compression punch that uses tensile strength. It's not clear from that page since we don't see the wind-up, but the anime shot of that same scene shows the compression being used. This is not just as basic Gear 4 punch.


So while I have absolutely no problem with Luffy's compressed Gear 4 attacks being >>>> Gear 3, I don't think we can say that Luffy (without using the tensile strength) is superior to Gear 3 while in Gear 4. I don't think the multiplier should be being applied directly to Gear 3's values.

 

[Eminiteable]

So while I have absolutely no problem with Luffy's compressed Gear 4 attacks being >>>> Gear 3, I don't think we can say that Luffy (without using the tensile strength) is superior to Gear 3 while in Gear 4. I don't think the multiplier should be being applied directly to Gear 3's values.

Would Luffy's uncompressed Gear Fourth attacks being > Gear Second be ok though? Based off this statement "there's no weight behind them" in response to a direct Gear second hit.


At this point Doffy had taken the gamma knife and wasn't using a defensive technique (or Armament for that matter either) yet like KingTempest said:

A punch from Luffy without the punch expanding already shook Doflamingo and overpowered him.

 

[Damage3245]

Would Luffy's uncompressed Gear Fourth attacks being > Gear Second be ok though? Based off this statement "there's no weight behind them" in response to a direct Gear second hit.

That seems more reasonable to me than scaling them to Gear 3.

So Gear 4 Luffy's compressed punches/kicks would be at least 3x or 4x his Gear 2 AP. (Except for when there is a better value to scale them directly to)

 

[KingTempest]

Doflamingo was weakened by Law, and he wasn't using his strings to defend himself. Spider's Web is a defensive technique; we can't compare him simply raising his arms to be comparable to that.

We currently have Doflamingo's physicals superior to his strings, and his strings are being held by him. Pushing back Doffy's strings require pushing back Doffy.
If Luffy can push Doffy back on one occasion and he can't push him back on another, it means that he's superior in that instance.

Rhino Schneider uses the same compression as the Kong Gun.

And before it was shot out, Doffy was already pushed away.

Again though, Doflamingo isn't using a defensive technique here. Spider's Web could >>>> Doflamingo's face in terms of durability.

That'd need more feats and/or proof of otherwise.
Doflamingo's currently superior to his strings. Luffy can break his strings with regular attacks and not break his face.

And I don't think we can say they were the exact same strings for Parasite and for Spider's Web. Spider's Web is much thicker, and Doflamingo's strings have already shown they can vary in durability.

Fair.

Luffy uses a Kong Gun here, which is the compression punch that uses tensile strength.

It wasn't expanded at that point.

It's not clear from that page since we don't see the wind-up, but the anime shot of that same scene shows the compression being used. This is not just as basic Gear 4 punch.

And that's inconsistent with the manga since we see the mini shockwaves on Luffy's shoulder and elbow after he destroys the Cracker soldier, showing that he matched the soldier without the expansion.

 

[Damage3245]

We currently have Doflamingo's physicals superior to his strings, and his strings are being held by him. Pushing back Doffy's strings require pushing back Doffy.
If Luffy can push Doffy back on one occasion and he can't push him back on another, it means that he's superior in that instance.

Different strings. Pushing back Doflamingo =/= Pushing back Doflamingo while he's behind the Spider's Web.

And before it was shot out, Doffy was already pushed away.
That'd need more feats and/or proof of otherwise.
Doflamingo's currently superior to his strings. Luffy can break his strings with regular attacks and not break his face.

The only thing I have to say to that is that when Doflamingo had his string defenses up, he was fine to stand there. When he didn't, he opted to dodge out of the way of Luffy's Gear 3 attacks.

We have limited data to work with, but it seems to me on face value that Doflamingo's string defenses > Doflamingo himself.

It wasn't expanded at that point.
And that's inconsistent with the manga since we see the mini shockwaves on Luffy's shoulder and elbow after he destroys the Cracker soldier, showing that he matched the soldier without the expansion.

It's all in the same moment; we see the explosion around Luffy's arm as he says "Kong Gun" while he's clashing with Cracker. And the Kong Gun continues expanding, allowing him to overpower Cracker and destroy the biscuit soldier.

Notice that when he says "Gun!" here in his first usage, it is after the expansion has happened.


Anyway, I'm more fine with what Eminiteable has brought up as a suggestion.

 

[KingTempest]

Different strings. Pushing back Doflamingo =/= Pushing back Doflamingo while he's behind the Spider's Web.

Spider Web isn't a conscious thing pushing back against the elephant gun, Doffy's the one holding it. It's like trying to push a door with someone else on the other side doing it as well.

The only thing I have to say to that is that when Doflamingo had his string defenses up, he was fine to stand there. When he didn't, he opted to dodge out of the way of Luffy's Gear 3 attacks.

Nope, he took advantage of G3rd Luffy's slow speed and blitzed him while his arms were out.
Luffy used G3rd twice in the whole fight. The first time, it was blocked. The second time, it was dodged and taken advantage of.

We have limited data to work with, but it seems to me on face value that Doflamingo's string defenses > Doflamingo himself.

I'd say if Luffy can break through string but not through someone's face, the face's dura > the string's dura.

It's all in the same moment; we see the explosion around Luffy's arm as he says "Kong Gun" while he's clashing with Cracker. And the Kong Gun continues expanding, allowing him to overpower Cracker and destroy the biscuit soldier.

That's definitely not the same moment. There's a difference between a collision shockwave and a speed shockwave. We see the clouds around luffy's in the punch that I sent, showing that it's not the same moment.

Zoro said Shishi Sonson before he cut Daz Bones, Kizaru said Yata no Kagami before he fired out his light ray, and Law says Shambles before he teleports. Using the timing of them saying the techniques is wrong.

Anyway, I'm more fine with what Eminiteable has brought up as a suggestion.

I'll settle with that

 

[Eminiteable]

One question but wouldn't King Kong Gun's power be Gear Third * Tensile Force Multiplier since it's basically a normal Kong Gun but made bigger via the same method as gear third?

 

[Damage3245]

I'll settle with that

Okay, cool.

One question but wouldn't King Kong Gun's power be Gear Third * Tensile Force Multiplier since it's basically a normal Kong Gun but made bigger via the same method as gear third?

In theory, I could see that being valid.

 

[KingTempest]

One question but wouldn't King Kong Gun's power be Gear Third * Tensile Force Multiplier since it's basically a normal Kong Gun but made bigger via the same method as gear third?

Looks valid tbh

KG ≥ 4x G2nd?
KKG ≥ 4x G3rd?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree with applying the multiplier on top of Gear 2nd, I didn’t actually know what Damage meant about the Tensile Strength statement until he explained it, so I agree with

KG ≥ 4x G2nd
KKG ≥ 4x G3rd

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I agree with applying the multiplier on top of Gear 2nd, I didn’t actually know what Damage meant about the Tensile Strength statement until he explained it, so I agree with

KG ≥ 4x G2nd
KKG ≥ 4x G3rd

So will a CRT on the new scaling be made?

 

[KingTempest]

There's no new scaling. Nobody scales to this Luffy as of now

 

[StrawHatArslan]

There's no new scaling. Nobody scales to this Luffy as of now

I mean for luffy.

 

[KingTempest]

I mean for luffy.

A CRT is not required, all that needs to be done is to change the profile

 

[Eminiteable]

A CRT is not required, all that needs to be done is to change the profile

The One Piece page will need to be updated to explain the scaling.

 

[KingTempest]

The One Piece page will need to be updated to explain the scaling.

What needs to be revised?

 

[Eminiteable]

"The lowest High 7-A's like Dressrosa Arc Gear 4th Luffy are scaled to be 3x stronger than Fujitora's Calc (1.26 Gigatons)"

 

[KingTempest]

"The lowest High 7-A's like Dressrosa Arc Gear 4th Luffy are scaled to be 3x stronger than Fujitora's Calc (1.26 Gigatons)"

Oof, I'll handle that.

Does Luffy's profile really need to be changed? Should we specify the multiplier's on G2nd?

 

[Eminiteable]

Oof, I'll handle that.

Does Luffy's profile really need to be changed? Should we specify the multiplier's on G2nd?

Yeah we should specify the multiplier on gear second for G4 and the multiplier on gear third for KKG

 

[LordGinSama]

Looks good.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Oof, I'll handle that.

Does Luffy's profile really need to be changed? Should we specify the multiplier's on G2nd?

So what keys are changing? And to what?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, everything looks great. It makes a lot more sense now that Damage explained it, and I agree with Emin's suggestion about KK Gun as well.

 

[KingTempest]

So what keys are changing? And to what?

None

 

[KingTempest]

Changes have been applied. Closing.