On the Jeweled Scepter and the Power of the Stars.

[Unclechairman]

I have made this topic for a simple suggestion; upgrade the Jeweled Scepter (in game canon) to Universal+.

Before you laugh me out of the forums for daring to suggest the idea of a Universal Sonic character or thing aside from Solaris and Darkspine Sonic, allow me to present my points.

While the Jeweled Scepter is not Universal on it's own, it is the only thing capable of channeling what is known as the "Power of the Stars" through an altar below Southern Island seemingly at or close to the core of Blaze's world (considering all the magma); the "key" as it's known in legends. This "Power of the Stars" is what sustains the existence of parallel dimensions. It is the Power of the Stars that allows Sonic and Blaze's worlds to exist as such. Although not as noteworthy, it is also noted that the Power of the Stars apparently surpasses even the combined power of the Chaos and Sol Emeralds. Although Super Sonic and Burning Blaze were able to defeat it (with timely intervention from Marine), Sonic remarks that they would not be able to defeat it without workng together. To quote from the game itself:

Eggman Nega: Haa ha ha ha! Oh, you poor thing. Allow me to explain. This world and Dr. Eggman's world exist in separate dimensions. Each of us can think of the other as what is known as a "parallel universe." What makes this possible is this so-called "Power of the Stars."
Dr. Eggma: When Nega told me this, I practically jumped for joy! The only problem, though, was finding the key that would unlock this power.
Blaze: The Jeweled Scepter!
Dr. Eggma: Yes. And so we got a band of pirates together to go on a little search for it.
Blaze: And so that's why there were pirates all over the place!
Dr. Eggma: Once we had the key, we just needed to find out where the door it opened was.
Eggman Nega: And so, after a great deal of research, I discovered where the power lies: Right here, underneath this very island! Haa ha ha ha!
Dr. Eggma: Magnificent! The energy levels on my craft's readouts are through the roof! I never imagined that this sort of power was even possible! Even the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds can't compare to this! Mwa ha ha ha ha!
Super Sonic: Blaze! We can't beat them unless we work together!
Burning Blaze: You're right, Sonic. But... How are we supposed to fight them without getting in each other's way?
Super Sonic: Simple! We take turns!
Burning Blaze: Take turns? Aha, I get it! One of us goes on the offense, and the other handles support.
Super Sonic: Right! By doing that, only can we conserve our energy...
Burning Blaze: ...but whoever has the best moves for a situation can tag in!
Super Sonic: Yes! That'll allow us to get our power up to the absolute max!
So, given that the Power of the Stars separates and sustains the co-existence of at least two universes, I propose that the Jeweled Scepter with the Power of the Stars be upgraded to at least Universe level+, and consequently the Egg Wizard should anyone wish to add it to Dr, Eggman's profile as it uses the Power of the Stars. Whether or not this can be scaled to the Super characters is a topic for another time; let's focus on this for now.

 

[Davy0]

Since I know extensively about the verse, I'd say they are just by the fact that it holds at least two universes together and was stated to be more powerful than the Dual Emerald Sets. I am wondering however, if the Rival's series is canon, and if it isn't why isn't it?

 

[Unclechairman]

The Rivals series should be canon. Takashi Lizuka himself established it as the canon backstory for Silver and Eggman Nega in the same interview he established Rush as Blaze's canon backstory.

 

[Davy0]

Then I have some stuff to look through, more stuff I can scale from. (Rubs hands together.)

 

[Darkness552]

It seems reasonable since the Power of the Stars is what keeps two universes exisiting and if the Jewel Sceptor is able to control it then yea i agree with the upgrade

 

[Unclechairman]

Should I highlight this so more people will see it? I was thinking about highlighting it earlier, but given that I had just created the thread, people might accuse me of abusing my moderator powers to promote Sonic.

 

[Darkness552]

no i don't think you should highlight this thread unless it was a major change to one of the main characters like Sonic, and this is in regard to a weapon profile in what sega considers a side game (canon side game)

although you are allowed to ask other admins input on this

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This seems fully reasonable, as something that holds a universe together should be universal.

 

[Antvasima]

The questions are:

A: Does the Jewelled Scepter channel the entire power of the stars, or just a part of it, making it, as you mentioned in your first post, not Universal on its own?

B: Does "dimension" here mean an entire full-sized universe, or just a pocket realm, that may even be planet sized?

If regular game Sonic could beat it with some help, this seems to imply either of the two above options. (Alternately, it could be Plot Induced Stupidity, of course)

 

[Unclechairman]

I'm afraid there isn't enough information to answer the first question. The Scepter could be channeling a small portion of it, or it could be channeling most or all of it. The reason I said it's not Universal on it's own as because it merely acts as a "key" to using the Power of the Stars, and it must be brought to an altar below Southern Island to unlock the power. It cannot channel the power from anywhere or on it's own.

For the second question, Sonic's universe is based on our own, as the planet is even referred to as Earth, and in the comics (at least in Pre-Super Genesis Wave continuity), Mobius is established as a post-apocalyptic Earth. I seem to recall one of the general assumptions in this wiki when the size of a universe is not clearly established is that it's the same as our own. The only thing really up in the air is the size of Blaze's dimension. So far, all we've seen is an ocean dotted with islands of varying sizes. I'm quite confident that this is hardly all of Blaze's world (we don't even see her kingdom), but of her world, this is all we know. Still, that Sonic's universe should probably be the same size of our own, and that Blaze's is parallel to it, should make it fairly clear that the scope of the Power of the Stars is at least universe-sized. It doesn't make much sense for a cosmic power to only apply to two planets; it would mean that if the Power of the Stars disappeared or collapsed, there would just be a hole in reality where Sonic's planet used to be with everything around it intact.

As for the scaling issues, this is why I mentioned that whether or not this can be scaled to the Super forms is a whole different issue. You could just dimiss it as an outlier like with Solaris rather than assume that Super Sonic and Burning Blaze being able to beat it means it's not Universal. Admittedly, though, a part of the reason why I created this topic is that Davy0 had been practically begging for me to upgrade the Super forms (he also wanted the base forms upgraded, but I told him the Super forms would have to be upgraded first).

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Well, then the question is how much of the power that it channels. Maybe we could add a "Possibly Universe level+"? However, it still seems rather speculative. I am not sure.

 

[Davy0]

Wait, hold on. As soon as I saw my name in it. I giggled and came. It's not possibly. It's not speculatory. Maybe characters are stronger than Uncle is giving them credit for. Maybe they did beat Solaris, you're forgetting that a huge increase in their BASE stats would also give them an increase in their super states as well, since said stats on empower their own ability even more.

It was stated that it is capable of protecting both universes. So that's what it's capable of doing. It was stated as more powerful than the Dual Emeralds, and that's what it is. Maybe it was luck, maybe there were some underlying things, but so many coincidences, so many "outliers" can only lead to a single thing. It can't be an outlier anymore.

So before you place "Possibly", understand that it can't be a Possibly, it's already defined as strong enough to keep two Universes in check from foes that are capable of understanding said power, who have excellent knowledge over supernatural objects (these are two Eggman's for christ sakes, Dark Gaia, Chaos, the Wisps, Emerl, Black Doom, these guys have impeccable knowledge on Supernatural objects. So why should their words mean any less than they should.?

Blaze and Sonic defeated Egg Wizard, and that's all there is to it, it was in a combined effort. But Sonic in his base as proven his skill, and Blaze has proven her skill with being capable of matching him.

So what's the problem? And how do we make a solution.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait, hold on. As soon as I saw my name in it. I giggled and came.

As always Davy, your phrasing is god damn impeccable.

Anyway, I agree with you on the upgrade to Low 2-C. Not sure about the Super form thing, but as UC said, that's another topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Keep the vulgar terms out of this site please. You keep ignoring the rules over and over despite that we keep giving you warnings over and over again. Eventually we will be forced to block you for a long period of time, as we cannot keep giving you special treatment.

Anyway, has the Jeweled Scepter specifically been stated as capable of sustaining two universes, or was it the power of the stars? If it was the latter, we still don't seem to know if it channels the entirety of their power, unless there is more information that I have not been told.

 

[Davy0]

It wasn't a vulgar joke (don't need to lie) he saw it as a vulgar joke and commented. I didn't come "that" way, I came to look at the thread.

The name is just a name, it may just be considered a "cosmic force".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Relax, Ant. I doubt Davy was intentionally doing that. I was just pointing out that phrasing iiiiiisss...important.

 

[Davy0]

See what I mean. I wasn't trying to. Stop thinking I always have the worst of intentions, man.

 

[Antvasima]

All right then, but you do have a history of this kind of behaviour.

Anyway, about my question?

 

[Davy0]

Not of the sexual or toilet humor kind... Only the backlash kind. I'm "better" than that, sir.

It doesn't channel stars dude, it could be considered the Master Emerald of the Sol Universe its own way... Hold on.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/86856 - I placed this up for some feat with the Master Emerald.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but I don't see what your linked thread has to do with whether or not the Jewelled Scepter channels the entire power sustaining the universe?

 

[Davy0]

Universes.

 

[Darkness552]

Blaze's dimension is a universe because doesn't eggman nega refer to Sonic's world and Blaze's world as parallel universes

 

[Davy0]

I already knew that. Plus it's right there in the dialogue that Uncle showed. "parallel dimensions".

 

[Unclechairman]

As I said, no information was given that could answer whether or not the Scepter channels all or most of the Power of the Stars or just a small portion. It seems like a moot point, though, and the game just leaves us to assume the Doctors are channeling Universal power. Besides, even channeling an infintismally small portion of Universal or greater power would still net you power way above Planet level, so the argument about the Egg Wizard being barely above Planet level because Sonic and Blaze were able to defeat it doesn't hold much water.

As for your other question, Antvasima, it is the Power of the Stars that sustains parallel universes. The Jeweled Scepter merely acts as a "key" to unlocking and using said power. As for the Scepter's power on it's own, well, it is heavily implied that the Jeweled Scepter has influence over the geological activity of Blaze's planet, as when it was removed from it's resting place, earthquakes started periodically occurring, and Blaze outright states it (although she refers to it as a rumor).

[Marine's House. Everything shakes.]

Textbox: *rumbling*
Sonic: What's happening? Is this an earthquake?
Marine: Eeeeek! Oy, it's shakin'!
Sonic: Marine! Get under the desk!
Marine: I don't reckon, mate! I'm stickin' right 'ere!
[Scene fades to black and then fades back to normal. Everything slowly stops shaking.]

Tails: ...whew. I think it's stopped.
Sonic: Is everyone all right?
Blaze: I'm fine.
Marine: Y-y-yeah, she'll be apples... But blimey, that was a bit of a rough patch. I'm still shaking and jittering 'ere...
Tails: Are earthquakes a common thing in these parts?
Marine: Nah, mate, they're about as rare as hen's teeth.
Blaze: She's right. Earthquakes are far from a common occurrence.
Sonic: If that's the case, then I'm a bit worried.
Blaze: There are stories surrounding the Jeweled Scepter, you know...
Sonic: ?
Blaze: The Jeweled Scepter is said to hold power over the planet's geological activity, for one.
Tails: So, then, I mean... If the pirates have the scepter, that's causing an increase in volcanic activity?
Blaze: It may just be a coincidence. But the scepter cave was very deep underground. In fact, it was quite close to the planet's mantle.
Sonic: Right. So we should probably assume a worst-case scenario, then.
Blaze: And if we don't get the scepter back, who knows what'll happen.
Sonic: Then we've just got to do something about it, first!
Blaze: Yes, indeed.
Marine: Right-o, cobbers! Just leave it to me, yeah?
Blaze: How about you start with getting out from under the desk, Marine?
[Marine stands up.]

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Do you have further information about how the game inplies that the scepter has universal power? Because othervise, we cannot rationally automatically state that it has. It would seem too lenient and unfair.

 

[Davy0]

So two easily planet busters, have trouble, with a Planet controlling scepter that is highly implied to keep both universes a float. Even more, Ian Flynn (from the Archie Sonic Universe) even implies that what is said is the truth, thanks to how he portrays it as the reason the universe isn't affected by the universe. It's even stated that he has ties to Sega who tell him what he CAN and CANNOT do with certain objects and characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you provide references please? Also, what is canon to the comics should not automatically affect the games canon and vice versa.

 

[Davy0]

No, it's not. However, again, Ian gets his sources directly from SEGA. The creators of the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise. But whatever.

Anyway as I said. Eggman and Eggman Nega are two great sources to use. They are the foremost geniuses of these parallel worlds, and have vast knowledge on Supernatural beings. Remember Solaris? Eggman did. Remember Emerl? Eggman did. Remember Chaos and Dark Gaia? Eggman obviously did. He does his research and he doesn't need to exaggerate the power of his weapons. He may be a crazed scientist, but you can't discount what he says about the power of supernatural beings and objects.

 

[Antvasima]

So Eggman stated outright that the Jewelled Scepter possessed the entire power of the stars, and was capable of destroying two universes?

 

[Davy0]

The "Power of the Stars" is just a name. What they stated is right there, that it keeps the fabric of two universes together, parallel dimensions/universes as Sol is parallel to Chaos (Blaze's world is parallel to Sonic's respectively).

Dr. Eggma: Magnificent! The energy levels on my craft's readouts are through the roof! I never imagined that this sort of power was even possible! Even the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds can't compare to this! Mwa ha ha ha ha!

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I have understood that, but the central issue remains.

 

[Davy0]

OK. So here's the run down. The Jeweled Scepter is its own "power" meaning it controls the geographical make-up of Blaze's world. However, the power of the stars is a separate power. It has nothing to do with being "from" the stars. As that could only be a name, as there is no proof that states that it actually channels a stars power, only holding the fabric of the two universes. Eggman Nega even states that he did extensive research on the power of the stars, and again, these guys are thorough on their research, as Eggman shows you in multiple games. Nega is a counterpart of the Original Eggman, there's nothing to support that his line of logic is not as sound as the man he is a parallel copy of.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I have no problem with that, but the question is whether the Jewelled Scepter contains the entirety of that power, making it Low 2-C in scope?

 

[Davy0]

The Jeweled Scepter is capable of shifting the entire world, with just huge tremors happening over its removal and not use, so make that continent or multi-continent level if you want. However, the Power of the Stars is a separate entity, so just place it as "with the Power of the Stars" to make sure it's understood that the scepter itself isn't that power, but a key to unlock it.

Sound fair?

 

[Antvasima]

I dunno. As I said earlier, it depends on whether or not it actually possesses the full power of the stars? I don't think that I have received a satisfying answer on that point yet.

 

[Unclechairman]

The central issue is whether or not all or most of the power is being channeled or just a small portion, isn't it? Well, like I said, no information was given on this. I think we're just left to assume that enough of it is being channeled to translate into universal-level power, given that that seems to be what it was built up to be. Possibly complicating things is the fact that the Egg Wizard's final attack (which even Eggman dreaded using) was a ball of energy called a "Planet-Buster Laser", but we never saw what it could do since Marine interrupted it. Still, how much of the power the Jeweled Scepter was channeling seems like a nitpick, and it seems to follow from the question of how Super Sonic and Burning Blaze were able to defeat it when they only regularly display planet-level power. To which I reply that Solaris raised the same issues, and also, channeling even an incredibly tiny fraction of universal power would still net you power far above planet level. So either this is simply an outlier or Super Sonic and Burning Blaze really are far higher, but then that raises questions as to why Super Sonic struggled against planetary threats like Dark Gaia. Frankly, this inconsistency stems from the Chaos Emeralds (and their variants) being the series' general purpose plot device, and as such they have no set power level; the only thing one can go off of is most common showings, which can be subject to change as the series goes on.

 

[Davy0]

Now you know how I dislike the word "only" Uncle, man. You want me to go on a rant of all this "only Planet Level" stuff you're stating again, when you know darn well that they've shown more than just planet level power with the foes they've defeated. Fufufu.

 

[Antvasima]

@UncleChairman Okay. How about inserting a "Possibly Low 2-C" as a rating then, given that the issue of how much power it channels seems somewhat unclear?

@Davy Well, technically it is a very common fiction trope for the protagonists to defeat foes far above their weight class due to massove Plot Inflated Stupidity.

 

[Davy0]

It channels enough power to keep two dimensions stable. What could have been the problem was the lack of MASTERY the Egg-heads had with the power itself.

@ Ant - Yet we still give them those beautifully high stats for it, don't we?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, according to what UC explained earlier, this was never explicitly stated, but I am fine with "Possibly Low 2-C".