OG Dragon Ball 5-C Scaling to Roshi's Moon-Busting Feat Should be Removed

[TheGreatBanana]

King piccolo is verbatim stated to be stronger than Roshi, to the point roshi didn't attempt to fire a Kamehameha, and his only solution was to...yk, seal him. Meaning a max power Kamehameha would do Jack shit.
Also, the same Demon king piccolo who stated to be able to destroy the whole world.
So We have Roshi busting the moon.
Demon king piccolo being soo strong that roshi can't beat him at all, and he resorted to Sealing.
We have roshi verbatim stating that kikoho Is stronger than the Kamehameha.
We have Demon king stating that he can destroy the whole world.
And we have 23rd goku having specifically power that surpasses a Kamehameha that can shatter the whole moon [And piccolo wistanding etc.. etc..].
Yeah...denying Moon level is crazy.
The scaling meets every criteria that can be met.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Hard disagree for the reasons Dale and Net have mentioned. I think the OP is making way too many assumptions to go against blatant statements of characters being superior to Roshi, especially with the likes of King Piccolo, the 23rd Budokai cast, Goku and Piccolo.

I might give you 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan, but that’s it.

I could also make the argument that a lot of assumptions were made that just because characters are stated to surpass someone, that automatically means those characters surpass the strongest attacks. As I stated before, Did SSJ Vegeta surpass Cell when he unleashed a Final Flash against him and taking off half his body? Did SSJ Goku surpass Cell when he obliterated the top half of his body when he unleashed his Instant Kamehameha? Obviously not.

So in DB, being superior in general does not automatically mean having higher AP than a strongest, charged attack. Piccolo destroying the moon was a very casual attack that didn't drain him in comparison.

 

[Dalesean027]

Also again why are we so hung up on the fact that Roshi was in his MAX form when this was done. Piccolo Jr literally survived goku's very canonically moon busting Kamehameha and was still pushed somewhat by Krillin while being casual

Piccolo Daima was > Krillin and Kami (when he restored the moon) by all rights tien thinking he could take on a faster KP in Goku for reasons I already said above makes the Moon level pretty clear

 

[TheRustyOne]

It seems a little off to me that he had to power-up not in order to increase the power of his blast but to enlarge the area of effect?

And? Other Dragon Ball characters stronger power-up and don't cause massive AOE damage that matches their Tier.

Or what, is Vegito's Final Kamehameha not even Tier 6?

I don't think your line of reasoning here means anything.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

King piccolo is verbatim stated to be stronger than Roshi, to the point roshi didn't attempt to fire a Kamehameha, and his only solution was to...yk, seal him. Meaning a max power Kamehameha would do Jack shit.
Also, the same Demon king piccolo who stated to be able to destroy the whole world.
So We have Roshi busting the moon.
Demon king piccolo being soo strong that roshi can't beat him at all, and he resorted to Sealing.
We have roshi verbatim stating that kikoho Is stronger than the Kamehameha.
We have Demon king stating that he can destroy the whole world.
And we have 23rd goku having specifically power that surpasses a Kamehameha that can shatter the whole moon [And piccolo wistanding etc.. etc..].
Yeah...denying Moon level is crazy.
The scaling meets every criteria that can be met.

All the examples you gave are either hyperbole, explanations I already gave in the OP, and addressing inconsistencies with using DB guidebooks as justification.

 

[Damage3245]

And? Other Dragon Ball characters stronger power-up and don't cause massive AOE damage that matches their Tier.

Or what, is Vegito's Final Kamehameha not even Tier 6?

I don't think your line of reasoning here means anything.

I didn't say anything about Vegito or other characters. The argument I was bringing up was that if King Piccolo is casually Moon level, then destroying a city should've been a casual matter, but it looked like he had to visibly put effort into it. That was all. I didn't say that all DB characters are only as powerful as the biggest thing they've blown up.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

Also again why are we so hung up on the fact that Roshi was in his MAX form when this was done. Piccolo Jr literally survived goku's very canonically moon busting Kamehameha and was still pushed somewhat by Krillin while being casual

Piccolo Daima was > Krillin and Kami (when he restored the moon) by all rights tien thinking he could take on a faster KP in Goku for reasons I already said above makes the Moon level pretty clear

A big contention is DKP scaling as well

 

[TheGreatBanana]

And? Other Dragon Ball characters stronger power-up and don't cause massive AOE damage that matches their Tier.

Or what, is Vegito's Final Kamehameha not even Tier 6?

I don't think your line of reasoning here means anything.

By that logic, vegeta's final atonement is < Roshi because it didn't destroy the moon or sum.
Using AoE fallacy in series that goes out of its way to explain "Yo, we actually condense and limit our area of effect attacks because our targets are 5'8 at best humanoid creatures and not the sun."
And it also states the stronger attack, and the more it gets condenses, the stronger I gets.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can I see where this reasoning comes from? Because that sounds like good scaling instead of what we currently have.

Here ya go.

"En aquel momento pasó a ser la técnica letal más poderosa que se había visto en Dragon Ball, y Goku no tuvo otra opción que esquivarla volando. Dicho sea de paso, en la edición anterior se habían destruido la caseta del lugar del torneo y la Luna, y en ésta el ring"

""At that moment it became the most powerful lethal technique that had been seen in Dragon Ball, and Goku had no choice but to dodge it by flying. By the way, in the previous edition they had destroyed the booth at the tournament venue and the Moon, and in this the ring"

Credits: ChronoUTL.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hard disagree for the reasons Dale and Net have mentioned. I think the OP is making way too many assumptions to go against blatant statements of characters being superior to Roshi, especially with the likes of King Piccolo, the 23rd Budokai cast, Goku and Piccolo.

Same, combined with Null's stuff

 

[Chariot190]

"Which shatters even the moon." immediately follows the word Kamehameha, a.k.a it's just specifying that the Super Kamehameha is a particularly stronger variation of the general technique, which is already established as being capable of moon-busting.

Not how words work.
"An extra strength Kamehameha, which shatters even the moon!".

The first part of the sentence is denoting this kamehameha as a particularly strong one, the second half of the gives an example of why and what this extra strength one can do.

You are literally just wrong here. If it said "An extra strength Kamehameha. Kamehameha's can shatter the moon", you'd be right, but it doesn't. The wording here is explicitly in reference to this particular case, That isn't a period lad between the denotion and the descripter. It's talking about the same thing.

Like idk how to explain this to you without treating you like you're five and then getting in shit for it because this wiki is thin skinned so not much to say beyond tough luck, not how neglish works, and also not how japanese works given the raw uses a possessive particle to describe it, literally giving ownership of the moon busting facet to this specific case.

The Super Kamehameha also has literally nothing to do with the moon, it's obviously alluding to Roshi's Kamehameha, which again, is just a basic Kamehameha.

Neither do half the statements, "The Spirit Bomb can blow away a planet!", is a scan in the same guide, but a Spirit Bomb never did that, it's just saying "yeah hey it's THIS strong at least lol", just because a previous attack did so, doesn't mean that scan is talking about it when it's literally explicitly talking about a specific case as per both languages and not up for interpretation because that isn't how those string of words connecting entail.

Nope.

1. During Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, the MAX Power Kamehameha is not listed as a new version of the technique at all, as you can see in the Special Attacks section. You can see that it's not listed as a new technique during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
   • Super Kamehameha, however, is listed as a stronger version of the Kamehameha, it includes the one used as 21st Budokai that shattered the moon since it was all bundled up in the same category
2. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special cites the Kamehameha that destroyed the moon as a normal Kamehameha. Translation.
3. Daizenshuu again cites the moon busting Kamehameha as just a Kamehameha.
4. El Manga Legendario, the "spanish guide I love" also lists Roshi's moon busting wave as a regular Kamehameha. Translation.
5. Dragon Ball: Bouken Special again explains that the MAX Power Kamehameha is just the maximum output of the regular version of the technique. Translation.

Some of the links are broken, but ehh.

When half your scans don't work, that's a problem, not that I care. I think Roshi should be 5-C based on the fact he do be doing that, and some of the yap like Tribeam does kinda enforce it upscaling, I'm just saying that particular scan is solely in reference to Goku, and as such, Goku and Piccolo Jr should stay 5-C no matter what. The existence of other scans saying kamehameha's as a whole being able to moon bust, doesn't change the super kamehameha scan being about just that specific instance.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

All the examples you gave are either hyperbole, explanations I already gave in the OP, and addressing inconsistencies with using DB guidebooks as justification.

"He is stronger than me, me, a guy who can sense ki, and knows my own power and the power of that person."
Nah, just a hyperbole.
A statement Iike that cannot be hyperbole.
Whenever yall cannot argue, you go to the hyperbole.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Mark me down for a complete disagree. There are blatant statements that counter that notion of reason and simply ignore the many statements that put people not only above Roshi, but above MAXU POWAH

 

[TheRustyOne]

Also again why are we so hung up on the fact that Roshi was in his MAX form when this was done. Piccolo Jr literally survived goku's very canonically moon busting Kamehameha and was still pushed somewhat by Krillin while being casual

Piccolo Daima was > Krillin and Kami (when he restored the moon) by all rights tien thinking he could take on a faster KP in Goku for reasons I already said above makes the Moon level pretty clear

I'm more so about changing the current reasoning on the profiles, which I find to be very lackluster.

I feel like people are arguing far too emotionally and not actually calming down and thinking.

I didn't say anything about Vegito or other characters. The argument I was bringing up was that if King Piccolo is casually Moon level, then destroying a city should've been a casual matter, but it looked like he had to visibly put effort into it. That was all. I didn't say that all DB characters are only as powerful as the biggest thing they've blown up.

Yes you HEAVILY implied that.

I think that people should generally keep in mind that the guidebooks are still just secondary canon too.

Evidence from the manga should, on a case-by-case scenario, generally take priority... And we did see Demon King Piccolo visibly have to power-up and put effort into destroying a city.

What else am I suppose to think when you say that? You're literally bring up the AOE of his charged attack on a point against his current rating.

Which isn't fair in the slightest. Him having a charged attack that's only city size doesn't mean anything, he can still easily be Moon level or whatever.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Here ya go.

Nuh uh, that's hyperbole! Because uhh...Hyperbole.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

For the person who made the revision, what are you thinking about Goku and Majunior scaling atm? Just curious.

 

[Godernet]

I already detailed that there were no possible tactics that could have been used for Roshi to unleash his MAX Power Kamehameha. No one was strong enough to restrain or trap Piccolo long enough for him to unleash the MAX Power Kamehameha.

No tactics you can think of ≠ no possible tactics at all

It's not our place to assume hypothetical scenarios and take them as a guaranteed fact over the words of a reliable source in the actual series.

As for the argument of the statements Roshi saying he pales in power in comparison to others, that still isn't direct proof that Roshi is referring to his MAX Power Kamehameha. For Roshi, comparing his MAX Power form to others is practically useless because it has extreme flaws that make it impractical to utilize. We have never seen any character endure or utilize a similar level of power until Piccolo's next feat, so using those kind of statements in this context is flawed.

"proof" just isn't a requirement.

we're talking about the word of mouth of the 200-year-old martial arts master who has encountered Piccolo twice, was killed by him, and can sense his exact power level. and when he makes comparative statements before and after the events, he doesn't add the caveats that you're trying to impose, he makes a holistic statement practically saying "Piccolo is massively stronger."

you won't get something more straightforward than that.

I would concede, but my arguments are that we need more than just ambiguous assumptions that Roshi is referring to his MAX Power form when scaling everyone to 5-C. That is the SOLE feat that is being used to justify it, using a form only one character ever used, when no other remotely similar 5-C feats exist to support the scaling.

practically the entire OP is ambiguous assumptions on information we're never actually given in the series.

I would say direct statements from credible characters are far more credible than that.

Also, not two arcs later we get more Tier 5 lore and statements and an ever-climbing ascension of power that continues every arc, saying this is the sole feat like Dragon Ball never sees another Tier 5 feat is overselling it.

And we did see Demon King Piccolo visibly have to power-up and put effort into destroying a city.

Dragon Ball Super characters are ludicrously past tier 5 and are sometimes depicted struggling to destroy a large area as they power up, I wouldn't say that's a strong argument.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nuh uh, that's hyperbole! Because uhh...Hyperbole.

Don't. I will delete any derailing or mocking comment I see from here on.

 

[Damage3245]

What else am I suppose to think when you say that? You're literally bring up the AOE of his charged attack on a point against his current rating.

Which isn't fair in the slightest. Him having a charged attack that's only city size doesn't mean anything, he can still easily be Moon level or whatever.

If you don't get what I mean, then I'll just drop it and save us both from this point.



Anyway - I think the opposition have brought up some good points too.

Right now I'm mostly of the opinion that at the very least 22nd Budokai Tien should be downgraded, with only his Tri-beam scaling to 5-C.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Here ya go.

I mean about Tien's Tri-Beam not working against King Piccolo, we already accept Tien's attack being 5-C so I wasn't questioning that part.

Sorry if I confused you.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

And we did see Demon King Piccolo visibly have to power-up and put effort into destroying a city.

2-C Vegito using everything he had couldn't destroy a couple of city blocks with a Final Kamehameha. So uh, not the best comparison.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

I mean about Tien's Tri-Beam not working against King Piccolo, we already accept Tien's attack being 5-C so I wasn't questioning that part.

Sorry if I confused you.

I think something good is that, it seems Tien is more prone to use the Neo Tri Beam than Roshi is to use the MAX Kamehameha. I don't agree with this in a like, "fight to the death" standard, but I think this argument would hit well with the OP. If TIEN, someone who isn't bothered using such a technique in a tourney to hit his opponent finds himself useless against DKP, then it just means that DKP is generally above him.

 

[Damage3245]

2-C Vegito using everything he had couldn't destroy a couple of city blocks with a Final Kamehameha. So uh, not the best comparison.

Not relevant to my point as far as I'm concerned, a complete strawman. Like, if you think I'm being facetious then just think, do you really think that I'd ever seriously argue that Vegito should be City Block level?

If not, then you clearly know that is not my actual argument then.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Not relevant to my point as far as I'm concerned, a complete strawman. Like, if you think I'm being facetious then just think, do you really think that I'd ever seriously argue that Vegito should be City Block level?

If not, then you clearly know that is not my actual argument then.

That was mostly a joke.

 

[Damage3245]

That was mostly a joke

Okay, fair enough.

 

[SunDaGamer]

i mean..........i never understood this "limited by the power of creator" statement......Shenron in DBS Super Hero did something beyond the "power" od Dende, that being bringing Piccolo's inner potential, and even granted him a stronger form in Orange Piccolo, both of which made him like, Super Saiyan Blue levels of power......multiplier wise at least, which is FAR beyond Dende........so, isn't this a bit too vague to use for scalling?

Shenron used a similar kind of technique Elder Guru and Elder Kai use to bring out people's potential which worked despite the elders being far weaker than Namek Krillin or Ultimate Gohan, if Piccolo asked Shenron to straight up multiply his power then it wouldn't work

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Neither do half the statements, "The Spirit Bomb can blow away a planet!", is a scan in the same guide, but a Spirit Bomb never did that, it's just saying "yeah hey it's THIS strong at least lol", just because a previous attack did so, doesn't mean that scan is talking about it when it's literally explicitly talking about a specific case as per both languages and not up for interpretation because that isn't how those string of words connecting entail.

The big difference is that one is legit said by King Kai.
I have no clue what the original Jap version says, maybe the translation is just iffy. Maybe.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

With the scans null showed, DKP being above everyone [Including Max power roshi] is pretty uh...balant. and just why not, Piccolo states that he can destroy the entire world, so...uhh strangely consistent.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

No tactics you can think of ≠ no possible tactics at all

It's not our place to assume hypothetical scenarios and take them as a guaranteed fact over the words of a reliable source in the actual series.

It is your place when the entire premise of the argument that King Piccolo is 5-C relies on the assumption that Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha wouldn't have been enough to defeat King Piccolo.

"proof" just isn't a requirement.

we're talking about the word of mouth of the 200-year-old martial arts master who has encountered Piccolo twice, was killed by him, and can sense his exact power level. and when he makes comparative statements before and after the events, he doesn't add the caveats that you're trying to impose, he makes a holistic statement practically saying "Piccolo is massively stronger."

you won't get something more straightforward than that.

There's also the straightforward fact that Roshi needs to have a clear, non-moving target in order to fire his MAX Power Kamehameha wave, otherwise it would miss anad potentially blow up the planet. Having a stronger attack does not inherently mean you're stronger than the opponent. It's been demonstrated several times with SSJ Vegeta Final Flash vs Cell, SSJ Goku Kamehameha vs Cell, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon against Raditz. All those characters were acknowledged as stronger, but they were still susceptible to a weaker opponent's strongest attack. Same applies here. King Piccolo would still be susceptible to the MAX Power Kamehameha because it's vastly stronger.

practically the entire OP is ambiguous assumptions on information we're never actually given in the series.

I would say direct statements from credible characters are far more credible than that.

Also, not two arcs later we get more Tier 5 lore and statements and an ever-climbing ascension of power that continues every arc, saying this is the sole feat like Dragon Ball never sees another Tier 5 feat is overselling it.

Direct Statements don't automatically reflect the AP. I repeatedly stated that and mentioned that having a powerful attack is worthless if you can't use it. And I never said that Tier 5 lore wasn't present. I'm arguing only one character ever displayed such a feat and that he was unique in it until Piccolo replicated it in DBZ.

Dragon Ball Super characters are ludicrously past tier 5 and are sometimes depicted struggling to destroy a large area as they power up, I wouldn't say that's a strong argument.

That's when the lore was already established with multiple planet-destruction feats by many characters. Here there's only one feat given by a single character who has a unique transformation at this point in the series and has a powerful attack that doesn't reflect his overall power.

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

With the scans null showed, DKP being above everyone [Including Max power roshi] is pretty uh...balant. and just why not, Piccolo states that he can destroy the entire world, so...uhh strangely consistent.

So... Planet level Majunior when?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

"Serious" Roshi

Here is the main crux of the argument that was used in the previous thread to upgrade everyone to 5-C. Daizenshuu states that Tien and Master Roshi have a power level of 180. I do not argue this power level. What I am arguing is that the premise that Master Roshi's "serious state" is the same as his max power state, or that the muscular form he used when fighting Tien is the power level with 139, is ridiculous. One can clearly see there is a difference between Master Roshi's regular state and when he gets serious. When he prepares to eliminate the fires on Ox Mountain, you can see that he is very skinny and looks like a decrepit old man. THAT is his regular state when he's not fighting serious, and when his power level is 139. Not entirely muscular like his MAX Power form, but still muscular enough. The very fact they went out of their way to mark them as the same power level of 180 goes to show they directly considered Roshi's muscular form to be his "serious" form, not his MAX Power form.

The guidebook which was being used as evidence in the previous thread says Roshi's power level is 139 when he's not fighting. There's even in-series evidence to prove my point. In the series itself, when Bulma uses the scouter, she calculates Master Roshi's power level in his regular state as 139. This means Roshi and Tien were at equal power levels of 180 if we are using the logic of the guidebook.

Topaz’s thread addressed this part. Roshi is never stated to have a BP of 180 in the Daizenshuu, but in the Weekly Jump Magazine. In the thread we took Daizenshuu (139) instead of the 180 from the magazine because there were tons of contradictions in it besides that one statement. Crt here.

Master Roshi Said No Version of the Kamehameha Wave Would Work Against Tien's Tri-beam.

This is one of the stronger pieces of evidence to suggest that Tien had surpassed the 5-C Kamehameha. I think it's tempting, but it's still not a direct indication that the Tri-beam is comparable to the MAX Power Kamehameha wave. Remember that Roshi was speaking in the context of watching Goku's match with Tien, and Krillin was asking if Goku's Kamehameha wave would work against Tien. I argue that Roshi was referring to whether any version of Goku's Kamehameha wave would be strong enough to deal with the Tri-beam. If Roshi outright said, "Even my MAX Power Kamehameha wave wouldn't be enough," I'd concede. But it's too ambiguous, and with the evidence I've already demonstrated so far, I don't think this should be used as a main point for 5-C Tien.

Nah, regarding the tribeam point.

Master Roshi Trained and Was Stronger in the 22nd World Tournament.

Just because Master Roshi trained three years from the 21st World Tournament does not mean he became as strong in his regular form as his MAX Power Kamehameha wave. All that would mean is he'd become significantly stronger compared to his previous self in the past world tournament. You would have to show proof or statements that he'd reached the heights of his 5-C through direct statements, and all the statements used to support the idea are based on flawed or ambiguous logic

I don’t even really understand this argument, but we’re not just randomly saying he became moon level. We’re saying he trained for 3 years, and performed a 5-C feat by fighting with Tien which is what he scales to, I’m hella confused trying to understand this one.

Master Roshi said All His Students Surpassed Him.

That does not automatically correlate to all his students surpassing him in raw power. Multiple aspects come with surpassing someone. Battle instincts, speed, tactics, techniques, intuition. Never once did Master Roshi say, "Even my MAX Power form wouldn't be enough against them." Given that Roshi fights in his serious, more muscular form whenever he's fighting strong opponents during Dragon Ball, it seems clear that Roshi meant his students had surpassed his serious state, his power level of 180. If you want to try and otherwise, you have to give me proof that any of these fighters displayed any similar levels of strength to Roshi's moon-busting Kamehameha wave before Piccolo's feat in Dragon Ball Z. Since no such proof exists, it is more appropriate to assume that his students surpassed his serious state and not his MAX Power form, given all of the flaws with the form I've already listed.

Now, generally, does the statement of "X character surpasses me" imply they surpass them in raw power? Yes. But not always. That statement does not always encompass every aspect of a character's abilities. In this instance, given the fact there are no other 5-C feats displayed during Dragon Ball, this is one of the exceptions to the rule. To prove this isn't the exception, there would have to be more specific, repeated statements and feats demonstrated. For instance, in One-Punch Man, when Suiryu fights Gouketsu and is completely overpowered, Suiryu says, "He is above me in all aspects," or "He's stronger than I am in many ways," depending on the translation. That's an example of a more clear-cut demonstration of "surpassing" being used to refer to strength and other aspects. No such statement was ever made by Roshi in the manga or anime.

The context of the student’s surpassing them seems to clearly reference their strength. I think Roshi stating his students surpassing him should mean just that. Yamcha having a BP of 177 is why 180 was accepted as being 5-C in the Topaz thread, and with feats that support that. For example, being able to impress Kami, tank blows from Kami, and damage Kami with his Sokidan. This is the same Kami who’s WAY stronger than the Goku who beat Demon King Piccolo, as the others have shown above why he’s definitely 5-C. That’s why 177 starts the 5-C stuff, and 180 is smoothly into 5-C.

 

[Chariot190]

For record, anything above the funny Tribeam I think should stay 5-C, anything below can die though

The big difference is that one is legit said by King Kai.

I don't care. Do I really need to grab like a dozen examples from Daizenshuu of them using descripters not used in manga just to appease a point that isn't even up for debate?

I have no clue what the original Jap version says, maybe the translation is just iffy. Maybe.

The translation is fine, not even the eng says what you're claiming it means.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm arguing only one character ever displayed such a feat and that he was unique in it until Piccolo replicated it in DBZ.

"It's a super-powered Kamehemaha! Kamehamehas can shatter even the moon!"

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/10/nx6zpf.png

Then your argument is blatantly wrong

Again Piccolo Jr. survives this

 

[Damage3245]

For record, anything above the funny Tribeam I think should stay 5-C, anything below can die though

This is my current view on it too, yeah.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

For record, anything above the funny Tribeam I think should stay 5-C, anything below can die though

NOOOOOOOOO DON'T LEAVE ME 5-C CHI CHI

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

For record, anything above the funny Tribeam I think should stay 5-C, anything below can die though

Agree.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

"It's a super-powered Kamehemaha! Kamehamehas can shatter even the moon!"

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/10/nx6zpf.png

Then your argument is blatantly wrong

Again Piccolo Jr. survives this

Personally, I'm against using DB guidebooks as indicators of tier level because there's a lot of contradictions in them and they end up being retconned anyway.

 

[Dalesean027]

Personally, I'm against using DB guidebooks as indicators of tier level because there's a lot of contradictions in them and they end up being retconned anyway.

This is heavily sourced dawg this is the consistent lore of Goku's kamehameha here

How you feel doesn't matter when what is says is as objective and blatant as it is

 

[Thebadtimetrio32]

Personally, I'm against using DB guidebooks as indicators of tier level because there's a lot of contradictions in them and they end up being retconned anyway.

I probably agree, but I think they can be case-by-case. I think as long as it isn't contradicted in the manga, it's 100% fine. Which afaik, 5-C isn't inconsistent for Goku and Majunior.

 

[LordTracer]

For record, anything above the funny Tribeam I think should stay 5-C, anything below can die though

This is about where I’m at as well. I don’t have any issue with 22nd Budokai Tien, Roshi, Goku, etc. being 5-C, but I also don’t particularly mind them being downgraded.

But King Piccolo? KP Arc and 23rd Budokai Goku, Piccolo Junior, Kami, 23rd Budokai Krillin, Yamcha and Tien, etc? They should absolutely stay 5-C.