NPI / Void Manip CRT: Punching incorporeal stuff isn't X power but NPI inconsistency

[Bobsican]

I've had a minor issue of sorts off-site on this stuff, and current standards lean into it being quite easy to consider/apply, so may as well.

Basically, currently we have this segment in the Soul Manipulation page:

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Then this in the Concept Manipulation page:

It should be noted that the ability to interact with abstract entities (Type 1) directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered as non-physical interaction, and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate concepts in other contexts.

So far it's clear there's an standard on the site of physically interacting with non-physical things doesn't give the respective power (say, Soul Manip), but rather just falls as NPI.

But then we have this in the Void Manipulation page:

• Nonexistent Interaction: Since the user of this ability can treat "nothingness" as if it was a physical object they could manipulate, they can, in turn, affect beings that do not exist given that they also have the ability to perceive them. Note that it should not be assumed a character can 'manipulate' another character who is nonexistent, although it can be assumed that they can at least interact with characters who do not exist.

I'm going to now list the issues:

- The note featured in Soul and CM should be removed and reworded to the NPI page, as much as a note on all hax abilities not having numbers as an inherent potency factor was just listed on the Hax page instead, namely out of ease in consistent reference and editing on the standard.

- Otherwise, the part in Concept Manip should be sent to Abstract Existence (it clearly refers to that power, plus not everyone with CM has AE to begin with), and a note similar to the one in the Concept and Soul Manip pages should be added to the Incorporeality page to avoid misunderstandings. The one in CM should also be removed as it's not really a physiology power on its own like AE, and should be handled there, or in the NPI page if anything. Note that I prefer the former as it's easier to apply and provides way more consistency on the standard.

- The before-mentioned Void Manip section needs to be reworded to avoid being contradictive/easy to misunderstand to this standard, namely clarify that such power isn't Void Manip by itself, but rather NPI, or even be removed.

- There's also the matter on that given recent NEP revisions, there's no real difference between someone "nonexistent" and that "does not exist", so that probably should be covered too regarding Void Manip.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Honestly a couple of things with just the Soul Manipulation page alone would need a rewrite.

Like, there is a note saying that simply interacting with souls as if they were physical doesn't warrant Soul Manipulation, but the description of it defines Soul Manipulation as if that would be the case;

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

I assume the note was added on later, but still, if we are gonna go by this standard (Which admittedly I don't really get. Wouldn't punching a soul, directly damaging it, count as "manipulating" it? But that is besides the point of the CRT), that needs to be fixed.

I think this CRT is fine.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Damage3245

What do you think about this?

Also, Bobsican, can you clarify a bit regarding what you want to do here exactly and why?

 

[DontTalkDT]

The notes on the soul and concept manip pages regarding NPI seem like they should stay for me. The person that wrongly wishes to list physically punching a ghost as soul manip, doesn't look at the NPI page for clarification but more likely on the soul manip page. Same for concepts.

I also think the potency notes should stay. Are they redundant? Yes. However, those pages are the most common offenders so an extra reminder on them doesn't hurt.

The void manip thing should be reworded to say that it's considered NPI instead, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out.

The void manip thing should be reworded to say that it's considered NPI instead, I guess.

Anyway, is somebody here willing to handle this please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

TBF, I always considered NPI to be like an extremely limited version of Soul Manipulation, specifically soul damaging + eventual Soul destruction. But not full soul manipulation such as the ability to remove souls from the body, and soul damaging/destruction is limited to being able to do so with souls without a body unless proven otherwise.

But for other details, I basically agree with DontTalkDT's take.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Agreed with both DDM and DontTalk.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. What was accepted here can probably be applied now then.

 

[Bobsican]

The notes on the soul and concept manip pages regarding NPI seem like they should stay for me. The person that wrongly wishes to list physically punching a ghost as soul manip, doesn't look at the NPI page for clarification but more likely on the soul manip page. Same for concepts.

I also think the potency notes should stay. Are they redundant? Yes. However, those pages are the most common offenders so an extra reminder on them doesn't hurt.

The void manip thing should be reworded to say that it's considered NPI instead, I guess.

In that case perhaps we could give a brief reminder of that in the pages where this tends to happen, then link to the NPI page with a "main" note for this? A similar thing was done already in the Mind Manipulation page for the potency stuff, after all.

Anyways, we'd still need some wordings for the general NPI rule of just hitting a non-physical thing being NPI and not other powers but NPI itself, and for the void manip stuff.

 

[Elizhaa]

Agreed with both DDM and DontTalk.

I agreed.

I guess the text could be rewritten and moved in the page summary similarly to the other cases:

• It should be noted that the ability to interact with nonexistent beings or objects directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate nothingness in other contexts.

 

[Agnaa]

I agree with DDM and DontTalk.

 

[GyroNutz]

Agreed with both DDM and DontTalk.

Same here ^

 

[Antvasima]

I agreed.

I guess the text could be rewritten and moved in the page summary similarly to the other cases:

• It should be noted that the ability to interact with nonexistent beings or objects directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate nothingness in other contexts.

So should Elizhaa's suggested text be applied then, and if so, is some administrator or bureaucrat here willing to handle it please?

 

[AKM sama]

I agree with DT and Elizhaa's text seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

So is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here then?

 

[Bobsican]

On another note, I still think a general note on interacting with non-physical stuff falling as NPI and not X manipulation should be in the NPI page, it seems odd that several pages about non-physical stuff have such note, but the NPI page itself doesn't.
We could just copy-paste the one in Soul Manip for it, seems broad enought.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate them in other contexts.

I also changed "souls" with "them" at the end to not make it specific on souls for these purposes.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I guess the text could be rewritten and moved in the page summary similarly to the other cases:

• It should be noted that the ability to interact with nonexistent beings or objects directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate nothingness in other contexts.

Is somebody here willing to apply what has been accepted here please? If you tell me which page(s) to unlock for you, I can do so if necessary.

 

[Elizhaa]

Is somebody here willing to apply what has been accepted here please? If you tell me which page(s) to unlock for you, I can do so if necessary.

Added.

On another note, I still think a general note on interacting with non-physical stuff falling as NPI and not X manipulation should be in the NPI page, it seems odd that several pages about non-physical stuff have such note, but the NPI page itself doesn't.
We could just copy-paste the one in Soul Manip for it, seems broad enought.



I also changed "souls" with "them" at the end to not make it specific on souls for these purposes.

It was a simple grammar change, so I made it on the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Elizhaa. It is very appreciated.

 

[Bobsican]

It was a simple grammar change, so I made it on the page.

That was intended for the NPI page itself, not the soul manip page, not that that was detrimental, but there's still that addition left to the NPI page itself as said before.

 

[Elizhaa]

That was intended for the NPI page itself, not the soul manip page, not that that was detrimental, but there's still that addition left to the NPI page itself as said before.

Alright, I will move the changes to NPI page instead. It is done.

 

[Antvasima]

So have all of the changes been accurately applied now then?

 

[Elizhaa]

I believe so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can some other member(s) here confirm please?

 

[Bobsican]

There's nothing else now that everything has been addressed, this can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.

 

[Bobsican]

Necro.

Also, that'd deserve its own thread.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh shit I thought this was the hot takes thread. Apologies.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Lock this, then.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will close this thread out then.