the statement is for him scalling to the Emeralds capacity based on Eggman's statement about them in relation to him, the Emeralds are the ones with the statements that puts them above Precioustone, not Eggman's to Metal Overlord during Heroes
Why? He literally went there in shuffles, he can
what are you even refering to? what part of my argument is this even a response to?
ok, so? he also never says they aren't enough in the English version, but he clearly says that even for them, it would be hard and that there was a chance of losing against MO
We do know he can harness their power up to their fullest potential tho? in Gens his younger, more inexperienced self did just that. The point is not that Sonic is or isn't using the Full Power of the Emeralds, that isn't for now, the true point is Eggman thinking MO would be a hard fight even with the Emeralds, a "slim chance" even with their power, when he thinks them much superior to all else he knew at the time, which includes the Precioustone
No it isn't? he doesn't need to be >>> the Chaos Emeralds, he needs to be MO ~ Chaos Emeralds, they only need to be comparable, which is exactly what i would call a "even with this power, winning will be hard" statements imply, that the Emeralds, as powerful as Eggman thinks they are, wouldn't be enough for a clean win or easy fight against MO, that it would take a hard battle to win against him, with it still having a chance to lose
tell me 1 reason as to why Classic Sonic cannot, under any circumstance, know how to access the Emerald's full capacity, even when we are shown he can
Did you suddenly forget Sonic's character and how he acts?
they literally comment on his power during the fight, saying he is "tough" and asking if he is invincible, plus Sonic cannot harm him at all during the fight, he NEEDS the team blast, a combination attack fusing his power with Super Knuckles and Super Tails, otherwise MO is just completely impervious to any of his attacks
I don't understand this selectivity, when it's something beneficial to personal scaling it's fine, but when it's not it's too vague, or did we forget this
He can't do it in Heroes in time. Please THINK before posting.
This doesn’t mean superiority to Maginaryworld. Sonic could still lose against Final Hazard, Egg Salamander, Perfect Chaos (whose upgrade was rejected), etc. It just means he would struggle, which he would if he was 2-C.
They need to be superior, because the emeralds being superior to the precious stone is for their full power. If Eggman thinks emeralds are superior than Overlord, he can't scale to the Precious Stone.
Because he never shows such mastery without Modern Sonic, and struggles against Phantom King and Dark Dragon.
Did YOU? Sonic showed worry before in games like Colors against the Nega-Wisp Armor (who ironically enough, has the same hype as Metal Overlord). Meanwhile Sonic was not worried at all.
Tails and Knuckles say so, which never used the full power of the emeralds. Needing Team Blast doesn't mean full power, Shadow needs to shoot Devil Doom's eye to hurt him, yet Doom isn't tier 1 in Shadow.
This is Eggman very clearly saying “I didn’t think this level of power was possible”, which is a clear indicator that it’s above the Precioustone (which makes sense with its lore, the scepter and PotS sustains the existence of parallel dimensions, which would include Maginaryworld)
Again, the statement of Eggman is to prpve they are above even what Eggman thinks the Emeralds are capable of, NOT for proving MO >> Preciostone directly, why are you talking as if this statement was the proof?
He doesn't think they are superior to MO, he thinks they are both comparable enough that even they have only a slim chance against him, that is the point, show me where has Eggman said the Emeralds are superior to MO
This changes the fact that Modern Sonic was not shown helping him harness rhe Emeralds at all, how?
Those he wasn't him the full power of the emeralds, his rating varies remember? He could just be using the baseline power
And Sonic never corrects them and says "don't give up yet", so unless Sonic is being a prick for not saying "you guys dumb? This one is weal dude" or something
1 drop the strawman, never said it meant that
Seriously don't know what argument you are answering, this was never a point or an argument
That's fanfiction made up by Sonic wiki that unfortunately was used here (in fact the scan in the profile used to be a screenshot from that wiki, and I'm sure the whole sustain thing was applied without a thread) but I will remain silent so I don't derail the thread
If the statement isn’t Eggman saying they’re above the Precioustone, then it’s kinda useless because there was no other cosmology wiping stuff at the time (barring retroactive knowledge Eggman has from Generations)
As of Heroes, not really? We’ve never gotten Eggman’s opinion on how they stack up to other McGuffins post Classic era as of that game.
Well, yes I agree that saying the influence extends to MW is headcanon. But the power allowing for parallel universes to exist is not.
This is also headcanon, we can argue tgidin dms if you want
Except Eggman doesn't believe Overlord is above the emeralds. That debunks your entire point.
He just thinks that the emeralds would give him a slim chance of victory. He doesn't think the full power of the emeralds. That just "them" (with the emeralds) would have a slim chance of victory.
Just like Overlord, thanks for understanding.
So you want to upgrade everyone? Thanks for showing your real face.
Why would he mock his friends for struggling? Do you lack social awareness? Sonic wouldn't make fun of his friends in a serious battle. Obviously he would encourage them to "show what they're made of". Yet, Sonic doesn't feel like Metal Overlord is this impossible foe to defeat.
I have been. You're the one who needs to stop dismissing points against because you can't follow your own discussion. I used these examples to show Sonic CAN struggle and still only use 2-C levels of power. You are the one who needs to actually understand what people are arguing for instead of constantly dismissing them.
That aint allowed tho, it's essentially non-canon
"Interpre-" yeah no, there's nothing to intepret.
Literally not what it says. Nowhere does it say that, and in fact he still says the chance is basically nonexistent even with them.
"Don't use statements, except this twitter statement here because it-"Also, Toyoda explicitly said that the Egg Dragoon>>>>Metal Overlord. That's more of an explicit statement than Overlord being stronger than Maginary World. This means we can't avoid the tier 1 base discussions if we want to apply this downgrade.
What, your arguments against it are twitter statements? That aren't even stated as a fact but a subjective view?
Literally says the EXACT same thing in the Japanese version. You're arguing semantics as if the end result isn't the exact same "Even with the Emerald's power we very well might get our asses kicked still".
Shadow deliberately holding back.
"Consequences", it being annoying, doesn't make it wrong.
Not at all what he says. Especially at the time mind you, all the funny chaos emerald highly variable by numerous infinities is a concept that came in way later, the intent is pretty evident what he meant. He's aware of Low 1-C shit, and he thinks the Emerald's above them, and even with them, the actual chances of doing a thing is miniscule.
This isn’t what I said. I am saying if you're using statements you should use all of them, not a selective few. You're accusing me of what I am actually accusing others for.
This is such a false analogy holy shit, one is a statement from the game, the other is an opinion from someone on twitter
Ok then use them, in which case. Nothing happens because that type of statement isn't allowed per wiki rules. But if we did use it. It gets scaling then, what's the problem?
I am because your points, in the end, don't change anything.
Damn, imagine arguing about the games I've actually played, my bad I never played Tails' Adventure or Sonic the Dark Chronicles.
I'm not really, I just don't give a shit. If the scaling points to that, it is what it is, much the same way Sonic scales to 2-C now because the scaling pointed to that, that ain't on MO or the statements and scaling involved here.
Or maybe I think your points are wrong or don't hold up, and the opposing arguments require less interpretations, subjectivity and less mental gymnastics.
Toyoda is clearly saying Egg Dragoon>>>Overlord and Void. I am tired of this blatant denial just to keep Overlord at tier 1.
Lad half the argument hinged on an unused statement.
This takes place after Advanced/Shuffle/etc. Eggman glazes the emeralds post those. They're in Omega's initial reply.
the statement is him talking about the Emeralds being >>> all he knows at the time, which inlcludes the Precioustone, which isn't about MO, the statement of the Emeralds being a slim chance against MO? that has everything to do with MO
As of heroes we did, in Advance 1, which is before Heroes and after Shuffle(Where he went after the Prescioustone for its power), he straight up said that the emeralds' power are, as far as he knows, unimaginable, unbelieavable and infinite, aka they are beyond anything he could imagine at the time, including the Precioustone
Isn't Sleeping Egg zone from Sonic Chaos a universe here?
I’m of the opinion not every dream is universe sized, but that’s a different topic.
You and derailing threads have a deep romantic story
If we rate Adventure Super Sonic as Low 1-C in the games after the fact. We do it for Modern Super Sonic's 1-C, so it'd be weird not to do it for Adventure Super Sonic
You’re the one who brought up the emeralds being considered tier 1 as of Advance, so like yes, I think the implications are important to talk about
Or the people desperate to keep Overlord at low 1-C, yet don't even bother to do one bit of work in this verse, are doing extreme amounts of mental gymnastics and denial to simply have their agenda. I don't want any sass for someone who never went to a Sonic thread before this one.
It's not derailing, it's the logical conclusion of this thread. Just like how "hype" statements would 100% make Infinite 1-C if we took them 100% seriously. In fact he has far more than Overlord with a more solid base.
Because Generations shows Base Sonic can defeat Adventure super foes, and those robots don't have anything special to them. Those statements are supported by FEATS.
Nah, contrary to MO, Advance has no statement of Sonic using that much power
He wasn't even part of the main plot. All he did was cause trouble to Sonic and co. He probably doesn't even know Illumina exists since Sonic only found out at the very end of the game.
It makes more sense and has far less mental gymnastics compared to the opposition. I quite frankly don't care if his ass is 4-A, 3-A, 2-C, 1-A, or goddamn 9-B, whatever the evidence presented suggests, is what I will argue.
I want all the times I helped Dale and discussed Sonic feats with him back then.
Almost every argument given is prefaced, or tacked on with "Sonic would scale so bad". As if that actually effects the scaling or statements or feats at play. No, that, is what we call an agenda.
Sucks, I can post wherever I please. And I will continue do so. Get used to me. I'm here to stay.
Which isn't stated and on the contrary Eggman fully believes even with the Chaos slop the actual chance of beating them is miniscule.
Which is objectively not true. That isn't Base Shadow, it's Shadow after being noted to have gotten stronger. He's an unknown variable.
Looks straightforward to me. I'm taking it at face value.
Shadow objectively says he would only fight on Sonic's level, if he can not beat him as an equal, he won't beat him at all.
That's cool. Idc tho.
Cool, do it then.
Cool, do it then.
Sure. Idc, if that's what the context implicates, and they have the funny rocks to do so, and he says Infinite is unstoppable even then. Go for it idc.
Not at all given Eggman believes the pebbles > Preciousstone in power. And then believes even with them the actual likelyhood of beating MO at the time is almost non-existent because MO is simply that powerful.
