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NNT AP Revision

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speedster352 said:
Galand is using a weapon.
Click to expand...
Which is irrelevant to the point because his unnamed attacks are also with weapons. He rarely ever fights without one.

And anyway, you still have yet to provide even a scrap of evidence that named attacks > unnamed attacks.
speedster352 said:
You just can’t believe Meliodas is 2x stronger that’s what I mean by your pride.
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Yet you have to cherry pick details, half-address my points and omit scans to make it seem like you have a valid counter-argument.

Just drop this pride shit already, especially since A) other people disagree with you, and B) it's so arbitrary that I could simply say 'you just can't believe Meliodas isn't 2x stronger' and it would have the exact same validity.
speedster352 said:
Meliodas scales above DK Zeldris FC attack that makes him 2x stronger period.
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For the last time, I never said Meliodas didn't scale above that Full Countered attack. I just said that attack is obviously weaker than he is based on context. Again with the dishonesty.
 
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ByAsura said:
Which is irrelevant to the point because his unnamed attacks are also with weapons. He rarely ever fights without one.

And anyway, you still have yet to provide even a scrap of evidence that named attacks > unnamed attacks.

Yet you have to cherry pick details, half-address my points and omit scans to make it seem like you have a valid counter-argument.

Just drop this pride shit already, especially since A) other people disagree with you, and B) it's so arbitrary that I could simply say 'you just can't believe Meliodas isn't 2x stronger' and it would have the exact same validity.

For the last time, I never said Meliodas didn't scale above that Full Countered attack. I just said that attack is obviously weaker than he is based on context. Again with the dishonesty.
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So then that makes Meliodas ap 2x first form dk Zeldris good. How’s life?
 
speedster352 said:
So then that makes Meliodas ap 2x first form dk Zeldris good. How’s life?
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If DK Zel = 10 and the attacks He used = 5 said attacks aren’t as powerful as he is
therefore said FC’d attacks would be = 10 thus shouldn’t be considered as 2x DK’s AP (20)

I think that’s the point he is making Mel scales to the full countered attack but said attack is just weaker than others
 
speedster352 said:
So then that makes Meliodas ap 2x first form dk Zeldris good. How’s life?
Click to expand...
Again, no. Attacks < DK/suppressed Mel punches.

This conversation is insanely circular.
Makai64100 said:
If DK Zel = 10 and the attacks He used = 5 said attacks aren’t as powerful as he is
therefore said FC’d attacks would be = 10 thus shouldn’t be considered as 2x DK’s AP (20)

I think that’s the point he is making Mel scales to the full countered attack but said attack is just weaker than others
Click to expand...
Not really since we don’t see them combine, but that’s a good point, too. Zel DK took a shit ton of these slashes and was just pushed back a bit. So how could they possibly be equal to him?
 
ByAsura said:
Again, no. Attacks < DK/suppressed Mel punches.

This conversation is insanely circular.

Not really since we don’t see them combine, but that’s a good point, too. Zel DK took a shit ton of these slashes and was just pushed back a bit. So how could they possibly be equal to him?
Click to expand...
Anyway how’s life?
Makai64100 said:
If DK Zel = 10 and the attacks He used = 5 said attacks aren’t as powerful as he is
therefore said FC’d attacks would be = 10 thus shouldn’t be considered as 2x DK’s AP (20)

I think that’s the point he is making Mel scales to the full countered attack but said attack is just weaker than others
Click to expand...
yeah but there is no proof only head canon. Still Meliodas is 2x stronger than first form dk Zeldris
 
Until proven otherwise Dk attack has the same ap as himself and it would be head canon to say he just used an attack weaker than himself. Then he was hit with the FC attack so that up’s his durability and Meliodas is 2x stronger.
 
Speedster you don't need a statement of the attack being weaker than Meliodas's punches when the attack itself did significantly less damage to DKZ then Meliodas's punches even after it was full countered.

The feats themselves prove that Meliodas's punches are > DKZ's full countered hellblaze attack. You haven't countered this correctly at all, you just keep asserting "headcanon" when this isn't headcanon at all and is actually supported by the feats in the manga, stop doing this and actually debate correctly or hold your tongue on this matter because this getting tedious for Asura and others to debate against you since you keep stonewalling on this matter even though you're directly contradicted by the feats themselves.

Drop this point.
 
Deceived said:
Speedster you don't need a statement of the attack being weaker than Meliodas's punches when the attack itself did significantly less damage to DKZ then Meliodas's punches even after it was full countered.

The feats themselves prove that Meliodas's punches are > DKZ's full countered hellblaze attack. You haven't countered this correctly at all, you just keep asserting "headcanon" when this isn't headcanon at all and is actually supported by the feats in the manga, stop doing this and actually debate correctly or hold your tongue on this matter because this getting tedious for Asura and others to debate against you since you keep stonewalling on this matter even though you're directly contradicted by the feats themselves.

Drop this point.
Click to expand...
That’s just durability no strength involved it makes sense that Meliodas is 2x stronger for scaling above the FC attack. The attack has the same ap and it was FC so that is that. Meliodas is 2x stronger than Dk zeldris first form period.
 
Deceived said:
since you keep stonewalling
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This is just a massive stonewall, and nobody here agrees with Speed's claims.

So I think it's best to ignore the repetitive claims until something new/substantial is brought up.
 
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Speaking of more substantial scaling, I've noticed that only one person has directly given their opinions on using the Assault Mode multiplier. I think we should go more in-depth into that.

What does everyone else think about using it?

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Pain_to12 What's your opinions on this one?

Copy-pasting from the OP here:

This one is going to be more controversial, even to the point where I (who introduced the multiplier) disagree with it. Basically, 2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage an amped cocoon and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times amp (see below for details). I disagree because slicing something like butter isn't really indicative of insufficient strength to destroy it. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
 
Oof, you're right. I'll have to remove that Assault Mode multiplier, then.
I've shown in the OP where they're accepted, so I'll just outline them here.

Basically

1st Demon Mark scales well above a somewhat weakened Grey Hendrickson, who's explicitly Red Demon Hendrickson + a Gray Demon added together. Additionally, he greatly overwhelmed Snatch-amped Ban in speed and power, who added all of Meliodas' speed and power to his own (Ban normally is half as strong as Meliodas in the raws, but faster than him).

Fyi, Galand was markedly inferior, but not vastly, to Ban after he stole over half Galand's strength + some fodder's power. So Snatch/Physical Hunt are additive in both feats and statements.

2nd Demon Mark Zeldris went from being weaker than Chandler and Cusack in his first mark, to surpassing an amped fusion of Chandler and Cusack (explicitly a being they were split in half from), and outright doubled the speed of Ominous Nebula's vacuum by transforming.

So, it's from a combination of consistency, statements and direct scaling that's already been accepted. I've seen similar scaling on lots of other profiles.
 
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ByAsura said:
Oof, you're right. I'll have to remove that Assault Mode multiplier, then.
I've shown in the OP where they're accepted, so I'll just outline them here.

Basically

1st Demon Mark scales well above a somewhat weakened Grey Hendrickson, who's explicitly Red Demon Hendrickson + a Gray Demon added together. Additionally, he greatly overwhelmed Snatch-amped Ban in speed and power, who added all of Meliodas' speed and power to his own (Ban normally is half as strong as Meliodas in the raws, but faster than him).

Fyi, Galand was markedly inferior, but not vastly, to Ban after he stole over half Galand's strength + some fodder's power. So Snatch/Physical Hunt are additive in both feats and statements.

2nd Demon Mark Zeldris went from being weaker than Chandler and Cusack in his first mark, to surpassing an amped fusion of Chandler and Cusack (explicitly a being they were split in half from), and outright doubled the speed of Ominous Nebula's vacuum by transforming.

So, it's from a combination of consistency, statements and direct scaling that's already been accepted. I've seen similar scaling on lots of other profiles.
Click to expand...
So Snatch and Ominous Nebula's vacuum i have no issue with given the statements, but wouldn't using multipliers for the demon marks be going against the rules given there isn't a stated multiplier for them, you're just scaling them above other characters. To me they should just be "At least" whatever tier his lower forms are.
 
The statement, yes, but there's also massive consistency in Demon Mark in general amping both speed and power 2-fold (even with this exact same form of 2nd Demon Mark Zeldris, who, as I said, was in the same league as someone twice as strong as his 1st Mark). The fact that the statement exists just directly supports that.
 
ByAsura said:
The statement, yes, but there's also massive consistency in Demon Mark in general amping both speed and power 2-fold. The fact that the statement exists just directly supports that.
Click to expand...
Oh, well I didn't know there was a statement for the demon mark amping speed and power by 2x, you could've just posted that at the start.
 
I'll just ask Antvasima about some stuff in a bit (there's some more multipliers that'd also be affected). I swear that I've seen many profiles use this kind of logic, though.
 
ByAsura said:
I'll just ask Antvasima about some stuff in a bit (there's some more multipliers that'd also be affected). I swear that I've seen many profiles use this kind of logic, though.
Click to expand...
If you don't mind, how exactly will this affect the current ratings? Also I feel like most people don't know about this multiplier rule as no one calls them out on it.
 
ByAsura said:
Speaking of more substantial scaling, I've noticed that only one person has directly given their opinions on using the Assault Mode multiplier. I think we should go more in-depth into that.

What does everyone else think about using it?

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Pain_to12 What's your opinions on this one?

Copy-pasting from the OP here:

This one is going to be more controversial, even to the point where I (who introduced the multiplier) disagree with it. Basically, 2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage an amped cocoon and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times amp (see below for details). I disagree because slicing something like butter isn't really indicative of insufficient strength to destroy it. 41.22 teratons (Country level).
Click to expand...

I don't see a reason for disagreement, but if other feats done are consistent I don't see why not. But a single one can easily be an inconsistency. Also they are kind of a different Manga, cross-scaling will be filled with discrepancies
See Naruto and Boruto for more references
 
ByAsura said:
This is just a massive stonewall, and nobody here agrees with Speed's claims.

So I think it's best to ignore the repetitive claims until something new/substantial is brought up.
Click to expand...
Your in denial and claiming that I am stonewalling when I brought over 10 scans
 
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