NNT AP Revision

[Makai641001]

Does 1st Demon Mark Meliodas = 1st Demon Mark Zeldris in that movie?

They are portrayed as equals during the entire movie
Also going with What the author said i don’t think There is a problem about demon marks having the same effects and amps for every demons

I agree with all keys of Meliodas that using a Demon Mark is at least 2x above his Base Form. I don't agree that his 2nd Demon Mark is a 2x amp on top of his 1st Demon Mark. For example...

It is tho DM2 Zeldris is stated to be 2x Faster than DM1 and shown to be 2x more powerful in this instance

Base Meliodas = 1 Megaton

1st Demon Mark Meliodas = 2 Megatons

2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

3rd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

I agree to this^

I agree that him using a Demon Mark is ALWAYS at least 2x above his Base Form, I don't agree with the following...

Base Meliodas = 1 Megaton

1st Demon Mark Meliodas = 2 Megatons

2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = 4 Megatons

3rd Demon Mark Meliodas = 6 Megatons

I don't agree with this^

Mhmh that’s basically what we would get stacking DM2 on DM1 lol

Here's another issue I have with this. Zeldris' 2nd Demon Mark does not multiply his physical speed or attack power at all. That isn't what's being said. What's said is that the speed of the Ominous Nebula is doubled. That's all. This does not translate to physicals ot attack power. So this doesn't at all support a 2nd Demon Mark being 2x to Attack Power and Speed. And without a direct statement, it cannot be a multiplier. You can double the speed of Ominous Nebula on the profile, that's fine, but not Zeldris' or anyone else's physical speed, and certainly not their attack power. 2nd Demon Mark Zeldris being above the OG Demon while his 1st Demon Mark is below both Chandler and Cusack doesn't mean that a multiplier can be applied either since that's an isolated incident. That's not how the multiplier rules work. I can give many examples to this specific issue.

ON is his combat speed litteraly

During Enies Lobby, Gear 2nd Luffy's Jet Pistol does more damage to Lucci than his Base Bazooka. A Base Bazooka is 2x Luffy's regular AP, so we scale Gear 2nd Luffy more than 2x above his Base Form. However we do not then therefore say that Gear 2nd is ALWAYS a Multiplier of 2x to his Base Form. This is the same sort of situation, so it doesn't apply.

I see your point tho it’s quite different with the feats we use

 

[Makai641001]

Here is how the author refers to the demon mark.

魔神族の力の解放で暴走状態となってしまったトリスタンが参戦。

Tristan, who went out of control as a result of the release of the demonic race's power, has entered the war.

• Hence why I said DM2 would be a « Higher » stacked upon DM1 without being a 2x amp since it’s not directly stated
• I used Bleach as an example earlier

We gave the movie as evidence for them being relative amps
I gave 4Kota and the author statement that generalise it to all demons
It is shown in verse to be a physiology trait common to all demons
You Also are the one making the claim about it not being the same thing the Burden would logically be on you a burden of proof fallacy would be to reject the burden and put it on someone that Made 0 assumption about it being different


I mean i’m the one who confirmed the translation since the beginning Mitch…
Just read the OP

Dm1 amps Both DM2 amps AP to an unknown extent and speed 2x

Demon marks are the same for every demons

is it okay or you want me to reformulate something ?

That's referring to Meliodas' combat class compared to Fraudrin. Meliodas' power level here was 60k, and the Demon Mark increased it further, while Fraudrin was only 31k.

It's about applying the multiplier to other characters/incarnations of Meliodas.

That's not what I'm asking. Pre-Unsealed Meliodas was the one with the feats that show a 2x amp, so I'm asking if the 1st Mark multiplier only scales to Pre-Unsealed Meliodas, or if it can be applied to every incarnation of 1st Mark Demon Meliodas (i.e, Post-Purgatory and the Holy War era).

Ominous Nebula is just Zeldris' darkness being revolved at high speed to create a vortex, so it'd scale to physical speed.

Here is the Small translation i made (there are loads of similar ones about Tristan’s demon mark being generalised as a demon clan power hence why We should use it as a pure physiology trait having the same effects etc…)

 

[ByAsura]

To me, that doesn't seem like enough evidence for a uniform power boost.

 

[Makai641001]

To me, that doesn't seem like enough evidence for a uniform power boost.

It’s quite obvious that the author make 0 différence between Demon Marks

I mean there is 0 reason to assume Mel’s DM1 would be different than Zel’s etc…
You’Ve argued against Mitch and won this point already but i thought it Would be better to show an author statement as Additional proof

DM1 should be used to the same extent for every demons

DM2 should be used to the same extent for every demons

DM2 should be 2x AP at least in Zel’s case Using his feats as evidence

DM2 shouldn’t be considered as 2x AP IN any other situation Using Zel’s feats as evidence as it would go against the rules We should give « Higher » ratings for now waiting for more feats
I still think DM2 being a 2x amp in AP is consistant tho

Here are my current stances

We should all come to this/a conclusion and wait for more proofs we could re discuss this topic later this thread should not revolve around a single subject

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

That's not what I'm asking. Pre-Unsealed Meliodas was the one with the feats that show a 2x amp, so I'm asking if the 1st Mark multiplier only scales to Pre-Unsealed Meliodas, or if it can be applied to every incarnation of 1st Mark Demon Meliodas (i.e, Post-Purgatory and the Holy War era).

Yes, of course. ANY TIME Meliodas uses a Demon Mark for any of his keys, be it Post-Purgatory, Holy War, Unsealed, etc. It's ok to consider his Demon Mark Meliodas at least 2x above SPECIFICALLY his Base Form

So like regardless of what Base Meliodas scales to, him using any of his Demon Marks is at least 2x above that

Ominous Nebula is just Zeldris' darkness being revolved at high speed to create a vortex, so it'd scale to physical speed.

His physical and regular combat speed do not scale to that however. Like without Ominous Nebula, he doesn't scale as fast

They are portrayed as equals during the entire movie

Went back and rewatched some scenes and you're right

Curse of the Light 1st Demon Mark Meliodas = Curse of the Light 1st Demon Mark Zeldris

Curse of the Light 2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = Curse of the Light 2nd Demon Mark Zeldris

So I am fine with Meliodas' 2nd Demon Mark having the same multiplier as Zeldris' 2nd Demon Mark

It is tho DM2 Zeldris is stated to be 2x Faster than DM1 and shown to be 2x more powerful in this instance

Him stating to be 2x faster and also just happening to scale 2x higher does not confirm that we can consider all Demon Marks 2x Amp to Attack Power

It's a neat coincidence, but that's enough to confirm a dirct uniform multiplier

Mhmh that’s basically what we would get stacking DM2 on DM1 lol

So you agree with...

Base Meliodas = 1 Megaton

1st Demon Mark Meliodas = 2 Megatons

2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

3rd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

ON is his combat speed litteraly

Not his base speed. He was equal to Ludoshel in Base combat speed. OM is a separate speed rating the same way it's a separate AP rating

I see your point tho it’s quite different with the feats we use

It's similar

魔神族の力の解放で暴走状態となってしまったトリスタンが参戦。

Tristan, who went out of control as a result of the release of the demonic race's power, has entered the war.

This does not confirm that all Demon Marks are a uniform amp at all. All this says is that Demon Marks are a Demon Race's Power... I do however agree with Meliodas and Zeldris' Demon Marks being equal

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

It’s quite obvious that the author make 0 différence between Demon Marks

I mean there is 0 reason to assume Mel’s DM1 would be different than Zel’s etc…
You’Ve argued against Mitch and won this point already but i thought it Would be better to show an author statement as Additional proof

DM1 should be used to the same extent for every demons

DM2 should be used to the same extent for every demons

DM2 should be 2x AP at least in Zel’s case Using his feats as evidence

DM2 shouldn’t be considered as 2x AP IN any other situation Using Zel’s feats as evidence as it would go against the rules We should give « Higher » ratings for now waiting for more feats
I still think DM2 being a 2x amp in AP is consistant tho

Here are my current stances

We should all come to this/a conclusion and wait for more proofs we could re discuss this topic later this thread should not revolve around a single subject

Meliodas and Zeldris' being the same yes

However I don't agree to everyone else's Demon Marks being the same outside of maybe Tristan

 

[ByAsura]

All we need are Meliodas' and Zeldris' being the same, and those are the only ones currently being scaled.

We're not saying this applies to Derieri and other Demons.

 

[Makai641001]

Yes, of course. ANY TIME Meliodas uses a Demon Mark for any of his keys, be it Post-Purgatory, Holy War, Unsealed, etc. It's ok to consider his Demon Mark Meliodas at least 2x above SPECIFICALLY his Base Form

So like regardless of what Base Meliodas scales to, him using any of his Demon Marks is at least 2x above that

Yeah

His physical and regular combat speed do not scale to that however. Like without Ominous Nebula, he doesn't scale as fast

He is faster with Ominous Nebulae than his normal speed (in the movie he seems way more efficient with it Using it while flying etc…) and ON doubles In speed with DM2
His base is relative to Lightspeed Ludociel his ON is higher his DM2 ON 2x Faster
Demon mark 2 doubles his speed anyway

Went back and rewatched some scenes and you're right

Curse of the Light 1st Demon Mark Meliodas = Curse of the Light 1st Demon Mark Zeldris

Curse of the Light 2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = Curse of the Light 2nd Demon Mark Zeldris

So I am fine with Meliodas' 2nd Demon Mark having the same multiplier as Zeldris' 2nd Demon Mark

Yeah

Him stating to be 2x faster and also just happening to scale 2x higher does not confirm that we can consider all Demon Marks 2x Amp to Attack Power

Read my message about my current stance i think we shouldn’t use DM2 as an automatic 2x AP amp Using Zeldris’s feats as an evidence We should wait for a statement keeping his feats in mind and Just say DM2’s AP is higher

It's a neat coincidence, but that's enough to confirm a dirct uniform multiplier

So you agree with...

Base Meliodas = 1 Megaton

1st Demon Mark Meliodas = 2 Megatons

2nd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

3rd Demon Mark Meliodas = At least 2 Megatons

Not his base speed. He was equal to Ludoshel in Base combat speed. OM is a separate speed rating the same way it's a separate AP rating

It's similar

This does not confirm that all Demon Marks are a uniform amp at all. All this says is that Demon Marks are a Demon Race's Power... I do however agree with Meliodas and Zeldris' Demon Marks being equal

Imo Tristan statement at least confirm the fact that demon marks are physiology related traits

We shouldn’t regard them as different without any Base they are shown to do the exact same things and are shown to be similar in potency in the only known case of 2 demons being =

 

[Makai641001]

All we need are Meliodas' and Zeldris' being the same, and those are the only ones currently being scaled.

We're not saying this applies to Derieri and other Demons.

Yeah He agreed to their DM’s being the same so we’re okay ig

Thanks y’all but i’ll have to Go to sleep now

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ngl this was quite educational.

 

[speedster352]

Nobody actually has the amp except Meliodas and Zeldris, whose Demon Marks are visually and functionally similar.

And Tristian of course

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think we can say that for sure, as of now.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because Demon Tristan > Enchanter Tristan.

Edit: More substantiation for a 2x amp.

 

[speedster352]

I don't think we can say that for sure, as of now.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because Demon Tristan > Enchanter Tristan.

Edit: More substantiation for a 2x amp.

Also more experienced enchantment user should get a 3x amp since they are more experienced and Lancelot mentions this.

 

[ByAsura]

Where does Lancelot say anything about experience being a factor in the size of an amp?

 

[speedster352]

Where does Lancelot say anything about experience being a factor in the size of an amp?

He did say Percival was an amateur and I am pretty sure if it was just two times he wouldn’t say triple that fact that he knows this could mean that he has the 3x amp.

 

[ByAsura]

He said Percival was an amateur for not knowing how to use it as all. That's not any indication that skill has anything to do with it.

For all we know, it could just be the type of magic and how it's applied.

 

[Majinere566]

Was going to compile a list for notably enchantment uses in taizai but I was extremely busy and currently sick rn

 

[speedster352]

He said Percival was an amateur for not knowing how to use it as all. That's not any indication that skill has anything to do with it.

For all we know, it could just be the type of magic and how it's applied.

It should be 2 or 3x for all enchantment user then?

 

[ByAsura]

Until it's fully explained, yes.

 

[Majinere566]

This is a weird case but, Assault Mode is able to encase his body and weapon with darkness. Do you think it might be a case of enchantment?

 

[ByAsura]

I think so.

Youth DK is comparable to The One, so they'd go from 329.76 teratons to 412.2 teratons (a 25% increase).

 

[Majinere566]

Found an example of mael casually stopping this enchanted chasteifol attack

 

[ByAsura]

That wouldn't get anything, since King's attacks are constantly channelling magic from the Sacred Tree and are infused with Disaster (neither of which are even really confirmed to be Enchanter/Destroyer).

He's just drawing on a lot more energy than usual.

Also, these characters are already on the lower end of 4 to 16 times weaker than the Archangel's vessels, let alone Mael with 4 Commandments.

 

[Majinere566]

I know I'm just sending them here, get feedback and complike a list

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, then.

 

[speedster352]

I think so.

Youth DK is comparable to The One, so they'd go from 329.76 teratons to 412.2 teratons (a 25% increase).

Darkness is a 10x amp though since it’s destroyer type

This is a weird case but, Assault Mode is able to encase his body and weapon with darkness. Do you think it might be a case of enchantment?

That wouldn't get anything, since King's attacks are constantly channelling magic from the Sacred Tree and are infused with Disaster (neither of which are even really confirmed to be Enchanter/Destroyer).

He's just drawing on a lot more energy than usual.

Also, these characters are already on the lower end of 4 to 16 times weaker than the Archangel's vessels, let alone Mael with 4 Commandments.

Enchantment is magic that can’t be used outside of a weapon

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Renji’s Bankai is Power based but the multiplier is used for speed too

No it isn’t, stop using whataboutisms and spreading misinformation about a different verse.

 

[ByAsura]

Darkness is a 10x amp though since it’s destroyer type

Yeah, that's why I amplified it by 10.

Enchantment is magic that can’t be used outside of a weapon

Firstly, no it isn't (but it can be). Secondly, King's always using a weapon and other forms of magic can be imbued to weaponry, so why does that matter to what I said?

 

[speedster352]

Yeah, that's why I amplified it by 10.

Firstly, no it isn't (but it can be). Secondly, King's always using a weapon and other forms of magic can be imbued to weaponry, so why does that matter to what I said?

How strong would Meliodas be then?

 

[speedster352]

All we need are Meliodas' and Zeldris' being the same, and those are the only ones currently being scaled.

We're not saying this applies to Derieri and other Demons.

Since the demon mark multipliers can now be used since demon mitch approves of it only for Meliodas, Zeldris and Tristian what would the scaling chain look like?

 

[Le'garde273]

I think so.

Youth DK is comparable to The One, so they'd go from 329.76 teratons to 412.2 teratons (a 25% increase).

Damn..... So we really doesn't add Percy and tristan multiplier?

 

[Makai641001]

No it isn’t, stop using whataboutisms and spreading misinformation about a different verse.

That’s just constating Hihio and Orochio are related to power more than mobility

 

[Makai641001]

For this part:

This one is going to be more controversial, even to the point where I (who introduced the multiplier) disagree with it. Basically, 2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage an amped cocoon and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times amp (see below for details). I disagree because slicing something like butter isn't really indicative of insufficient strength to destroy it. 41.22 teratons (Country level).

I think AM should at least be regarded as a 2x multiplier.

+Shown to survive the FC’d attack bounced back by the Perfect cube. (We have new arguments regarding this)
+Tristan’s exemple (With a good gap between what’s shown for both situations)
+AM narratively being the demon power pushed to a greater extent than simple demon mark etc…

We should regard all these feats all at once and judge them together It seems pretty logical to at least lowball it to the effects of DM1

 

[Majinere566]

I think so.

Youth DK is comparable to The One, so they'd go from 329.76 teratons to 412.2 teratons (a 25% increase).

Actually wouldn't AM Meliodas be 20.61 Tera and with enchantment, be 206.1 Tera?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That’s just constating Hihio and Orochio are related to power more than mobility

No it’s me correcting you on blatant misinfo that we treat Renji’s Bankai as a speed amp.

 

[Majinere566]

Bringing in other verses really is annoying, the thread is about NNT not Bleach

 

[speedster352]

For this part:

I think AM should at least be regarded as a 2x multiplier.

+Shown to survive the FC’d attack bounced back by the Perfect cube. (We have new arguments regarding this)
+Tristan’s exemple (With a good gap between what’s shown for both situations)
+AM narratively being the demon power pushed to a greater extent than simple demon mark etc…

We should regard all these feats all at once and judge them together It seems pretty logical to at least lowball it to the effects of DM1

I agree with this.

 

[speedster352]

Is it applicable?: As I said before, it's imbued within a weapon and increases the weapon's destructive power by imbuing it with magical traits. So, something like this or this isn't applicable. Additionally, this doesn't apply to a character's fists, as Percival could do that in the first few chapters.

Can you give us all the examples from nnt?

 

[speedster352]

I don't think we can say that for sure, as of now.

But it doesn't matter anyway, because Demon Tristan > Enchanter Tristan.

Edit: More substantiation for a 2x amp.

Also Mael is repeatedly stated to be the strongest fighter in the godeses clan so he should be far stronger than Elizabeth and comparable/equal to AM Meliodas

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura @DemonGodMitchAubin @DarkDragonMedeus

Have you reached a consensus regarding any issues here?