Nnoitra and Kenpachi 6-B rating? also other Hueco Mundo Arc inconsistencies (Sorry, I had to ask)

[CinCameron20]

Okay, I didn't think I should have made a whole thread about it, but I want to touch on the matter of the scaling issues I have noticed in this specific arc. (Note: I'm assuming that we're using the manga primarily, but even the anime supports me in just about all of these cases, i believe)

First and Foremost, Nnoitra and Unsealed Kenpachi both have a 6-B rating, yet I can not find any information regarding as to why this is the case other then circle-scaling. Looking at their profiles, anyone can see that Nnoitra gets his AP and Dura from Unsealed Kenpachi, but when you go and look at Kenpachi's profile for Hueco Mundo, he has 6-B specifically for harming Nnoitra and like-wise for Durability. This makes absolutely no sense.

• Unless an actual reason is provided, both should be downgraded for their respective keys just for Nnoitra being stronger than Grimmjow at the time.

Next case I want to bring up, Rukia's AP and Durability scaling from Aaroneiro. I believe this is wrong for some simple facts: 1) Rukia never once hurt him (save for her final attack), 2) She's only ever implied capable of injuring him with Hado 73, so only Soren Sokatsui should scale to him, 3) Her Durability scales from surviving being impaled by Nejibana--which is ridiculous when you consider it went STRAIGHT THROUGH HER BODY, and 4) Aaroneiro was dominating her in base, and she is in no way his equal. The only time she dealt damage was with her 3rd dance, Shirafune--which formed her blade through Aaroneiro's head.

• Rukia should be downgraded except for Soren Sokatsui and POSSIBLY her Shirafune. Like-wise, Base Aaroneiro should likely be downgraded as there's not exactly evidence that he is stronger than the Previous Espada due to the nature of his ability and Release.

Another case I tried to bring up before, scaling Toshiro to Harribel seems just wrong. Harribel is stated and proven to have held back against Toshiro when they were in their early stages of combat, then once Harribel got serious, Toshiro required Bankai to fight her, but was still injured by her, andwas on the losing side of the engagement. Just before releasing her sword, we can see that Harribel has pushed Toshiro to the ground, and left him quite battered.

• Shikai Toshiro should absolutely not scale to Base Harribel, as she was holding back, and when she showed her true strength, she even overpowered him in his Bankai state. At best, only his Bankai should scale to Base Harribel since he did manage to take some hits and hold his own.

Now continuing onto the released Harribel fight. Toshiro should absolutely not be scaling to Harribel for some simple reasons: 1) Toshiro, despite landing at least one strike, is not shown to hurt Harribel, and 2) Harribel never landed a blow on Toshiro (If anyone brings up the "cero", he very clearly evaded it, with the energy only touching one of his ice wings). It's made abundantly clear that Harribel's water attacks could easily be stopped due to Toshiro simply freezing them and turning them against her, making the fight difficult for Harribel to take advantage of. Even with his ultimate attack, all it did was momentarily keep Harribel incased in ice. She shattered the ice and emerged undamaged.

• Bankai Toshiro should not scale to Released Harribel. He is never shown taking an attack from her, and he never once dealt damage to her.

I wont talk about the 3v1 fight that ensues afterwards, as it's mostly off-panel, and most of what we see is a gag. It's inconsistent for Shikai Toshiro to suddenly assist in combating a released Harribel when even his Bankai failed to do anything to her.

I'm sure there might be other cases I missed, but these 6 characters specifically had me confused.

Conclusion:

Nnoitra: Released State downgraded to being above Released Grimmjow. So, At least High 6-C

Kenpachi: Unsealed State scaling from defeating Nnoitra. At least High 6-C

Rukia: Downgraded, but her Soren Sokatsui should scale to being capable of harming Aaroneiro. so "X, 6-C with Soren Sokatsui"

Aaroneiro: Either remains the same, or his Base form be downgraded unless there's a reason other than what is provided on his profile (considering the fact that some previous Espada were only demoted due to misbehavior... GRIMMJOW)

Toshiro: Shikai and Bankai both downgraded. Bankai scaling from Base Harribel since he took some hits from her and held his own... Should not scale to released Harribel since he could not harm her at all, and didn't take a strike from her.

Harribel: Stays the same

Sorry if this seems like a mess, I don't know where the downgraded characters would exactly be placed (except Ken and Noi)

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Kenpachi and Nnoitra

I believe this is a mess from the descriptions not being accurate and why it comes across as circular scaling.

Nnoitra is 6-B in durability from being above the Espada in durability per the manga, databooks, and novels.

Kenpachi is 6-B in AP from hurting Nnoitra, since Nnoitra clashes

Toshiro and Harribel
Toshiro is rated as possibly 6-B since he would have possibly killed Harribel with his ice flower ability. She was saved by Wonderweisse, thus it's only speculation he was going to kill her and she couldn't break out his ice.

Rukia and Aarronniero
Doesn't surviving still scale her to Aarronniero per wiki standards?

But yeah, otherwise we would only scale her through speed, Shirafune and Soren Sokatsui.

 

[MiraiTori]

I have a question. Where come from the relativistic speed of kenpachi without the eyepatch ?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Imade

Regarding Kenpachi and Nnoi: That is fine as long as the profiles are changed to make this understandable.

• One slight issue though: If Nnoi is scaling from his Durability, I see an issue in scaling here as, since he scales above Yammy in Durability, that means the same applies for his AP too, correct? Therefore, Nnoitra would be stronger than the 5 ranks above him logically...

Regarding Toshiro: I do not see why people assume Wonderweiss' scream saved Harribel from the ice, especially since she was not damaged regardless. Neither Barragan nor Harribel made a move until after Wonderweiss showed up, and both of them were unaffected by their respective Captain's ability. And even if we assume that Harribel was helpless, Toshiro's AP should still be downgraded EXCEPT for his ice flowers since that's the only thing that even affected her in the first place.

Regarding Rukia: Working through an injury is a Stamina feat, not a Durability feat. If a character literally breaks your weapon then proceeds to pierce you (completely) with the same attack, you are surely not scaling to that attack. So yeah, she needs to be downgraded except for her 2 specific attacks that actually are claimed and proven respectively to hurt him.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Nope Nnoitra is a tank, so he'd scale below his own Durability. An example is the short skirmish he had with Nel.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Nnoitra should really scale below his Dura. He was noted to have the strongest Hierro. His entire fight with Nel was basically him just tanking until she reverted back.

As for Toshiro, I think that only his Ice Flowers should possibly scale. I mean, Harribel had him on the defensive the entire time and she was also able to deal with Bankai Toshiro, Mask Lisa with Shikai and Hiyori with Shikai all at once until Aizens betrayed her. Toshiro can fight her but he's more than likely inferior, all things considered.

 

[M11UTD]

Nnoi scaling below his durability doesn't make sense, because it'll mean he can't hurt himself. But we already saw him clashing and blocking attacks that can hurt him, and he needs equal force to these attacks to block them.

 

[USklaverei]

@Imade
Regarding Kenpachi and Nnoi: That is fine as long as the profiles are changed to make this understandable.

• One slight issue though: If Nnoi is scaling from his Durability, I see an issue in scaling here as, since he scales above Yammy in Durability, that means the same applies for his AP too, correct? Therefore, Nnoitra would be stronger than the 5 ranks above him logically...

Regarding Toshiro: I do not see why people assume Wonderweiss' scream saved Harribel from the ice, especially since she was not damaged regardless. Neither Barragan nor Harribel made a move until after Wonderweiss showed up, and both of them were unaffected by their respective Captain's ability. And even if we assume that Harribel was helpless, Toshiro's AP should still be downgraded EXCEPT for his ice flowers since that's the only thing that even affected her in the first place.

Regarding Rukia: Working through an injury is a Stamina feat, not a Durability feat. If a character literally breaks your weapon then proceeds to pierce you (completely) with the same attack, you are surely not scaling to that attack. So yeah, she needs to be downgraded except for her 2 specific attacks that actually are claimed and proven respectively to hurt him.

I AGREE

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

When it comes to Halibel vs Toshiro i shall recite the great words of wisdom of Madara Uchiha..."What Kind of adult would fight seriously against a child"

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Toshiro took/blocked/froze a Cascada, which is one of her most powerful attacks/the most powerful attack from her that we know of. If he blocked the force, he scales, and if he was able to freeze it and negate any of the damage she would've given him, his ice can stop and instantly freeze an attack with that much energy being directed at him. https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...free2/chapter_357_the_colossus_of_fear/21.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/4.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/5.jpg

Toshiro was able to take a point blank Cero from Halibel with only damage to his Ice wing

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/17.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/18.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/19.jpg

And the last thing to note is that Toshiro himself wasn't going all out and was holding back when he was in Bankai up until the very end. In fact, he purposely let himself get worn down and beaten up to some extent so that his strength would be nerfed enough to go all out without killing all of his allies. And when he did actually use Tenso Jurin, both Stark and Halibel were visibly surprised and then he proceeded to one shot incap her. This was the first time in the series he actually tried using this technique/his full power in Bankai

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/20.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/6.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/7.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/8.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/9.jpg

Based on what he said here, if he used this ability when he had more/all of his ice petals, it would've been even stronger. And as shown in his profile, him using Tensho Jurin isn't considered anything different from his normal AP. It's actually where his baseline power scales from. So his full power in Bankai should scale to/above the power he used to incap/seal as he wasn't at full power when he used it. And if his baseline power scales from TJ, yet he never used it in Bankai before, this is technically the first time we've seen him use his full power/potential.....ever

Supporting feat in the fight being Halibel and Toshiro being able to manipulate each other's ice/water attacks before Toshiro used his full power , and Halibel even saying his ice attacks won't work since they were at a stalemate power manipulation wise and she could just melt/boil his ice

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...free2/chapter_357_the_colossus_of_fear/20.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/6.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...or_free2/chapter_358_king_of_the_clouds/7.jpg

But after he uses his full power/TJ in Bankai, she was unable to do anything against his ice, implying he was stronger than her at this moment

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/11.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/12.jpg

https://s7.mkklcdnv7.com/**********...r_free2/chapter_359_the_frozen_obelisk/13.jpg

She was actively trying not to get caught/hit, and she failed to do so, so saying she wasnt trying to get out of HH and that we don't know if Wonderweiss really saved her isn't too valid.

 

[ExSENNA]

Halibel was potrayed as being both stronger and faster than Toshiro in the whole fight. Ice flower is something of a sealing ability I'm not sure if that can be scald to his AP. Also after Wonderweiss saved Halibel she fought against Toshiro, Lisa and Hiyori all at once

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Halibel was potrayed as being both stronger and faster than Toshiro in the whole fight. Ice flower is something of a sealing ability I'm not sure if that can be scald to his AP. Also after Wonderweiss saved Halibel she fought against Toshiro, Lisa and Hiyori all at once

Faster and stronger when he was holding back and not using his full power. Once he did, she couldn't affect his ice and immediately lost. And in the rematch she fought Shikai Toshiro with the other 2

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Shikai Toshiro is no different than Bankai Toshiro aside from having better abilities in Bankai than Shikai

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Attack Potency: Mountain level+ (Showcased Tenso Jurin, which allows Toshiro to manipulate the weather) | Mountain level+, Island level with Bankai' (Fought and defeated a Resurrección Luppi) | Possibly Large Island level (Fought a bit against a non-serious Harribel but was overwhelmed once she got serious), possibly Country level with Bankai (Fought against a Resurrección Harribel) | Large Island level (Far more powerful than pre-timeskip due to intense training. This is proven by the fact that even in Shikai, he is capable of pressuring and injuring Sternritter with reiatsu levels enough to handle his own immature Bankai), higher with Bankai | Country level (Could freeze and cleave through a Vollständig Gerard's Hoffnung, while Kenpachi could barely nick a God Size Gerard's Hoffnung even with his Shikai and eyepatch removed)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Jo-Smooth - 1) I don't believe I need to remind you that Toshiro and Harribel's water/ice related abilities were not effective tools against eachother due to how each have the ability to freeze and melt respectively. Now, freezing part of Harribel's Cascada to shrug off the brunt of the rest of it should not even scale to his AP considering he froze PART of her own attack in order to turn her own attack against itself. (Ignoring the anime depiction of him just forming a wall, which is inconsistent and contradicts what he says after)

2) All we know is the Cero hit his wing. We do not once see him engulfed in the Cero. He either evaded, and even if he didn't, if the wing could not withstand the impact, why would his durability scale?

3) Hyoten Hakkaso doesn't even hurt Harribel, so i don't feel a need to discuss the matter further. Also, having more pedals would not have made the attack more powerful--that's a blatant misunderstanding of his Bankai.

4) All Harribel even says is "If you can freeze my attacks, then obviously I can melt yours" Nothing about this implies a stalemate, just confirms that their respective powers apply counters against the other's abilities.

5) She was about to use her melting ability, but then got frozen over. You say she wasn't trying to get hit, but she didn't even move an inch from her possition. She's undamaged from HH. Saying Wonderweiss freed Harribel is exactly the same as saying Barragan was frozen in the giant smoke cloud. Literally moments passed between Harribel and Barragan getting hit by Toshi/Soi's Bankai before this even happened. Nothing implies Wonderweiss' scream actually destroyed the ice. Harribel didn't even look phased the moment she emerged from the ice anyways, so you mean to tell me she was in there completely helpless and was completely unmoved by that? Toshiro notes that "once the 100th flower blooms, your life will have faded", apparently not~.

Wonderweiss screaming is literally a signal to "wrap things up" as Stark heavily implies. "Him being here means that Aizen has lost patience"

Otherwise, GG Base Wonderweiss scream from a mile away is >>>> Toshiro's full power?

 

[Jo-Smooth]

1.) If he was able to freeze and neg the damage of her attack to the point he was unharmed, he was able to completely stop the amount of force/ap behind that attack

2.) I showed the panel and we see his silhouette/shading in there. The wing stopped the attack from hitting his body. He took no damage to himself and just to his wing. If you say that he mostly dodged the attack, then his speed definitely got a large boost to be able to keep up with and even blitz her at the beginning of the fight. Though saying his Bankai just boosts his speed would be contradicted by him getting stronger when using his Bankai in fights. His ice is created through his Reiatsu which is what his AP essentially is, and more ice means he's outputting more Reiatsu. If he didn't get any boosts then his Ice would be the same strength as his shikai, and more attacks of the same level against someone who's stronger wouldn't do anything or make a difference.

3.) It's not an attack that's supposed to do damage per say. His attacks that encase you in ice usually don't damage unless he shatters you. Like Ryusenka. But that's aside from the point. The attack incapacitated her and she was stuck until Wonderweiss let her out. She lost the 1 v 1 the moment Hitsugaya stopped holding back. Like not even I said, but like what he said, he was stalling for the ice petals to get to about half their number count or less so that he could use his Bankai's full potential in it's immature state for the first time ever without worrying about killing all of his allies. Both Stark and Halibel were visibly shocked when he started. And even then Toshiro let himself get weakend before using it. Based on the context, it would be more powerful and by extension harder to control if he used TJ from the start. He'd be able to get Halibel, but wouldn't be able to stop himself from killing the other shinigami in the whatever mile radius

4.) and 5.) They were able to countner each other before Toshiro started using his full power. The difference in strength was in Halibel's favor, but not so much so that Toshiro was completely unable to deal with her attacks. Bleach battles for the most part are battles of Reiatsu. They were comparable enough for him to be able to stop and turn some of her attacks against her, and she was able to do the same for him. When freezing her stuff, stopping them, and sending them back, he'd also have to stop the energy/AP behind them to both freeze and stop them at once but that's a whole next thing.

Main point is, once he stopped purposefully supressing himself, she wasn't able to do anything to melt or stop his ice. We see in the panel she tries it, the first ice petal forms on her weapon, not her body or anything yet. But she still wasn't able to stop the rest from freezing her over entirely. The fact that she had to be saved to escape from both story portrayal and typical logic of a fight shows that she lost to him. And the reason was being unable to stop that attack. Once Toshiro used his full potential, all that was needed was 1 move to take her. Essentially a one shot/seal/incap. Wonderweiss screaming to wrap things up doesn't change anything. When they fought right after, Toshiro was in shikai, and the other 2 were assisting him. He didn't have the bankai + TJ amps. And Aizen got her out of the way anyways

 

[NumNumNummerz]

On the nori sunject: If he is 6-B for having the hardest skin of the espada, then shouldn't he be High-6-C in base, scaling above the top crop?

 

[Damage3245]

> Nnoi scaling below his durability doesn't make sense, because it'll mean he can't hurt himself.

Why would this be a problem?

 

[Ovy7]

^That. It's not like Nnoitra is the only one with dura>AP, VL Ichigo is another example (no-selling his own Cero at point blank range).

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Released Yammy is the exact same too. 50% Bankai Ichigo eats his normal attacks no diff but Masked Black Getsuga only puts a scratch on his Hierro.

 

[NumNumNummerz]

The issue is that he never made a distiction between his released form and his base form, simply stating 'his was the hardest'. If that's true his dura would be high-6-C Zaraki could cut him so Zaraki would be high-6-C AP. You could argue that nori wouldn't have to have high-6-C ap because he didn't hurt Zaraki after he really got going, but at the very least his durability would have to change and all those who scale to it. *

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

That is why I always say Nnoitora has the most developed Hierro rather than the absolute hardest