Ninjago's Tiering Problem

[Sparkive]

Doesn't apply to Ninjago, ur using a whole different verse for your reasoning

Why? I'm not telling you "look, this verse does it, so it's the same here" but rather "this wiki sometimes accepts that some abilities and resistances are higher than the character tier, take 2 examples that I'm not lying" I'm not that idiot

How do you know she had no training with her powers, she was able to use them pretty well in both DR S1 against the monster and DR S2 against Cinder and the Wolf Mask army

I haven't been able to see anything after Season 1 of Dragon Rising (I blame the University and living in Ecuador), but she lived in a society that didn't act in general, only wrote, in fact she denied her powers, thinking that if they discovered her they might vote her out of the kingdom.
It seems unlikely to me that she trained them prior to chapter 5, much less that she did it at the level of the ninjas

 

[Robespierre_Isidore]

Yet when the weapons were reforged in S10, Nya couldn’t do anything with the scythe because it was linked to Cole’s Earth power.

holy crap you've come out of the perpetual bumping of the KFP CRT of yours.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Agreed.

 

[Minaaaa]

And I explained how outliers work in general, but if you want to run Outlier page, then sure:

1. Golden Weapons altogether have little-to-no AP feats in general thus this point is invalid.
2. Creating anything is nothing special or unique about Golden Weapons.
3. It is explained by the fact that the power of all four (not eight) Golden Weapons made this feat, not just one:
4. It does not break anything due to, again, having little-to-no AP feats.
5. I see no reason why this criteria fits here as it goes with narrative: it was shown that star was created by that incident, and Golden Weapons surviving also fits the narrative due to Rebooted.

1. We literally have multiple feats of the weapons, i put them in the op man.
2. Creating an entire star would be special and unique due to its previous feats
3. Again, talked about this in the op
4. Same as this one
5. This was just not the point of the outlier post

Yes, and you are ignoring the fact that Megaweapon was destroyed prior to collision effectively contributing nothing to the other four Golden Weapons Creation feat. If you say that Megaweapon was not destroyed, then you are saying me Ninjas were blasting Megaweapon with Golden Weapons for nothing and that time paradox solved itself, which breaks the established narrative in Seasons 2-3. If you are saying that Megaweapon was destroyed, then what’s the problem?

The MW wasnt destroyed before going into space, literally nothing supports this. Even Garmadon's statement, which i know youre gonna bring up, doesnt support this. The weapons cant collide with nothing

 

[Minaaaa]

Yet when the weapons were reforged in S10, Nya couldn’t do anything with the scythe because it was linked to Cole’s Earth power.

They werent as powerful then as they were reforged from the golden armor

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Ur arguing that the MW being destroyed and the GW not fixed the time paradox, no one ever says or implies is what happened. But also ur saying its the only way it can be fixed, which is also not the case

Explain how Overlord could use the GWs in S3 ?

The weapons have plenty of feats as i listed in the OP so again, a non point.

This is mere Life Manipulation

Life Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the life force that courses inside living beings or the very concept of life itself.

Again, they both merged together and blew up together in space. I outlined this already. The last point is just a semantics argument

Why were the GWs powers still fuctional in space? Oh and explain why did the GWs only get depowered in after S3

It was literally a full power blast, which he passed out from afterwards.

He got massively amped during that time, he could've easly passed out of exhaustion

Ur arguing that the MW being destroyed and the GW not fixed the time paradox, no one ever says or implies is what happened. But also ur saying its the only way it can be fixed, which is also not the case

WOG does imply it, the existance of the blob in S3, the fact Lloyd didn't died and the existance of the Star does as well

The weapons cant collide with nothing

Collide ≠ Merging togheter

 

[Lloydblitzed]

1. Creating an entire star would be special and unique due to its previous feats

I like how all of this was completly dodged by yall btw @Overlord_Darkness @Robespierre_Isidore

The GWs Star feat is legit one of its only 2 AP feats, everything u said before is basic Life Manip and Portal Creation hax that don't relate to his AP, they don't count

Again here, the GWs only has 2 AP feats: The Star one and the Ninjago Island Creation, further filling this point

The weapons don't break anything at all, weaker beings were shown to not be able to hold their power



Nothing from the narrative supports the GWs couldn't create a star, oh and funny enough, the GWs were visually shown when FSM was stated to have created entire Realms, Realms with their own Sun, stars, Moons and Celestial bodies, so this can actually imply the GWs can do more then just mere spawn Islands

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Dude we literally see samukai able to use them with no problem

This just means Samukai is special, especially considering he has 4 hands.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

1. We literally have multiple feats of the weapons, i put them in the op man.

These are the feats of Golden Weapons by themselves. Altogether aka as a Megaweapon, they showcased HAX and P&A 99% of time they were on the screen due to Garmadon using them basically as a wish-granter.

2. Creating an entire star would be special and unique due to its previous feats

Again, which feats (related to AP)?

3. Again, talked about this in the op

Just in case.

4. Same as this one

There is no previously established power scaling for Golden Weapons altogether. You seem to ignore this tiny but very important detail.

5. This was just not the point of the outlier post

?

The MW wasnt destroyed before going into space, literally nothing supports this. Even Garmadon's statement, which i know you're gonna bring up, doesn't support this.

It does, when he says they used Golden Weapons to destroy the Mega Weapon, we are shown the scene where Ninjas use Golden Weapons on Mega Weapon. Then, and ONLY then he talks about collision, thus meaning collision was after the destruction.

The weapons cant collide with nothing

It was not nothing, it was just a Megaweapon but already destroyed in a sense it had no power. Otherwise you are going against logical reasoning, narrative, WoG and simply everything.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

They werent as powerful then as they were reforged from the golden armor

So do you want to say that Nya couldn’t handle weakened Golden Weapon and Samukai managed three of them at their full power? Again, it’s just about Samukai being special.

 

[Minaaaa]

Explain how Overlord could use the GWs in S3 ?

This is a non point and irrelevant to the feat

This is mere Life Manipulationhttps://imgur.com/a/yeqBsrx

Again, not a point

Why were the GWs powers still fuctional in space? Oh and explain why did the GWs only get depowered in after S3

This is again not a point, the weapons were heavily damaged from that explosion

He got massively amped during that time, he could've easly passed out of exhaustion

If he was massively amped then he wouldnt scale to it due to being amped

WOG does imply it, the existance of the blob in S3, the fact Lloyd didn't died and the existance of the Star does as well

Again, this isnt a point. Even if we take it, the feat is STILL an outlier. Also its strange youre only agreeing with statments that support the scale and deny any that go against it, despite tommy's multiple differing takes on the feat. So either his statements on the feat are invalid or all his statements are valid and thus the star feat is also invalid

Collide ≠ Merging togheter

See the rest of the points i made about it

 

[JJSliderman]

They werent as powerful then as they were reforged from the golden armor

These same reforged Golden Weapons were still capable of giving Lloyd the power to demolish Crystal King, who is a FSM level threat. It’s not that big a difference

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is a non point and irrelevant to the feat

It is?.. We’re talking about what happened to the Golden Weapons and Megaweapons.

Again, not a point

You do realize that HAX feats ≠ AP feats?

If he was massively amped then he wouldnt scale to it due to being amped

He was amped by Moon Tea. I don’t remember any valid statements it was a temporary amp.

Again, this isnt a point. Even if we take it, the feat is STILL an outlier.

Can you stop simply naming everything “not a point”?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

These same reforged Golden Weapons were still capable of giving Lloyd the power to demolish Crystal King, who is a FSM level threat. It’s not that big a difference

To be fair, Golden Weapons were amplified by Dragon Form Ninjas and Crystal King’s powers (see “Weapons of Destruction”)

 

[Minaaaa]

These are the feats of Golden Weapons by themselves. Altogether aka as a Megaweapon, they showcased HAX and P&A 99% of time they were on the screen due to Garmadon using them basically as a wish-granter.

The feats of the GW are the feats of MW, as the MW is literally the GWs combined

Again, which feats (related to AP)?

This isnt a point, the feats are still feats, ap has nothing to do with it

There is no previously established power scaling for Golden Weapons altogether. You seem to ignore this tiny but very important detail.

See point above.

It does, when he says they used Golden Weapons to destroy the Mega Weapon, we are shown the scene where Ninjas use Golden Weapons on Mega Weapon. Then, and ONLY then he talks about collision, thus meaning collision was after the destruction.

Already addressed these points previously

It was not nothing, it was just a Megaweapon but already destroyed in a sense it had no power. Otherwise you are going against logical reasoning, narrative, WoG and simply everything.

Again, this makes zero sense. Nothing says it was depowered before it went into space

 

[JJSliderman]

Wait, I saw the justification for scaling to star level and it’s ah.
It’s kinda weak admittedly, it’s just them being next to a tiny explosion caused by the golden weapons being in contact for like a half second.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The feats of the GW are the feats of MW, as the MW is literally the GWs combined

Altogether aka as a Megaweapon, they showcased HAX and P&A 99% of time they were on the screen due to Garmadon using them basically as a wish-granter.

…

This isnt a point, the feats are still feats, ap has nothing to do with it

This IS a point, you’re downgrading their AP here, not HAX. Garmadon has always wanted to use Megaweapon as wish-granter, not “star-destroyer/creator”, etc.

See point above.

See my point above too.

Already addressed these points previously

Didn’t see it.

Again, this makes zero sense. Nothing says it was depowered before it went into space

Garmadon, narrative, and common sense?

 

[Minaaaa]

You do realize that HAX feats ≠ AP feats?

They literally do, in some cases, wdym?

He was amped by Moon Tea. I don’t remember any valid statements it was a temporary amp.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Wait, I saw the justification for scaling to star level and it’s ah.
It’s kinda weak admittedly, it’s just them being next to a tiny explosion caused by the golden weapons being in contact for like a half second.

It is just one of the scenes, the other big factor is them hurting Lloyd, Cole being able to wield Megaweapon without being erased from existence, them tanking Lloyd.

 

[JJSliderman]

The Megaweapon thing isn’t on his profile.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

They literally do, in some cases, wdym?

Then prove this is the case here, and why Garmadon would narratively use them in such way.

 

[Minaaaa]

This IS a point, you’re downgrading their AP here, not HAX. Garmadon has always wanted to use Megaweapon as wish-granter, not “star-destroyer/creator”, etc.

This is a nothing point, Hax can equal AP.

Garmadon, narrative, and common sense?

None of these back this up. Please stop using Garmadon's statement. At this point, you have to be purposfully not understanding the scene nor what he is saying.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

They literally do, in some cases, wdym?

No, ur not getting an AP rating for bringing humans back to life

 

[Lloydblitzed]

None of these back this up. Please stop using Garmadon's statement. At this point, you have to be purposfully not understanding the scene nor what he is saying.

I like how the show + WOG contradicts you

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is a nothing point, Hax can equal AP.

You must prove that lol, you can’t just assume that. Again, by default, HAX ≠ AP unless you can prove otherwise.

None of these back this up. Please stop using Garmadon's statement. At this point, you have to be purposfully not understanding the scene nor what he is saying.

I literally analyzed his words properly unlike you who simply rejects to accept that due to the obsession of downgrading Ninjago Tier.

 

[JJSliderman]

On one hand I do buy not scaling to star level since by all accounts, the star was created by the fusion of the Megaweapon and golden weapons, and the series has had instances where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts before.

But on the other hand, the Megaweapon and GW fusion is never directly said to be far greater than the sum of the GW and Megaweapon’s power, so theoretically you could just say the ninja are 1/2 star level.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This is again not a point, the weapons were heavily damaged from that explosion

They weren't at all, else their power would be less effective

The feats of the GW are the feats of MW, as the MW is literally the GWs combined

No, GWs got Acausality type 1 which the MW lack, and many other stuff

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

On one hand I do buy not scaling to star level since by all accounts, the star was created by the fusion of the Megaweapon and golden weapons, and the series has had instances where the whole was greater than the sum of its parts before.

Again, Megaweapon got destroyed, Golden Weapons didn’t.

 

[JJSliderman]

But when we actually see the weapons fly into space at the end of the episode, it’s the Megaweapon, not the golden weapons.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If he was massively amped then he wouldnt scale to it due to being amped

Yes he would ? Garmadon litteraly got his own massive power boost at the end of the comic, he scales to that boost

 

[Lloydblitzed]

But when we actually see the weapons fly into space at the end of the episode, it’s the Megaweapon, not the golden weapons.

And when they come in S3, the MW is inexistant, a new star exist in the sky and the GWs still exists as well

 

[Minaaaa]

No, ur not getting an AP rating for bringing humans back to life

This wasnt my point but ok

You must prove that lol, you can’t just assume that. Again, by default, HAX ≠ AP unless you can prove otherwise.

Hax feats are feats. The GW nor MW have shown anything comparable to star level in ap or hax.

They weren't at all, else their power would be less effective

If the weapons changed shape, then they were heavily damaged.

No, GWs got Acausality type 1 which the MW lack, and many other stuff

What? What do you think "All previous abilities" means? It would have it

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I like how all of this was completly dodged by yall btw @Overlord_Darkness @Robespierre_Isidore

Let me make myself clear: I'm strongly against Low 2-C ninjas in any case. As for Star Level - I'm neutral. Simply don't care.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If the weapons changed shape, then they were heavily damaged.

heavily damaged ≠ Deformed ESPECIALLY with their power still being functional.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Hax feats are feats. The GW nor MW have shown anything comparable to star level in ap or hax.

Hax won't help you prove its an outlier. By that logic, I can simply debunk most 2-C characters because "they haven't shown 4D hax feats but only a single 2-C feat, so they are below 2-C"

What? What do you think "All previous abilities" means? It would have it

Its wrong, because the GWs altogheter don't have Life Manip like the MW at all, and Lloyd doesn't remember the MW anymore, meaning they clearly have differences in abilities

 

[JJSliderman]

And when they come in S3, the MW is inexistant, a new star exist in the sky and the GWs still exists as well

You can’t really definitively say that the blob on the comet didn’t contain some elements of the Megaweapon; all that we saw was a big golden blob.

And moreover, why would the Megaweapon be the only one destroyed if it’s equal to the GW?

 

[Minaaaa]

Hax won't help you prove its an outlier. By that logic, I can simply debunk most 2-C characters because "they haven't shown 4D hax feats but only a single 2-C feat, so they are below 2-C"

That's not the only reasons its an outlier. Why are u hyperfocused on one specific point.

Its wrong, because the GWs altogheter don't have Life Manip like the MW at all, and Lloyd doesn't remember the MW anymore, meaning they clearly have differences in abilities

All together is different from the MW, like when samukai held it

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Hax feats are feats. The GW nor MW have shown anything comparable to star level in ap or hax.

Feats must display the same category. If a character’s Striking Strength feats are below 7-A but he later displays 5-A attack, this would not mean 5-A attack is an outlier due to literally not being the same category. HAX and AP are analyzed separately.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You can’t really definitively say that the blob on the comet didn’t contain some elements of the Megaweapon; all that we saw was a big golden blob.

If it was not destroyed, then time paradox would not have been solved (blob in S3 still had GWs properties such erasing from existence anyone who can’t wield their power)

And moreover, why would the Megaweapon be the only one destroyed if it’s equal to the GW?

Rewatch the scene. What Ninjas do before the collision?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

All together is different from the MW, like when samukai held it

This is what I've been telling you ...